Too Small?

[sallydog77]

My boyfriend has had 2 hatchling cornsnakes for about a month. One is an Amel and the other is a normal type. The normal colored one eats at every feeding and the Amel is the one we're having problems with. He ate one f/t, brained pinky the week he was purchased, but had trouble getting it down. He kept it down, but it's now 4 weeks later and he has refused the brained pinkies every feeding since then. His temps are about 80 on his warm side and the heater is hooked to a thermostat. This is the first time I've had a snake that wouldn't eat, and my first corn snake. My other was a ball python who ate everything we gave him.

I took him to the vet today, and the vet says his overall physique looks good but he is very small and that maybe a whole pinky is too big for him and that I should feed him smaller items. The f/t pinks at the store are about 1 to 1.5 inches long. Is there anything smaller than this? If I can't find anything smaller, I'm going to cut one in half to see if he takes it. I've read most of the methods here and plan to try them all. How long should I wait between each attempt, and how long can he go off feed before it becomes a real health issue? He is hydrated, and alert. Do stubborn feeders eventually get on the right track, or will they starve themselves to death? I'm really hoping the little guy has a trigger to eat and that I just haven't found it yet.

BTW, the snakes are housed seperately.

[Flagg]

Those sound more like fuzzies than pinkies at that size. You need newborn pinks, or "extra small" pinks. Take a look at Rodentpro.com they have pictures and measurements of all the sizes.

[sallydog77]

They are pinks... they have absolutely no hair, and they average about an inch long. I haven't seen anything much smaller than that. Petco sells them in little "single serve" bags. I might try buying the smallest ones on that site.

[Flagg]

For new hatchlings you generally need the smallest newborn pinks. However, rodentpro only sells in bags of 100 and shipping is pretty high. You might check and see if you have a better pet store in your area, or one that specializes in reptiles. Or find a reptile show, or a feeder breeder that can sell you newborn pinks.

There are other online frozen mouse dealers that sell smaller quantities, even one that sells "growth packs" of various size mice. Can't find the link right now but perhaps someone else here has it.

[Flagg]

Here's the vendor that sells "grow up packs" and smaller quantities of frozen miec. I've never used him, but I think he might be a member on this board.

http://www.serpentpets.net/Feeders.htm#Grow-Up%20Packs

Shipping is still pretty expensive, so if you can find a local feeder breeder or reptile show it might be a lot cheaper.

[lefty_mussolini]

Well, I wouldn't worry about the Corn being intimidated by a large prey item. Usually, if they want to eat, they try at least. A corn can easily take a prey item that is 1.5 times the thickest part of their body. It sounds like you probably have a stubborn feeder. And yes, a snake will sometimes starve itself if it doesn't get the prey item that it wants. All you have to do with stubborn feeders is figure out what it's waiting for. I know... easier said than done.

Lately, I've re-discovered the miracle of washed Pinkies. At work, and at home, I've gotten about 90% of the stubborn feeders to eat using this method.
The way I do it is:
1. Thaw the pinky in hot water.
2. Put the pinky in hot, mildly soapy water (I use unscented dish soap) and swish it around for 15-30 seconds.
3. Rinse the pinky VERY well in warm water, until there is absolutely no soap on it.
4. Dry the pinky off and leave it with the snake.

Make sure to leave the snake alone. If you constantly check on it while it is in with it's food, it might get stressed and not eat. I usually offer the food item at night, and leave it until the next morning in an area where it won't be bothered.
So far, every snake that I've gotten started on washed pinkies has switched over to normal f/t pinkies within a couple of feedings.
If the plain washed pinky doesn't work, I try washing the pink and then lizard scenting it.

Good luck. I hope the little guy does well fro you :)

[dawnrenee2000]

They are pinks... they have absolutely no hair, and they average about an inch long. I haven't seen anything much smaller than that. Petco sells them in little "single serve" bags. I might try buying the smallest ones on that site.


If they are an inch long and purchased at petco then they are definitely still not newborn pinkies, which are also referred to as "reds". It sounds like this is what you are going to need though. There is a reptile show in Overland Park this sunday at the Holiday Inn, off of 87th street. Rodent pro attends there and sells. You could go there and buy a small bag of newborn pinkies directly form them and that way you dont have to pay for shipping or anything. If you can not attend let me know via email or something and maybe I can pick them up for you and get them to you somehow. email me if you need to at Dawn@ vertexfoam.com

best wishes

[sallydog77]

Okay, I went to Petco today, bought the smallest frozen pinkies I could feel up in the bags. They were smaller than the most of the others I've bought, a little over a half an inch long. I bought 2, the other one is slightly bigger.

I thawed one, washed it with unscented soap, and brained it. I then stuck the snake and the mouse together in an opaque deli cup and I'm hoping for some results. I'm probably going to take a nap and check on him later. As soon as I put him in he was already trying to escape.

I'll ask my boyfriend about the Expo... We heard about it a few months ago and we were talking about going any way to see all the different herps.

[Flagg]

If you have access to a show you should definitely go. Feeders will be significantly cheaper than Petco, as well as having a good selection of sizes. Might be worth buying more than 1 or 2 at a time =)

[sallydog77]

Well we went to the show this weekend and got the mice. I thawed a small one and laid it out near his hide and left him alone for about 8 hours, but no success. My next plan is to rub one on my poor unsuspecting leopard gecko. If thats a no go, then I'm going to try live.

So far I've brained them, cut them in pieces, teased him with it, put him in a deli cup, and left him alone, so hopefully the lizard scenting or the live mouse works.

[crosby]

I have exactly the same problem with one of my new young corns. I've tried decapitating, braining, teasing, rubbing in chicken skin (pinky not the corn) and nothing has worked.

The next thing to try is the washing in soapy water and see if that helps. Have not heard of the lizard scenting, does this work? I have Leos and a beardie do you think that she'll have a preference?

One other thing, how often are you re-trying between each attempt?

[sallydog77]

I have washed the mice in soapy water, and he still didn't want them. I washed it in soapy water before I rubbed it on my lizard last night. He seemed interested for a minute, which is more than what he'd done before. However, I left him over night and he didn't eat it. I'm going to try feeding him a live mouse this weekend. I usually wait a few days between attempts, because he hasn't regurgitated any. Should I space it out more?

[BeckyG]

I would recommend it. Snakes can actually be conditioned to refuse food. Maybe if you let him fast for 10 days or so, he might be more willing to eat. Leave him completely alone except for changing the water, then try to feed him. It may work, it may not, but it's something else to try.

[sallydog77]

Okay... I'm going to leave him alone for 10 days, and then try live. I really hope I'm not pushing my luck with him, because this is what I believe is week number 6 with out him eating. I really hope he decides to eat, because I don't want to end up force feeding him!

[PtDnsr]

As long as he's still active, alert and not too skinny I wouldn't worry too much. I had a baby go 7 months last year on one feeding and now she eats every week like clockwork. Also they can get down bigger prey than you think. I had a 3g hatchling take down a small pink that was probably 3/4" long (I'll try and find the pics if you want). Sometimes they will also just decide that they finally want to eat and will take things that they've refused before. Just keep trying and good luck!

~Katie

[lefty_mussolini]

You can also try washing a live pink in soapy water. This has also worked for me when washing f/t didn't. Good Luck.

[Weebonilass]

As long as he's still active, alert and not too skinny I wouldn't worry too much. I had a baby go 7 months last year on one feeding and now she eats every week like clockwork.
~Katie


It's not something I'd be nonchalent about. Our LadyG went about seven months without eating and ended up too far gone for the vet to help and she was five years old.

If a person has tried everything under the sun and nothing works and it's been several months, personally I'd be finding a good reptile vet, even if I had to drive a couple of hours to get to them.

I would find DiamondLil's post on her little girl and read it very, very thoroughly. That's dedication to a member of the family

[PtDnsr]

It's not something I'd be nonchalent about. Our LadyG went about seven months without eating and ended up too far gone for the vet to help and she was five years old.

If a person has tried everything under the sun and nothing works and it's been several months, personally I'd be finding a good reptile vet, even if I had to drive a couple of hours to get to them.I didn't mean to sound nonchalent about it. It was more of the "you'll notice when they go downhill". The snake I was talking about gave me a hard time for that seven months and I was pulling my hair out over her. If you notice in their first post they say their boyfriend has had the snakes a month. To me that's a while but it's not extremely drastic yet. A reptile vet is probably a good idea (they already have) but sometimes vets can only do so much. I'd keep trying but only every 5 days or so so that the snake isn't conditioned to refuse.

~Katie

[sallydog77]

I work for a pretty decent vet who sees reptiles. I trust his opinion, as he a local petstore frequently brings animals in for checkups. I won't agree that the snake is too small to eat a pinky mouse, but I do trust him when he says its not in bad condition. If there is ever anything really serious going on with one of my reptiles that he can't handle, there is a specialist about 20 minutes away I can take them to. She is a member of ARAV and is said to be one of the best hepr vets in the country. I'm pretty well set with the vet stuff.

If I have to end up force feeding him eventually, I will. I've really grown attatched to him even though he's not really mine. My goal is to get him feeding well so he can go back to my boyfriend's house and not give him any trouble. I don't think giving him more time to adjust will hurt, but if I see any weight loss or dehydration I'll be sure to do something. I'm not in a rush to get him back over to my boyfriend's house though. However long it takes and whatever it takes to get there is up to the snake. The snake isn't in bad condition... He's small and young, but he's certainly not dehydrated and his body doesn't look concaved like he's lost a lot of weight. He's alert, and he still feels strong for his size.

[Joejr14]

Imo, 80 degrees isn't warm enough. I'd increase that by about 5 degrees.

[sallydog77]

Okay... bumped it up to 85. Had it around 80 because the other one that is eating was at 80-ish. He's been a lot more active this week. I think he's settling down.

[sallydog77]

Great... Just great. I found some mites buried in the skin underneath his chin. They aren't anywhere else on his body though. I'm going to treat those first and fast him for a while so he can de-stress from the treatment.

[sallydog77]

I figured I'd update about this little snake. He died about 3 weeks ago :(
I've tried everything under the sun with him, including live and eventually assist feeding which I hated doing. The first time I assist fed him, all I had to do what push the head in his mouth and it started a feeding response. That was the only time he ever ate a whole pink for me. I took to feeding him like that every 10 days to reduce the stress, but he just flat out refused and he died before I could even try force feed him with liquified prey.

I treated his mites, and got rid of them.

I found him one morning after work, all curled up in his hide like he was resting. I wish I could have just had him euthanized when he really started going downhill, but sometimes things don't work that way. I had a day reserved, but he died 2 days before. Poor thing. For some reason I knew he just wasn't going to make it from the get go, but I tried til the end.

I will NEVER, EVER get an animal from PetCo again. From now on, I'm going to stick with breeders who know their stuff. His body's in the back of my freezer, I'm going to bury him under some red geraniums when it warms up. I don't think I could give him anything less since I tried so hard with him.

[Roy Munson]

That's too bad. At least you know that you did everything you could.

[diamondlil]

Sorry for your loss, you tried so hard for that snake

[sallydog77]

Thanks for your condolences. I was pretty upset about how it turned out, I was hoping for some miracle every time I pulled out a pinky to defrost for him. Working in the veterinary field, I've seen some pretty hopeless animals pull through and make a full recovery, so that's always an inspiration. I'll never give up on any of my critters.

I'm glad I bought my current snake. He's definately helped me remember that one bad experience shouldn't deter me from keeping them. Now I want more!