hypo gene ?

[cka]

I posted this over at KS, but I'll do it here also...anyone think hypomelanism could possibly be a locality gene? Kathy's sunkissed South Carolinian Okeetee's, Rich's unexpected hypo from his South Florida Miami's, and the original hypo (which I dont know hardly much at all, except from serpenco site)

[Rich Z]

Back when I coined the name 'Crimson', my goal was to emphasize the blotch color I was shooting for. I felt that hypomelanism added to Miami Phase and Milk Snake Phase stock would enhance the blotch color to give some brilliant deep rich red coloration. I was less concerned about the background color, because I had already had my fill of wrestling with that in the Candy Cane project.

But on the initial generation or two, the reds were more washed out than I really liked. It hasn't been until the latest two generations that I believe I am being successful with what I originally had in mind.

Oh yeah, one more wrinkle in all this. I believe I have at least two separate Hypo genes floating around in my Crimson stock. In years past, I would occasionally get a clutch of all normal looking Miami Phase when I bred Crimson to Crimson together, but I just wrote that off as being an example of a really NICE brightly colored NORMAL Miami phase that I had mistakenly labeled as a Crimson (Hypo Miami). But this year it happened several times, and in all cases I brought out those adults and looked them over carefully. Nope! They are most definitely HYPOs. So this is the only logical conclusion I could come up with. Trying to isolate what is going on and determine original ancestry of the animals may take more time than I have to put into it. But this other line of Hypo that I am suspecting has no relationship whatsoever to the line in the Sunkissed (or Sunkissed) line of Okeetees. So to say this is going to get confusing is a VAST understatement.

From the above paragraph, some people will probably likely realize that for the last several years, all of the Miami Phase corns het for Crimson that I sold were very likely het for both lines of Hypo (if in fact I am correct in my hypothesis). Along the same lines, Kathy Love was selling offspring from her Hypo Okeetees (which became known as the Sunkissed - a new Hypo gene), and it was only later on, after many animals had already been sold, that we determined it was a new gene.

The plague of multiple Hypo genes is well upon us by now.

Rich Z.

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Well, the data is probably certainly there in the reptile building among all the record cards and such, but I have no idea when I will be able to tackle trying to unravel that ball of string. It may not even be able to do so with a few generations of more breeding trials. Yeah, like I would want to do THAT!

Scariest scenario: I have one or more hypos that are homozygous for type 1 and type 3 hypo, but are identical to type 1 hypos in basic appearance. Outcrossing them to Miami Phase to make Crimsons, I would get normals, hopefully with a slant towards looking somewhat like a Miami, where all will be het for both genes.

Grow up those offspring and breed them together, getting the usual probability (maybe an increased probability with 2 identical genes?) of some Hypos (again, hopefully Miami Phase looking). Problem is, some will be Type 1, some Type 3, and MAYBE some are both. But they will look identical, or close enough that someone (me!) not realizing there are two hypo genes in that mix isn't paying close enough attention to see any differences.

The next generation is when the chaos will set in when results just don't match expectations. Kind of like what I am seeing now and for the last couple of years.

Is this what actually happened? Beats me. Like I said, the data is probably there, but trying to figure it out will likely be one heck of a headache.

Hey, how about this for Excedrin #9?: How many other cultivars now might have these two hypothetical Hypo genes in them?

Sleep well...........
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As for Hypo being tied to locality, well why not? It would make sense that if independent mutations were to develop, even though they might exhibit basically an identical phenotype, they they most certainly could do so in separate populations. But I have to wonder whether more corn snakes are produced in the wild than they are in captivity any longer. Of course, the largest source of material would produce the largest number of random mutations.

Another factoring the survivability of a new gene surfacing, is how long do you think a corn snake hactching out in the wild that alternates flashing neon purple and neon yellow would survive out there, whereas it would be coveted like a precious gem in captivity? The odds would just seem to favor mutations surviving when they are exhibited in someone's facility.

Oh, one other thing that kind of adds to the puzzle mentioned above concerning Hypos. Years ago Don Soderberg and I were talking about the Upper Keys Corns in relation to Hypomelanism. He mentioned (if my memory serves me well) that he bred an Upper Key with one of his Hypos and got all Hypos as babies, leading him to believe that the Upper Keys was a naturally occuring Hypo corn. However, I did the same thing, bred an Upper Keys with one of my Hypos and got ALL normals, leading me to believe that the Upper Keys were just a different looking locality corn.

How can we both be right? Well, it's pretty easy to imagine how that could be, now that we realize there are seemingly a bunch of Hypo genes out there.

[carol]

Well now, that's not very comforting. ;) I have had to pull out the excedrin myself this season on my Miamis/Crimsons/Hypo Miamis. I have a Crimson female I bought off of Richs surplus list last year that was sold as a hypo, and I believe her to be. I have had some other people state thier opinion that she does not look hypo at all. I just figured she has a less intense hypo that I find rather attractive.
I also have a Hypo Miami male that was so dark (black borders and all) I was disappointed at first. If I didn't know Don better, I would have felt ripped off. I wish I had taken more pics of him when he was young, but I didn't because at the time I wasn't very proud of him. Now almost all his black is gone, he is undoubtably hypo, he is one of the most gorgeous snakes I have seen. The cool thing is, his reds did not get washed out like I see with these "super hypos". It was like it just magically took the black away.
Now like a dummy, not only did I bred this Hypo Miami male to the Crimson, I also bred a Miami to her thinking it would be so obvious who was hypo and who wasn't. :mad:
At first it didn't look like I had any hypos, after a couple of weeks they all looked hypo except for a few. To confuse things more the Miami proved to have low fertility with other females that were bred exculsively to him.
I held back one that was clearly hypo and one that (at the time) looked clearly normal. This "normal" miami was so dark I figured she was definately a normal and must have been a daughter of the Miami. But now after a few months she has lightened up so much and none of her belly checks are black. She has a few dark brown checks and all the rest are light washed out red/brown. She still has black on her, but so did my Hypo Miami when he was that age.
So now I don't know if this Crimson mother is a normal het, or a mutiple hypo grab bag, or if this hatchling is a super light miami from the Miami father, or if it is displaying the "late blooming" hypo from the Hypo Miami. It is a really nice hatchling and I wish I new what it was. I will definately think twice before breeding to males to one female again.
I also have an adult from Rich that was the result of the Upper Keys x Hypo cross. I bred her to the Hypo Miami as well and the headaches separating the hypos from the normals has been a whole different headache.:rolleyes:
I don't know how you have any hair left Rich, I just about pulled all mine out. Gotta love them though.:D
Here is the most recent pic of the Crimson, I have had critics say she is too dark. However I think she is a hypo of some sort and a very pretty one IMO

[abell82]

She is GORGEOUS!!!.About the Hypo gene, I have believed in a number of different Hypo genes for quite some time.This in my mind would explain alot, especially if one or two of these genes do not show any influence right away.Brown Anerythristics,Pastel motleys,and possibly even Carmels.Rich states in his history of Carmels that the first looked like anerythristics,but the few hatchlings I have seen all look like carmels not like anery.s (did an additional (Hypo gene?)get bred into these?)?I have a motley that was as black as my charcoal when I got her now she is clearly not black (color is hard to describe).Is this because she is motley and the delayed hypo gene is attached to the motley trait or ???.