feeding inside tank

[THEPETER]

I know that you shouldn't feed inside of your tank/Viv. My wife was asked me why and I coulden't give a good answer. My wife thinks that because she is in a 55 gal. tank that it shouldn't matter. Is this true? :confused:

[RedRaydin]

Well, I guess I'll be the first to support this habit and I will have plenty of critics follow I'm sure... I feed my corn inside his viv. Mostly because I had not joined the site before the first feeding and was not told about it. However, my corn seems to have no problem, nor does this cause any problems as far as I'm concerned. While there are plenty of threads on this site condoning the habit I almost swear by it. I put the mouse in with tongs (and not my hand), so the snake isn't confused and doesn't mix up feeding time with holding time. I wiggle it in front of his hide then place it on his rock in the front of the viv. He comes out and eats and then digests a little, gets a drink of water and then goes right back to his hide to continue the digestive process. It may be a bad habit, but again I haven't seen any repercusions so far. As long as you have a way of seperating feeding from holding and make the two distinct practices among the snake it should be able to differentiate between the two. I think the main concern from many snake enthusiasts is that the feeding in the cage can lead to biting, striking, etc. But again if you are careful I think it's fine. Read up more before you trust one person's practices though. Hope this is semi-helpful.

[TWGarland]

Apart from the reinforcing of possible bad behaviour (that may come from a snake being conditioned to think its being fed everytime and not a handling session) there is also the risk of impaction ( a snake taking in some of its substrate with its food, which may possibly lead to digestive tract problems. This wouldn't happen however if you fed your corn in its viv on a plate or something, but theres alwasys the risk your corn will take the prey off the plate and dunk it into the substrate whilst eating. Someone more knowledgable will be able to expand on this im sure.

I feed mine out of the tank, completely removing the risk of impaction and goes someway to ensuring a calmer dispostion. Only my opinion.

[Leandrae]

I'm still a newbie, but I think the biggest problem with feeding inside the viv is ingestion of substrate which can cause life threatening impaction. All it takes is one piece of aspen, papertowel, or whatever is used sticking to the food to cause potentially serious problems.

-Janel

[RedRaydin]

Also a very good point. So yes, if you use any of that substrate I highly recommend not feeding in the viv as well. However, I use newspaper and astroturf (mix up between the two), this would be why I actually feed in cage. Back when I used aspen (for the first feeding only), I used a deli-cup for the feed. But yes this can be a serious prob. Thanks for pointing that out Leandrae. Rep points worthy!

[Flagg]

I feed all my corns outside the tank in a separate feeding tub. Mainly to avoid impaction risk, but also to make sure they all get handled and it gives me a good opportunity to weigh them when I'm fairly sure they have defecated and thus provide an accurate weight.

[Weebonilass]

I'm still a newbie, but I think the biggest problem with feeding inside the viv is ingestion of substrate which can cause life threatening impaction. All it takes is one piece of aspen, papertowel, or whatever is used sticking to the food to cause potentially serious problems.

-Janel


Exactly Janel. I believe when I first joined the site here, there was a long thread on a snake that had swallowed papertowel, so anything is possible.

[Nanci]

It _is_ a good opportunity to weigh- except some of my guys have been getting impatient and BITING! Not complaining though- gotta love a good feeding response!

Nanci

[bill38112]

I feed all my snakes in their vivs. I place the prey in a container large enough for the snake to crawl into and place the container in the viv. This minimizes the chances of substrate ingestion and avoids the stressing the snake by chasing it down to take it out of the viv. I believe that the overhandling of young snakes is the single largest danger to their health. Many young snakes will be too stressed to eat after being removed from the security of their viv.

Feeding in the viv also minimizes the chance of escape while feeding. AND contrary to popular belief, if you feed your snake in its viv, then it will not associate handling with feeding. If everytime you take the snake out of its viv it expects to be fed, you're much more likely to get bitten when handling your snake than by feeding as described above.

[RedRaydin]

Preach Bill! Lol, no both make very valid claims. It's just that if you feed in the viv you need to take precautions and considerations into effect such as the substrate and not using your hands, etc. That's a good point about overhandling and escaping though, never quite thought of that. I mean I wouldn't want my snake to be outside the cage in a small deli cup. He's fast, if he got out I don't know if I could grab him. He can reach the top of his viv, let alone the size of a deli cup. But hey, I'm not hating. The people who feed outside the cage obviously have done it for a while and are more experienced snake handlers and such.

[Weebonilass]

Yup, this little girl was much too stressed too eat and this was after a photoshoot...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/Weebonilass/Ashlei/Feeding29November2006.jpg


And it was her choice to not wait until she was in the container. And she ate the whole thing in that position.

If I had 50 snakes or more, heck 25, I might have to re-think my thoughts, but I think it's an excellent idea for them to get out of those cages for some additional exercise. They would certainly get more in the wild.

[RedRaydin]

The reds on that snake are intense. Very nice looking. And yes, as we see by many more experienced snake owners, the feeding outside the cage is a very very common practice and one more tried than the latter. those of us who don't were just explaining our approaches and techniques as to how we feed in the viv. The choice is up to the owner after research and such. Good luck in whatever you may chose.

[Weebonilass]

The reds on that snake are intense. Very nice looking. And yes, as we see by many more experienced snake owners, the feeding outside the cage is a very very common practice and one more tried than the latter. those of us who don't were just explaining our approaches and techniques as to how we feed in the viv. The choice is up to the owner after research and such. Good luck in whatever you may chose.

Jason,

My biggest concern is that if, esp. inexperience folks, feed in their viv, they may find themselves taking less time with their snakes and missing potential health problems as they won't necessary have the eye to see something while the snake is in the tank. I find that with the horses all the time. I've pointed out a lot of scraps and swellings to other owners who were in a rush and didn't notice something.

Taking my guys out of the containers gives me a chance to run my hands over their bodies, makes me notice their weight. I look for scrapes on their noses, on their bodies and I notice the temperature of their little bodies.

My eye was developed by a vet who managed a very large, expensive Arabian farm. She understood horses got scrapes and skin problems, but you had been know about it and be able to tell her what you were doing about it. Being surprised by her would bring a lecture that would take welts off your virtual side.

Until a person develops that eye, they are most like to discover it while handling an animal.

Yup, its up to the individual, but there are a lot of pros to feeding outside.

[bill38112]

If I had 50 snakes or more, heck 25, I might have to re-think my thoughts, but I think it's an excellent idea for them to get out of those cages for some additional exercise. They would certainly get more in the wild.

I'm not advocating that one never handle their snakes and I'm certainly not advocating neglect. I just think that most hatchlings are overhandled. I think if you count the posts in this forum concerning problem eaters vice the ones concerning snakes ingesting foreign objects, you'll find that problem eaters are a far larger problem to the community.

Cute snake, by the way.

[RedRaydin]

While I do agree with a lot of your points, my ways will by my ways and yours will be yours. Everyone makes a choice by what best suits their snake. I also believe that handling also allows you to check to see if their may be any mites or bugs on the snake, so I definately agree that handling is important. I just also agreed with Bills point about over handling or excessive handling as a hatchling and its ability to cause stress issues in the snake. But I understand you have a very good eye for your herps and thats very important as a snake owner. The most important thing is that our snakes our healthy and we all utilize all the tools to find the right ways to handle potential problems. I was never bashing either.

[Weebonilass]

I'm not advocating that one never handle their snakes and I'm certainly not advocating neglect. I just think that most hatchlings are overhandled. I think if you count the posts in this forum concerning problem eaters vice the ones concerning snakes ingesting foreign objects, you'll find that problem eaters are a far larger problem to the community.

Cute snake, by the way.


Thanks, I think she's pretty cute myself :)

I don't think you can use what you see here on the forum to make a case for poor eaters vs good eaters... The folks eating good eaters arent' going to running to post numerous posts begging for help getting their snakes to eat. They are going to read them and think "Thank goodness, Cindy Lou eats like a champ." No reason to post.

In my experience, if a person sends out surveys, the people with a negative experience are much more likely to respond than the person who had a good experience.

[Infinite]

Feeding in the viv also minimizes the chance of escape while feeding. AND contrary to popular belief, if you feed your snake in its viv, then it will not associate handling with feeding. If everytime you take the snake out of its viv it expects to be fed, you're much more likely to get bitten when handling your snake than by feeding as described above.

If someone feeds there snake in a seperate container without a lid and leaves them un-supervised then yes, an escape could happen but this is highly unlikely to happen.
Almost everyone (and I know I do) who feeds outside the viv uses a critter keeper with a secure lid. Normally I'll put the keeper on the table and stay and watch to make sure she eats (has never turned down a meal yet) but if she takes a while I knwo I can safely walk around the house and do whatever and return to find her hanging in the middle of the lid waiting to get out.

Also, if owners handle their snakes regulary then they won't be fed EVERY time they are taken out so I completely disagree with that last part of your post

[DaGiant]

Mine are handled DAILY except the 48 hrs after feeding
and they have never tried to strike, my newest one "rattled"
at me when transferring to new home after feeding, but didn't
try to strike.. My yearling crawls onto my hand and curls the end
of his tail around my finger for the walk to the chair..
I feed outside of viv also and haven't had a feeding problem yet
(knock on wood) So it comes down to care and personal options..

[BeckyG]

The most important reason not to feed in the viv is the potential for impaction if you have a substrate that can be swallowed. If you use something like newspaper, there is minimal risk of that. If you use tongs to feed, or handle your snake at times other than feeding time, he is unlikely to develop a feeding response. However, there are some advantages to feeding in a separate container as well. First off, it gives you a chance to handle the snake at least once a week, to check his health, measure him, check for parasites, and such. Also, it is a great time to clean the tank without having to constantly watch the snake to make sure it doesn't escape.

Personally, I've done both. My ball pythons both get fed in their vivs, because they won't eat anywhere else. My corns have been fed both in and out of their vivs, and both methods have worked for me.

[Shade]

My main reason for feeding outside of the viv is so that the snake learns that me opening the viv doesn't always = food. Impaction is always a risk as well, though.

[MegF.]

As long as you open the viv for other things such as cleaning, water, and handling there's little chance of having a trained response to opening the lid. I have fed both in the viv (on a paper substrate only) and in feeding boxes. There are some of my snakes that when I got them, were too nervous to eat in a seperate container. All hatchlings were fed in their containers. With many babies to feed it was easier and I could just put it in there, close the lid and leave them alone to eat when they felt safe. I would check on them the next day to make sure they ate it and remove it if they hadn't. They were cleaned daily and water was checked and not one became food conditioned. My Green tree pythons are of course, all fed in their enclosures and as long as I don't stick my hand in there after dark, it's perfectly fine to go in there and to handle them. I've actually been bitten more often taking snakes out to put them in their feeding boxes than in the viv.

[THEPETER]

Thanks for all the good info guys!

[RedRaydin]

Hey Meg, what would you say to an amateur herper who was thinking about getting a green tree python? Just curious. I know they "can" be a lot more aggressive than corns. My fiance is afraid of getting a python just because you never know how aggressive they can be. I'm guessing I'd want to get a hatchling if I did decide to? Only reason being because we have the reptile expo in prince william county in va here on saturday and I may pick up my next snake. I'm torn between a Lav corn, a black mexican king snake, and a green tree python. Possibly a miami phase, but not sure yet. I really think the green trees are pretty I'm just afraid we would be afraid to handle it when it got bigger and be afraid of getting bitten. I guess I should find a forum to ask more questions about these guys. Any info you could give I'd appreciate. Also are the green trees less aggressive than the baby ball pythons?

[MegF.]

Green tree pythos vary in temperament. I have 3 that are very tame, one is exceptionally tame. She's probably more calm and gentle than my cornsnakes. After dark...watch out though. I have one- a Biak- that is very nasty. Typical of the type. I'm not sure what you're talking about with Miami phase. Are you meaning a corn? If you get a green tree, I would suggest you do some research so that you can care for them properly. They are definitely not forgiving of poor husbandry and can go downhill rapidly if you don't care for them properly. Most animals you find at shows are imports. Stay far, far away from them, especially for a first one. If there is a breeder there or they tell you it was U.S. captive born and bred, then fine. They usually cost a little more. If you want a lower priced gtp you can try getting one from Troy Frantz at Frantz Herpetological. He has Jayapura types right now that are usually pretty mellow. He'll tell you if they are or not. Sorongs, Jayas and other mainland animals are probably your best bet for calm temperaments. You can also try the chondro forums and morelia viridis forums and check the classifieds. I don't know if they are less aggressive than balls as I've only handled adult balls. The adults bite too on some of them. Just luck of the draw. I also suggest you get the book The More Complete Chondro by Greg Maxwell. It will tell you everything you need to know about the gtp and you will be able to decide if you're ready to get one.

[RedRaydin]

Thanks for all the advice. I'll check out forums and stuff and be sure to stay away from imports if I decide to get a gtp. I still have a lot more research to do so it prob wouldn't be for a while. I'm definately going to ask around as far as other owners and stuff too. I'm very good with the husbandry of my corn, but I know that's a whole different ball game so. But I appreciate all the helpful info. I meant I was looking into a miami phase corn as well. I'm prob going to stay with corns and stray away from boas and pythons, but some of them look so cool they are just hard to resist. Maybe I'll just wait a couple of years until I have a couple of adult corns so I can get used to handling bigger snakes and such. Thanks again Meg.

[MegF.]

Feel free to e-mail me if you have further questions.

[RedRaydin]

Thanks Meg!

[Bekah Huggins]

I think it also depends on the size of your snake. To avoid escaping, I feed my snakes (1 to 1.5 feet) in a paper lunch bag, fold down the top, and place the bag (sideways) back inside their cage until they have eaten. When they have eaten, I open the bag and let them slither back into their environment. Its like a separate feeding room in their cage. With my bigger snake (3.5 feet) I place him in a box and put the box back in the cage. Escaping is'nt a worry this way and there is no substrate near their food, as far as handling there is very little and stress seams minnimal.
Hope this helps anyone.

[Bekah Huggins]

Sorry I got off subject on my last post 2 out of my 6 snakes will not eat if I just put the mouse in the cage and I have to keep them in close quarters with their food. one other snake I have would bite us if we did'nt bring him food even though he was handled regularly when I fed him in his cage. Other than health issues, I think it also depends on how well you know your snake and their habits.
Tell your wife thats what they are used to and you don't want to spring any changes on your guys and upset them.