Help I.D. This Little Guy

[Pruddock]

Well, I was walking the 30 feet from my room to my girlfriend's apartment to watch Nip/Tuck and saw this little guy tryin to get across the concrete. Saw him, scooped the little guy up after lookin at him in the light a little bit to make sure he wasn't poisonous, and put him in one of my feeding cages just to get a few shots of him and try to I.D. the little guy. I live in the Brazos Valley (College Station to be exact) and I believe he/she is a Rough Earth Snake. It may be a little on the dark side but its the only snake that fits the size description and it's a little late in the year for a clutch to just be hatching at this size so that's my best guess.

Tried to get the best shots I could with my gf's digital cam. (she was freaking out of course lol) but here are some ventral and dorsal shots of the little guy. He was a squirmy little guy so this is the best I could do. Any suggestions would be great and once again, not the prettiest or best find ever but not bad for walkin along the sidewalk at 9 at night. Enjoy. :santa:

[Pruddock]

A couple more...

[Pruddock]

last pic...

[chibitamalove]

Very beautiful snake! He looks super smooth and shiny. :D Grey is a cool color for a snake, too. He's so teeny!!

(By the way, you'll probably want to move this thread to the General Chit Chat section. If you can. I'm not even compleltely sure if you can move threads, but I've heard of it, so you probably can)

[lefty_mussolini]

Looks like it could be a Rough Earth Snake, like you say, but it seems to better fit the description of a Variable Ground Snake (Sonora semiannulata). The Ground Snake can be multi-colored and banded or patternless, and is also small like the Earth Snake.

Here are some pages with more in depth descriptions of each:
Earth Snake- http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/herpetology/FL-GUIDE/Virginiastriatula.htm
And the Ground Snake-
http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/pages/s.semiannulata.html

[Pruddock]

Looks like it could be a Rough Earth Snake, like you say, but it seems to better fit the description of a Variable Ground Snake (Sonora semiannulata). The Ground Snake can be multi-colored and banded or patternless, and is also small like the Earth Snake.

Here are some pages with more in depth descriptions of each:
Earth Snake- http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/herpetology/FL-GUIDE/Virginiastriatula.htm
And the Ground Snake-
http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/pages/s.semiannulata.html


Thanks for this input, but I don't think variables reach down the brazos as far as I am. The other snake I was actually wondering about was maybe a juvenile yellow-bellied racer before its started changing colors too much. But thats a HUGE stretch.

[lefty_mussolini]

Thanks for this input, but I don't think variables reach down the brazos as far as I am. The other snake I was actually wondering about was maybe a juvenile yellow-bellied racer before its started changing colors too much. But thats a HUGE stretch.
Ok. I was trying to found where the Brazos were while I was looking around at the snakes, but I couldn't get a geographical location. For future reference, where might one find the Brazos in Texas?

I doubt that it's a racer. Racer hatchlings are fully patterned. It's actually a VERY busy pattern and it's amazing that they end up losing all of it by adulthood.

[Pruddock]

That was my initial instinct as well. I thought I'd remembered reading that Racer juvs have A LOT of pattern and are born with even more than adults tend to have, so I'm still going with the rough earth.

The brazos is the longest in Texas so it's pretty spread out. College Station is at the bottom of the Brazos valley and is about an hour and a half northwest of Houston. The closest a variable ground has been found is about 100 miles northwest of College Station according to a couple of the books and field guides I have.

I'd love to keep the little guy and see if maybe his pattern develops a little more, but I'm more of a catch and realase type of person so as soon as this deathly ridiculous wind we're having dies down and the sun comes out so he has a little warmth to find a place to settle in for the cold, I'm settin him free.

[kimbyra]

My guess is that it could be a brown snake, but earth snake is another possibility. We get them around Austin/Round Rock also. Try posting your pics on the Austin Herp Society forum. They would know for sure.

[Pruddock]

My guess is that it could be a brown snake, but earth snake is another possibility. We get them around Austin/Round Rock also. Try posting your pics on the Austin Herp Society forum. They would know for sure.

Don't browns have than pretty dorsal stripe though? I couldn't find one on him because before I started looking through my Texas Snakes Field Guide I thought it was probably just a brown snake. I don't know...but I'm also reluctant to get help from those t'sippers over there in A town. Saw 'Em Off!!!

[kimbyra]

Don't browns have than pretty dorsal stripe though? I couldn't find one on him because before I started looking through my Texas Snakes Field Guide I thought it was probably just a brown snake. I don't know...but I'm also reluctant to get help from those t'sippers over there in A town. Saw 'Em Off!!!

Aw man, you're rotten! Actually the AHS has some prettty down to earth members in there. Oneof the guys (Tim Cole?) is a guy who is regularly called to remove snakes from peoples yards and such. I think a couple of members live out your way as well.
I think you got it right with the first guess though, rough earth snake.

[kimbyra]

Yep, I checked a link through their site with critters in the area and it looks like you got a rough earth for sure!

http://www.austinreptileservice.net/solid.html

[Pruddock]

Sweet thanks for all the help. And i've gotta be rotten there are too many T.U fans around, us Ags gotta stick together and represent. Ya'll are gonna kill us next week though :( Do you do much field herping?

[kimbyra]

(I've nothing to do with UT, football, and such btw.) :noevil:

I haven't done any field herping around these parts, but I've been wanting to. The guys in the AHS get a few people to go now and then, and I've been thinking about it. They tend to find lots of venomous, and a few non.

[Pruddock]

Sounds a little riskier than I was hoping, but could be very interesting and a good oppurtunity for some great pics. I have a friend that goes to U.T. maybe i'll come some weekend when they go out. I haven't done much around here yet, but I really want to but don't have anybody to go with. All of my friends are freaked out when it comes to snakes, and I'm still looking for some good areas to go. But, I just realized there's a nice little pond about 500 yards from my apartment so I might start snooping around there every now and then till it gets too cold.

[mike17l]

It is hard to tell from the pics, but I believe it is either a flat-headed snake (Tantilla gracilis), or a Rough Earth Snake (Virgina striatula). It appears (again, hard to tell from the pics) that the snake is missing the Loreal scale (between the eye and nasal opening) if it is missing it is a flat-headed snake, if it is not missing it is a rough earth snake. You really need to look with a microscope or something to see it on a snake this small.
Herping around CS, is probably best near bottom lands, going towards Huntsville or out near the Brazos. Good luck.

Thanks and Gig'em

[gwb8568]

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41443

hook 'em.............next year maybe, as this one doesn't matter any more.

:cry:

[Pruddock]

Thats right you longhorns...gotta wait till next year baby. WHOOOP!! Gig em Ags! By the way I forgot to post this, but i checked the loreal scale before I let him go. And he had the loreal scale and he is a he. I did a full check on him and noted him in my handy little herping book and set him free before it got too cold. :santa:

[LynnR]

In NC we usually call that a Worm Snake. Find them under stuff all the time in the summer. :)

[SkyChimp]

It is hard to tell from the pics, but I believe it is either a flat-headed snake (Tantilla gracilis), or a Rough Earth Snake (Virgina striatula). It appears (again, hard to tell from the pics) that the snake is missing the Loreal scale (between the eye and nasal opening) if it is missing it is a flat-headed snake, if it is not missing it is a rough earth snake. You really need to look with a microscope or something to see it on a snake this small.


An easier way to tell is that Virginia striatula has keeled scales (hence rough), and Tantilla gracilis has smooth scales. It doesn't really have the coloration of Virginia valeriae (Smooth Earth Snake). Additionlly, the very pink belly is sort of a distinguishing feature of V. striatula. I think that's what it is.

[Pruddock]

Virginia valeriae aren't present in College Station anyways. I've been fully behind Virginia striatula the entire time and did various inspections of the snake before releasing it again. Thanks for backing me up :cool:

[SkyChimp]

An easier way to tell is that Virginia striatula has keeled scales (hence rough), and Tantilla gracilis has smooth scales. It doesn't really have the coloration of Virginia valeriae (Smooth Earth Snake). Additionlly, the very pink belly is sort of a distinguishing feature of V. striatula. I think that's what it is.


Ooops, I screwed up. I meant to say the pink belly is a mark of T. gracilis. I think its a T. gracilis (Flat-headed Snake).

[Pruddock]

It actually had a very whit plain belly, the lighting in that picture is very bad and it was hard to get the little guy to sit still for a picture. Most of that coloring is coming off of the bedding and the walls in that room. It also had the loreal scale that isn't presant in tantilla gracilis.

[SkyChimp]

Virginia valeriae aren't present in College Station anyways. I've been fully behind Virginia striatula the entire time and did various inspections of the snake before releasing it again. Thanks for backing me up :cool:

I backed you up by accident. :shrugs:

Of course you are in a better position to tell what it was than any of us. We have to rely on the pictures. It LOOKS to me like it had smooth scales. If it had smooth scales, it couldn't have been V. striatula because V. striatula has keeled scales. V. valeriae has smooth scales, but apparently isn't present where you are. T. gracilis has smooth scales, the coloration of the snake in your picture, including the pink belly.

Anyway, go catch another and post more pics. I like the "what is it thread." And I apologize for my carelessness.

[SkyChimp]

It actually had a very whit plain belly, the lighting in that picture is very bad and it was hard to get the little guy to sit still for a picture. Most of that coloring is coming off of the bedding and the walls in that room. It also had the loreal scale that isn't presant in tantilla gracilis.

If that's the case, then I would agree with you.

I thought the pink belly was the most telling. "Snakes of the Southeast" by Gibbons and Dorcas specificaly mention the pink belly as a distinguishing feature. But if it wasn't really pink, then that theory is out.

Good thread, though. I love these little snakes we simply find or accidentally dig up.

[Pruddock]

The most descriptive pic of its underside color is actually the third pic just a little on the side you can see the white im talking about. I don't know...im plannin on doin some more local herpin when it warms up down here. We have a nice little pond and run-off ditch behind our apartment that I wanna check out and I know there are a couple of water snakes around there so I'm excited for spring :cheers: