Feeding Help

[BlackAdder]

Hey, I bought 2 normal Corn Snakes at a reptile show in October. One of them is doing very well (except for going off feed once for 3 weeks) and the other is complete trouble. He hasn't eaten the whole time I've had him, so I resorted to force feeding after 4 weeks. I had tried everything imaginable except lizard scenting, chicken broth, washing with soap, in a container, live, f/t, brained. The snake was about 2 months old when I bought it, and that was 3 months ago. I remember being told it was eating well, but now I'm starting to think it might have been force fed the whole time. Anyways, the snake is very small and weak, and I was told to only force feed it every 2 weeks by a local reptile store. It has been force fed 3 times now, but it still doesn't show any interest in food when I offer it, and it seems to be getting weaker all the time. I was wondering if I should be getting it force fed every week instead, and I also read that force feeding it pinky heads every 3 days is a good schedule to get a snake back on track. I really feel like giving up and euthanizing it, but I just don't have the heart to do that. Anything else I should try?
Thanks

[BlackAdder]

Anyone have any suggestions?

[Nanci]

I currently have a snake that is being force fed, and I am at a 5-7 day schedule. Since I am using small pinks, (because they go down easier) there is barely even a lump when I'm done.

For small corns, I think I've read about people using rat pink legs??

I am not an expert, but I don't think every two weeks is often enough.

Nanci

[BlackAdder]

Thanks Nanci. I think I'll start force feeding him every week, or maybe pinky heads or rat thighs or tails every few days, either way, I'm going to start a new schedule for the little guy. The problem is the I can't force feed him myself, and last time I tried to get it done after a week at the reptile store, the guy told me it wasn't necessary, so I went home. I have tried force feeding myself, but it just seems impossible. I tried a pinky head last night, and got it in the snakes mouth, but I released pressure slightly and the head literally flew out of the snakes mouth, like he spit it out. It was extremely stressful and it felt like I was torturing the poor little guy, so I gave up. Does anyone have any tips for force feeding, any method that seems to work well?
Thanks

[BlackAdder]

Nevermind the rat thighs, I just realized they would NEVER fit in his mouth.

[Nanci]

Rat _pink or fuzzy_ leg.

It's _hard_ to do it by yourself. Luckily my snake is bigger- like 22 grams. She'd be eating fuzzies at least if she were eating by herself.

I take the pink and hold it up against her nose and 50% of the time she will open her mouth, and I'll shovel it in. I hold her by her head or right behind the head. She squirms and musks. If she _won't_ open her mouth, I press gently against her corner of her mouth with a chopstick, and when she opens, place the chopstick in her mouth so she can't close it, get the pink, put it in as I remove the chopstick. Then I massage the pink down pretty far, till I am positive she can't get it back up. This would definitely be easier with two people, but I'm not dragging her off to the store every time I want to feed her. I consider it moderately stressful for her at the time it is happening- but I went through ALL the scenting options, and she was losing too much weight. Now she is gaining again. Hasn't regurged ever.

Have you tried yours with tuna water?

Nanci

[BlackAdder]

I just weighed my corns, the problem feeder weighs only 10 grams, while the other is healthy at 18 grams. They are both the same age. Last time I tried force feeding, the snake would not open its mouth, so I slid the edge of a small plastic ruler into the corner, and then pushed the nose of the pinkie into his mouth. I then used a small plastic rod to try and push the pinkie in further, but it didn't work at all. I haven't tried tuna juice yet, does it work well? I may end up having to buy an anole or small lizard to scent the pinkie, but I'm not sure if it will be worth the money because this corn has showed 0 interest in ANY food I offer to it. For me the closest reptile store that will force feed it is 45 minutes away, so it is a really long drive to get my corn snake fed. I guess I'll just keep trying on my own, maybe with smaller pinks or a different body part.
Thanks

[Nanci]

Well, _nothing_ worked for me, or I wouldn't be doing assisted feeds. You just have to find the thing they can't resist. I'm lucky- I have anoles living on my house.

What I've read, here, that seems to work the most is washing/drying, lizard scenting, tuna scenting.

My list of what didn't work- in case you missed anything:

Washed
Washed/blow dried
Brained
Toad-scented
Toad urine-scented
Toad guts-scented
Anole live
Anole-scented
Tree Frog live
Tree Frog-scented
Chicken Broth-scented
Tuna Water-scented
Live pink
Rotten pink
Trying to induce a strike by touching the snake's body with the pink


I think something wooden is preferable to open the mouth with- like a tongue depressor.

Good luck...

Nanci

[BlackAdder]

Thanks for the list, there are a couple things on there I haven't tried yet. I wish it was summer, it would make it a lot easier because then I could rub a pinkie on one of the dozen or so Grey Tree frogs that live near my pool and on my house. I would also have very small frogs called Spring Peepers that would be about the right size to feed to my corn. I've also read that wrapping a anole shed around a pinkie's head sometimes works. I'll have to see if the reptile store has any leftover sheds next time I go. But if those things don't work, I guess I will be force feeding for a while.
Thanks

[Nanci]

Maybe the store would just let you buy a pink and rub it on a lizard before you leave??

Nanci

[djreaction3001]

OK, I'm probably going to get slated for this but :shrugs: , works for me and I don't have to force feed. I have been having the same problem. One thing I have found is that if I can get him mad enough to strike, if he strikes at the pinky he will then eat it if I can let go of it quick enough. After trying the feeding technique where you leave him in a box with the pinky over night I found he hated been in the box and came out striking at every thing that moved. Great, this worked for about a month, leaving him in the box for a few hours then letting him out, holding a pinky for him to strike at, then he would eat it. Problem is now he has got used to being in the box and doesn't come out striking anymore. The only way I can get him to strike now is to relentlessly tap him with the pinky, if I keep at him he will eventually get mad enough to strike. This can some times take 15 to 20 mins and feel like I'm beating him up but hey! it does the trick and no force feed is necessary. Which ever way you achieve it all I'm saying is if you can get your snake to strike at a pinky and let go quick enough, you will probably find he will eat it.

[BlackAdder]

Hmmm, I have tried to aggravate the snake before, but it just seems so shy. I've dangled a pinkie in front of his face and then tapped him with it, but he just freaks out and hides his head. I will give it another shot though since it has worked for you, and maybe keep at it a little longer. Putting mine in the container has no effect on the snake, he just sits there looking burnt out. I have never seen any aggressive behavior from any of my snakes, except one time my other corn started rattling his tail to mimic a rattlesnake when I took him out, but he never struck at me. Anyways, I'll try that again, and the other 2 or 3 options I have.
Thanks

[BlackAdder]

Maybe the store would just let you buy a pink and rub it on a lizard before you leave??

I asked the guy at the store last time about scenting and his reply was something like "Well I doubt the person who sold it to you would have been scenting the pinkies with lizards" Then he proceeded to try and force feed the snake, 3 or 4 times before calling his friend to make an attempt. Luckily the other guy got it done within a minute, then told me to only force feed every 2 weeks, because he once had a snake that was force fed for 4 months before eating. I'm not sure they really know what they're doing.
Thanks

[antsterr]

I see you read my post about my success with a suborn non-feeder.
In this case anole skin was what finally did the trick, but what worries me is only force feeding once every two weeks. every 5 days is probably a better idea. two weeks is a a long time for a baby snake to go especially if it's done a month long starvation. I'd suggest you learn to do it your self, these people who are doing it for you seem to know a little but think they know it all.
I'm pretty convinced that chicken and tuna scent are a hoax. I know pythons often like chicken scent but I've never had it work with a corn snake and just to test it once I tried putting a bit of chicken skin on a live pinky and a corn snake who is a great eater wouldn't touch it. maybe someone else has experienced success but I've only seen it fail.
Keep up hope though. My little guy took four months before he started eating and only in the last month of that did he start to gain any size. I don't have a scale but he was 9 inches long from the time I got him until the third month of force feeding. I really believe that frequent force feeding is more healthy. It know that snakes don't like it but I'm pretty sure it's less stressful than malnutrition or starvation.

[BlackAdder]

Thanks again antsterr, I just force fed my corn two pinkie heads using your method of lubrication with water! I only have medium sized pinkies right now, but I plan on getting some small ones soon to use on my next force feed. I'll be starting a schedule of force feeding every 4-5 days probably for a month, so my snake can gain some more weight. Then I will switch to every week and include regular feeding attempts in between. For my first regular feeding I plan on using a normal pinkie, and if that doesn't work, the next week I'll try a shed from a lizard, because it seems like it will work well. Anyways, thanks for the encouragement, and I'm confident my new action plan will get my snake back on track.

Dylan

[Nanci]

When you go back to trying to feed-

If you're doing the thing to try to make the snake strike, you bump it on the side, not at the head. (Wow- and I never knew you might have to do it for 15-20 minutes, I always gave up, maybe too quickly.)

You could try slitting the pink's back with 2-4 small slits. There's a recent thread about it. But also, I just started doing it, and my normally casual feeders are going crazy. One guy even bit himself! I did it for the first time with the girl I have to assist feed, and she opened her mouth immediately and swallowed easily instead of clampig her mouth shut, musking, writhing around and trying to puke it back out. maybe worth a try!

Also, make sure your FT pinks are VERY hot, like 100F. I have a meat thermometer from the grocery store, digital, and I measure the running water temp I'm thawing in. It's simple. The thermometer was about $9, maybe less.

Nanci

[BlackAdder]

I just got some more appropriate sized pinkies today to use to force feed. I ended up finding another reptile store that's a lot closer, and prices are way better than the other one, not to mention the owners are much more experienced and friendly. Don't know how I missed it before...but I'm really happy I found it.

I think the aggravation method I'll only use as a last resort because It could actually make the snake worse and stress it out a bit more if it doesn't work, plus I have a whole list of new methods to try before that one. Also, I'll be sure to try the slitting method that you mentioned. About heating the mice, why does the temp need to be so high? And do you mean for regular feeding attempts or force feeding?

Thanks

[Nanci]

All feeding. I learned that from Meg. I think it's about the average live body temp, but all I could find was 36-40C, which is 97-104F.

I never could get the striking thing to work for me, either- Addy just acted terrified and Maizey didn't care.

Nanci

[Nanci]

I think if I were you, I'd be doing the slitting either way- because when you look at the study, the snakes put on weight _way_ faster, because they are easier to digest, which would really benefit yours.

Nanci

[BlackAdder]

Thanks for the info, I'll heat the mouse up a little more next time. Maybe the snake will realize its food and actually stop resisting? I guess it would probably also lessen the chance of a regurgitation as well. Very interesting about the slitting method, do you have a link to the study or the thread? I'd love to read it.
Thanks

[Jack B]

I'm certainly no expert and I've never had to deal with a non-feeding snake or force feed but I have one idea that may be worth a try.

I'm feeding my little corn small frozen pinkies from gourmet mice. I get them at petco. I notice that if I cut the pinky in half when it's frozen and thaw it out when I feed her that bloody half pinky she is a very aggressive feeder. It's like she's a little shark when she smells that blood.

The reason I started this is because she had a regurge and I wanted to give her smaller meals to get her past that.

Maybe try leaving your trouble one alone with no stress and good temps for a few days before trying to feed him a bloody chunk of pinky.

I'm not sure how that might differ from giving him a brained one except maybe a smaller portion and bloodier.

May be woth a try if nothing else does it.

[BlackAdder]

Thanks Jack, I'll definitely add that to my list of things to try when I get the snake back up to health, and ready to incorporate regular feeding attempts. I just feel like if I don't get the snake back up to health asap, it probably wont make it. Comparing it to my other corn that is healthy and the same age, the problem feeder is only half its size. Another thing I have already tried though is cutting a pinkie in half lengthwise (very gruesome) and offering it then, but it didn't spark any interest.
Thanks

[Nanci]

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44002&highlight=pinks

Or search for Why Cut Pinks

I don't know how to do the link thing...

Nanci

[BeckyG]

Nanci is right. A mouse's body temps are in that range, so having the mouse that hot may entice a reluctant feeder to strike, especially if the mouse is wiggling. I use a blowdryer to heat mine up until they feel warm. I don't have any reluctant feeders, , but all mine seem to strike harder when the mouse is warm.

[BlackAdder]

Thanks, I found the thread with the study, and it's really interesting. It really makes sense though, as the stomach acid would sorta digest the snakes insides without having to break through the skin first. I'll definitely be using it on my snakes, the only thing I'm worried about is it might make the pinkie too mushy to force feed. Since the pinkies I just bought are really fresh though, they will probably hold up long enough, so it's worth a try.

Last night I wrote down my plan to get the snake healthy again, and I'm confident it will work. I think that once the snake is healthy, if it doesn't start eating on its own, I'll probably hibernate it for a couple weeks, and then try again. Thanks to the people on this forum, I now have a whole list of new things to try with feeding attempts. I'll post an update sometime in the future to let people know how the snake is doing, but I'm definitely still open to suggestions.

Thanks

[BlackAdder]

the stomach acid would sorta digest the snakes insides without having to break through the skin

Oops! I meant the mouse' insides, not the snakes, haha.

[BlackAdder]

Today I tried force feeding the snake again, and I managed to get a whole pinkie down first try! I had cut the front legs off the f/t pinkie, warm it up and then make 4 slices on its back, and it all went down no problem. I plan on force feeding again in 5 days, hopefully it will only take 3 or 4 force feedings to get him back up to health. I took some pictures of the snake last night for reference so I thought I would post them on here so people can see what the snake looks like, and compare it to future pictures. Here they are:
http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/5962/corn1wy8.jpg
http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/9864/corn2ez6.jpg
The second picture is of the healthy and non feeder corn of the same age, theres definitely quite a big difference. I also noticed the bottom one's colors are way darker, probably because the pattern is developing and the snake is staying the same size.
Thanks

[BlackAdder]

Just thought I would post a little update. I've now force fed him 6 times, and he now weighs 12 grams, 2 grams more than before. I'm not sure if this is really good news though, because he still looks really thin and doesn't really seem any healthier, and meanwhile my other corn gained 4 grams and is on the same feeding schedule. I'm wondering if I should be force feeding him every 3 or 4 days instead, because the pinkies I'm feeding him don't really make a bulge, and he really needs to gain some body mass.

[Nanci]

How many days apart are you feeding him now?

My girl that I force feed is on a five day schedule, and the last two feedings have been double pinks. She was 29 grams!!! at her last weigh in. She definitely takes longer to digest now- on one pink, she'd be out roaming the next day- two pinks takes her two if not three days before she is out and about. Other than that, though, she seems healty and normal. It's a way to keep them going and build up their strength till you can get the feeding issues sorted out.

I think it's a hopeful sign that he's gaining at least a little weight for you. Addy did that, one gram at a time, for a long time.

Nanci

[BlackAdder]

Thanks Nanci. I'm currently feeding him small pinks every 5 days. I think I'll try what you're doing and do 2 small pinks, or maybe feed him every 3 days. He also gained another 1.5" since I started force feeding, so instead of the weight going to the body girth, it's going to his length.

Good job with your girl! I was just reading through this thread again, and you wrote she was around 22 grams on Dec. 18, that seems like really good progress.

[Nanci]

I don't think three days gives him enough time to digest. Inez, my baby milk, weighs 15 grams, and she is growing slowly but steadily. She weiged 11 grams when I got her in November. So that's two grams per month. She's shedding every four weeks- so I think that's a good rate of growth. She eats one small pink every five days. _Maybe_ you could do two of the tiniest pinks- but then for sure I'd be feeding at five days, not less.

Nanci

[BlackAdder]

I agree, I'll keep him on the same 5 day schedule, but I'll feed either 2 really small pinkies, or 1 med sized one. I guess 2 grams isn't bad for 1 month, but the fact that he still looks really thin and unhealthy makes me think he could use some more food.
Thanks