I Feel Awful

[starsevol]

I had a bloodred female that I sold this fall. She hatched the first week of September and I sold her the first Sunday in October. She ate 5 times before I sold her on thawed pinkies. Once she refused but was really really active that night. I thought nothing of it. Other than that she ate easily. When her new owner got her she ate 2 or 3 times I think. Then she went off feed for 2 weeks or so. Then ate again. But now she's refused food twice in a row and is getting smaller. I feel awful. I never would have sold her if I thought she would stop eating. Her new owner has tried all kind of scenting to kickstart her into feeding mode again but its not working. That was the only clutch I hatched this year and I don't have another female to send her. I feel sick about this. Do you think the new owner should try hibernating her?

[Weebonilass]

My personal recommendation would be to get the little girl to a good herp vet for a check-up. But having just lost one a couple of months ago, I'll admit to being rather paranoid about the not eating thing as that was the only symptom my sick one showed :(

[Drizzt80]

The reality of the situation is that at some point, the new owner is responsible for the care of the hatchling. You cannot be responsible for health that would be related to husbandry. If the hatchling ate for them 2 or 3 times, especially after eating for you 5 times, I think that indicates there's a change in environment or husbandry that is negatively affecting the snake. I'd go over all the possible things that could be affecting the eating habits of the snake. Another possibility could be the snake 'decided' she doesn't want f/t anymore either. That's happened to me before as well. :shrugs:

There are so many variables that change once that snake leaves your care, where do you/we draw the line?! I'm NOT saying leave them high and dry, but also don't beat yourself up over it!

D80

[MegF.]

I agree. I did take one hatchling back and worked with it at home until I got it to take 3 more meals in a row and then sent it back. It eats fine now. Remember, there's always going to be one that just is like that. My Okeetees as babies were very off and on eaters. They would go off food for a week or two before shed, and sometimes even after. They eat great now, but I learned not to stress over it. I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. You sold it in good faith and it was feeding. Sometimes they don't. It's not your fault although I commend you on your responsible attitude!

[Susan]

I totally agree with Meg and Drizzt. There comes a point when a breeder can no longer assume any responsibility. I hate to say it, but not every hatchling is meant to live. Some just take awhile for Mother Nature to make a decision on. Every breeder has had snakes die for one reason or another...and sometimes for no apparent reason at all.

And 2 weeks of refusals really isn't that much. If the new owner has tried everything imaginable to kick-start the hatching again, it may now be too stressed out to eat. I would say a brief brumation period may be beneficial...remove the stress of repeated food offerings, rest and quiet and at temps to prevent any further weight loss.

[LindsayMarie]

I am the new owner and some of the information is a tad off. But with as many e-mails as Beth and I have had, I can see how that can happen ;) I have to get ready for an appt but when I get back, I will post from the beginning so maybe someone can help! Hopefully everyone can further understand. Thanks, Lindsay

[LindsayMarie]

Ok where to start! I bought Snoop & Sassy on 10/1 and picked them up In RI (3 1/2 hrs from me), to minimize stress. I fed them both a small meal on 10/4, Sassy ate, but her brother did not. This is the first time I have owned snakes, so I am by far considered experienced or an expert. Anyways, the small meal I fed, Sassy digested no lump in less then 24 hours and pooed within ~30 hours of eating, so almost 72 hours from feeding her the first very small pinky, I fed her another very small pinky (they were gourmet rodent pinks from petco). So we have two successful semi tease feedings on 10/4 and 10/6 (the way the hours fell, it was 3 days, not 2). In the meantime her brother had refused both meals so my attention was on him now. The temps were good 75-82. I bought another 2 snakes on 10/8 that were born a couple months before these guys. Have had no feeding problems with them yet *crossing fingers*. Unless in blue they eat readily, so I am doing something right.

10/6 was the last time Sassy ate till recently. She went a little unnoticed right away as she was going into a shed and her brother was not and he was not eating either! Since she had ate twice when I first got her I assumed she would be fine. I guess I assumed wrong. It took Snoop 10 days in my home and by e-mail he had eaten 4 days or so before traveling. it took him 2 weeks and washing his pinkies to finally get him to eat! I was sooo excited. Knock on wood he has been eating like a champ sense. He wont eat when in blue, but right after he shed, he ate (just likes them extra clean)! Back to Sassy. Sassy refused her first meal on 10/11 and had eaten last on 10/6. I assumed maybe it was because she was in a shed. This was confirmed on 10/15 when you could tell by her skin and eyes. So she was skipped. She happen to shed on feeding day, although much earlier in the day. She shed and I tried feeding on 10/19, no interest. Up till now I had only tried minimal tease (as it doesnt really work for me), but mostly just leaving the pinky in with her as to minimize stress. Tried on 10/21, this timing using a wash method, no interest. Tried again on 10/26, this time I tried a couple methods in one night, with low lighting, no noise, just took out, put back in. I tried exposing some of the brain fluid and then tuna scenting, nothing. Then I started thinking that she hasnt ate since I bought the mice in bulk. I decided to go back to the pet shop and buy the original gourmet pinks I started her on when I first got her. So on 10/30 I dethawed one of these tiny pinks put her and it into a smaller container inside her cage and left her there for a couple hours. I went back in aftre a couple hours and she had aten! YEAH! It had been 3 weeks and 3 days! Not 2 weeks! Unfortunately the happiness was short lived. When feeding time came around again 11/2 she refused the petco pink. Even left it with her in a smaller container in her cage like I had before, this time overnight and nothing. She also just refused on the 5th.

I just want to say that I do not make feeding time a huge, long, trying ordeal. Its a couple minutes per animal, especially if they are having issues feeding. I know more stresses them. I am simply offering them food. Sometimes with different methods to get them eating. I am not even handling them as I am afraid the littliest thing will mess their eating habits up. Even though I really want to get to know them and handle for short periods, I DONT. I have handled the other two, who are a couple months older and eat regularly, but not much.

I know this is a lot of info, but I wanted to give as much as possible in hopes that someone can help. She is obviously much smaller then her clutchmate, who was actually smaller then her when I first got them. But from e-mails I think he ate 1 less meal then her, she had 4 meals before I bought her. With one needing to be teased fed. I was not expecting a problem feeder because she had eaten, you know? Is this common, with hatchlings that are only 1 month - 2 months old?

What else can I do? I have re-evaluated housing, temps, hides, humidity, enclosure location and everything is on. The others are flourishing and I am at a loss. Besides the initial 2 small feedings 72 hours apart in the first week home she has not showed interest in food. That feeding on 10/30 was a shock and blessing at the same time as now I think it gives me a little more time to work with her. I dont want her to die! Any advice to what could be going on, what I should or shouldnt do. ANY would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Lindsay

[sbourget]

First thing, I think you are feeding a little to close together, usually you start a snake at every 5 days, or even a week. it could be that after only 3 days she's just not hungry. so limit your food offers to every 5 days, no less. Don't be overly worried yet, examine her body and see if her spine is prominant, if it isn't then she's not really in danger of dying of starvation. a well-kept snake can alst several months without food with very little in the way of ill effects, even a hatchling can go a full month straight out of the egg without eating and still be fine. Snakes in general have a slow meabolism that allows them to go for long times without food. Giving her more time between feeding also prevents her from getting acustomed to refusing food. Best of luck.

[syschinslater]

wow long story, lol. everything sbourget said is true, also i have read that in feeding problems to scent the mouse w/ anole, by maybe putting some anole skin on the nose of the pinkie....but i agree w/ sbourget, give it more time before starting with another pinkie, good luck w/ everything :)

[LindsayMarie]

Again I am sorry the response post was so long. I just wanted to get all the information out there in hopes of getting some helpful feedback. For now I will offer food no more then every 5 days, maybe more like every 7 days. I will try this for a couple feedings (even buy the gourmet rodent pinkies at petco, that it seems she prefers). If she still refuses after another 2 weeks I am going to have to try anole skin, live pinky or something.

Any other ideas? Advice? If you have followed the story this far, thank you! I know it was alot, but my new little family members are important to me ;) Thanks, Lindsay

[MegF.]

I would try a live pinky too. I had a few that wouldn't feed on f/t for whatever reason. I have scented with anole too and that works well. Just a head's up too, your signature section can't be more than 4 lines long. Rich will end up deleting it eventually when he finally notices it. You might want to use the smaller printing and put it in a line or something so that you can put up all your pets without a problem.

[syschinslater]

:-offtopic sbourget i noticed in ur signature it says a columbian boa, i love those snakes! Someday i really want to get one, at my work we got 2 babies in and they are sweetest little guys, will you post pics of him/her? thanks! :cheers:

[Drizzt80]

If she's eating a certain type of pinky, feed those pinkies.

What are you using to measure temperature?
What are you using for substrate and hides?
Where are the hides located in the cage?
What size cage is it?
Where is the meal being placed when you are feeding her? (besides the separate container attempts)

I apologize in advance if any of these were specifically answered previously, but I missed them
D80

[Joejr14]

Two things:

I think those temps are a bit low. I don't let my hatchlings get below 80.

I would try a f/t washed pinky---with some dish soap. Rinse it very well and offer it to the snake. If that doesn't work, try live.

[sbourget]

:-offtopic alexisXflames, I've posted an update of Tiny here: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=359766#post359766

Hopefully your snake will be eating again soon. Be sure to update us on what happens.

[LindsayMarie]

I would try a live pinky too. I had a few that wouldn't feed on f/t for whatever reason. I have scented with anole too and that works well. Just a head's up too, your signature section can't be more than 4 lines long. Rich will end up deleting it eventually when he finally notices it. You might want to use the smaller printing and put it in a line or something so that you can put up all your pets without a problem.

Thank you for the heads up on my signature! I had no clue it was too long :) For now its under construction.

One of the last attempts will be live. She has eaten 7 f/t (4 w/ breeder & 3 w/ me), so my hopes is that she will eat f/t again. But live is better then her passing away on me. I just dont think I could feed her the live one. Its hard as I keep a mouse as a pet!LOL Honestly I dont understand her sporadic eating? I must be missing something.

[LindsayMarie]

If she's eating a certain type of pinky, feed those pinkies.

What are you using to measure temperature?
What are you using for substrate and hides?
Where are the hides located in the cage?
What size cage is it?
Where is the meal being placed when you are feeding her? (besides the separate container attempts)

I apologize in advance if any of these were specifically answered previously, but I missed them
D80

To measure temps I am using a inside/outside digital thermometer w/ probe from radioshack. I think they run about $15.

For substrate I am using non printed, non bleached white paper towels. Same the breeder had them on and I feel safer using it vs aspen shavings with hatchlings.

I have a cave hide in each cage, but mostly they like to burrow under the paper towels and hide that way. They even make little 'pockets', like dens?

They burrow and hide both on the cool side and warm side. The actual caves are more towards the warmer end.

The cages are Lees Herp Haven Rectangle Breeder Boxs (like a critter cage). The size is 17.75"W X 12"D X 7"H. When Sassy refused her meal again last time I moved her out of this size home and put her into a smaller container I think its about a third of that size. I did this with Snoop (her brother) a long time ago and he is now doing much better. I didnt move her until recently as she originally ate twice in this container, so I didnt think it was a housing issue. Maybe it was? She has been in the smaller container for 3 days or so. She will be offered food on sat or sun, a week in the new, smaller cage. See if that helps like it did with Snoops.

Usually I just put the food near the water bowl on the cooler side. I have tried putting it by their hides as well. With the other 3 it doesnt seem to matter where I put it. To be honest I dont know where is the best place? Also should I be taking them out from underneath the paper towels to eat? Could this be stressing her? Should I just dry it off, put it on the paper towel by her hide (even when she isnt in her hide) and she will come out and get it when she wants? They seem to prefer to lay under the towels vs in the hides. I dont want to put it under towel as I am afraid she may accidently ingest some paper towel.

I hope I have answered everything. If there are any more questions, please ask.

[LindsayMarie]

Two things:

I think those temps are a bit low. I don't let my hatchlings get below 80.

I would try a f/t washed pinky---with some dish soap. Rinse it very well and offer it to the snake. If that doesn't work, try live.

Ok I raised the temps up a little. I have tried washing the pinkies, it doesnt work with her! Maybe I should try the ivory soap as it seems to be the brand of choice? Or doesnt it matter?

Thank you for all the help so far everyone! I do appreciate it. Lindsay

[MegF.]

Sounds like you're on the right track. I just buy a pinky and try live. Jump start her appetite and then try going back to f/t. I usually waited until they were in their hides and then fed them the food just outside the hide. Otherwise, I'd put it under the paper towel near where they are. I don't think the soap brand matters. It's just that Ivory is relatively innocuous and doesn't leave any scent in particular behind.

[Drizzt80]

To be honest I dont know where is the best place? Also should I be taking them out from underneath the paper towels to eat? Could this be stressing her? Should I just dry it off, put it on the paper towel by her hide (even when she isnt in her hide) and she will come out and get it when she wants? They seem to prefer to lay under the towels vs in the hides. I dont want to put it under towel as I am afraid she may accidently ingest some paper towel.
Lindsay, everything sounds cool so far! Wasn't looking to bash you over anything, I just needed insight into how things were set up. I think the smaller cage will be a benefit. It's 'cozier'. I personally place meals at the entrance of their hides/hiding places or inside them. I also tend to feed in the evenings, relatively undisturbed. Joe already covered the temps. I agree with him, my warm end for hatchlings tends to be 83-85, my cool end 78-80. Not exactly on the cool end, but definitely up to 85 on the warm end. The bonus is that she has eaten, the 'problem' is finding the trigger to keep her eating. I had a local person put electrolytes (vet recommended) in the water which is something I hadn't heard of from anyone. Their snake perked up shortly afterwords and has been eating like a champ since. May be an option for you as well.

I personally tend to come from the school of thought that too much fussing around is more damaging then too little. Waiting 5-7 days minimum between feedings is a good idea. NutriBac is an option that can help as well. It can be placed in the water, injected in or powdered on a consumed meal (that's the problem I know), or force fed. I'd recommend the water or injection.

Just an FYI, I have a yearling Hypo Lav which came to me feeding on f/t pinkies, but refused almost since day one. He gladly accepted prekilled live with a voracious appetite. :shrugs: He's up to small mice now, but interestingly enough two weeks ago there was a mouse sized rat mixed in with my f/t mice that I hadn't noticed. On a whim I gave it to him to see what would happen. He ate it. Offered him a rat scented f/t mouse this week. Forgeddaboutit, had to dip into the feeder mouse cage! :)

D80

[LindsayMarie]

Thank you for all the help! I will try some of the other ideas every 5-7 days. I will keep everyone posted on her progress! Hopefully she eats this weekend. I am going to go out and buy the petco ones she used to like, see if that helps again.

I had a question about the water. Right now I am using walmart bottled spring water. Should I be using something different or using grapefruit seed extract? Also about the adding the electrolytes, do you mean the clear tasteless pedialyte for babies or is there an actual electrolyte product for snakes?

If there is anything else anyone can think of, please feel free to reply or e-mail me. Thank you again! Lindsay

[Drizzt80]

Yes, it would probably be best to go with the Pedialyte for babies. Great stuff actually!

As for GSE, I personally use it in all my animal's water (except the dogs).

D80

[Weebonilass]

Where do you get grapefruit seed extraction and to what purpose do you use it?

[sbourget]

Most pet stores carry an exo-terra 'electrolyze' product that you add a drop or two to the animal's water. I personally use the 'Calcimize Conditioner' to condition and add calcium to all my reptile's water.