Braining

[Monty06]

Ive only been on this site for a few weeks now and Ive been spending hours reading all the posts, one thing though that Ive read people mention about braining their f/t. I just wanted to know what this is and how the procedure is done. Id appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks

[v_various]

I got a scaple at an art store, and I use to slice into the pink's head.

The theory goes it smells good to snakes, gets their feeding responce working a bit better.

[Jrgh17]

Braining is usually done to entice a more hesitant feeder. Basically, scissors (or similar tools) are used to punch a hole in the skull of the pinkie. Some people also rub a little bit of the 'juice' around.

[SkyChimp]

Just bite it open with your teeth.

Seriously, if your snake will eat without braining, why bother?

[Snakespeare]

Seriously, if your snake will eat without braining, why bother?

It also helps the snake to digest the mouse more quickly, as I understand it, and reduces the possibility of a regurge, among other things. I've always thought of braining/cutting the mouse as sort of an extension of the reason for why most people feed f/t--we do it for the health of the snake. We feed f/t to reduce the possibility of the snake getting an eye clawed out, and such things. Slashing the food up a bit similarly helps to prevent heath problems (on a smaller scale, admittedly) by making sure that the snake gets the food digested quickly and can return to a non-digestive (and moderately less dangerous) mode of life. I've always viewed the feeding process of snakes as being one of the more obviously unintelligent designs of nature--there are perfectly logical reasons for why snakes evolved this way, but it's clearly not the best process for ingesting nutrition that evolution has given rise to. Isn't it a bit perverse that we spend so much time wringing our hands about feeding habits, especially when acquiring a new snake, or moving up to a larger mouse? So we cut the mice to help mitigate the problems unique to a snake's eating habits.

One might make a parallel to childbirth in humans. It's a ridiculously dangerous process, mainly because of the evolution of our big brains that have trouble passing through a birth canal designed to accommodate primates with smaller brains, and it's only with the advent of modern medicine that childbirth has become a relatively safe affair. Going to a hospital might not be the most natural way to have a baby, but we do it because we know that this hospital will do a better job of protecting the health of the baby and the mother than nature will.

So cut the mouse, I say. It won't hurt it. And it might even do your snake some good. Kids seem to enjoy the preprandial brain gush, too.

And I happily defer to anyone who knows more about evolutionary biology (or snake eating conditions, for that matter) than I do on any of the above points.

[Monty06]

Ok, thank you for the input guys, I now have a better understanding of the term, I hope this helps out others as well as myself.

[SkyChimp]

Why is digesting a mouse more quickly important? If it's to get them out of a "vulnrerable" state, what significance has that in a captive setting? I'd hazard to say that if "digesting more quickly" is the goal of feeder, it's more likely due to a desire to feed the snake more often.

[Jrgh17]

It's my personal theory that slitting or braining reduces regurges. "Digestive juices" have a greater surface area to work with and better access to the inner tissues. Someone did a study which showed that slitting mice also had an increase in growth rate. I slit my mice when I feed. I don't do it so I can have a 3-day feeding schedule (which I don't have, btw).

[Snakespeare]

Why is digesting a mouse more quickly important? If it's to get them out of a "vulnrerable" state, what significance has that in a captive setting? I'd hazard to say that if "digesting more quickly" is the goal of feeder, it's more likely due to a desire to feed the snake more often.

I don't think there's anything in my initial post that suggested that I was advocating powerfeeding.

It's not so much that digesting quickly is important, but that digesting too slowly increases the chances of a regurge (because the mouse rots before it is digested, because the mouse is a bit too big, because an owner handles the snake a bit too soon after feeding, or because of some sort of stress visited upon the snake during the period of digestion--power goes out, temps plummet, etc.). I'd prefer to err on the side of whatever practices will help to reduce or eliminate the possibility of a regurge. A cursory glance at the numerous regurge threads on this forum would seem to indicate that a snake's vulnerability during the digestion period is not an issue for wild snakes alone.

[Snakespeare]

Someone did a study which showed that slitting mice also had an increase in growth rate.

Interesting--thanks so much for sharing this. This makes sense--a snake eating cut mice will presumably spend less energy/calories digesting, and will therefore lose less weight during the process of digestion? In which case the snake could probably be fed LESS often? Or the extra energy might be channeled into exercise, which would improve the snake's muscle tone more than sitting around in a hide trying to burn off a mouse would? I suspect the extra energy also contributes generally to the snake's health by keeping the immune system in good order and such things.

Just wondering out loud.

[DogStar5988]

It seems to me that the whole point of having a hatchling is to see it grow and develop into an adult. So can you really blame someone for wanting to safely speed up the process? I am not advocating powerfeeding because it has negative effects, but if it was a safe process I wouldn't see a problem with it at all IMO.


---Kenny

[snakemom1961]

I think the "braining or slitting" makes digestion easier so the snake not only grows faster but also lowers the risk of regurges. I personally don't slit grown mice buy my daughter slits pinkies and fuzzies for our babies. It's not to make them grow faster but to help them digest so we have fewer worries towards regurges, which I want to avoid at all costs. I feel once the snake is an adult and you've not had regurges you probably won't have to worry so much about that happening unless there's another underlying problem. But that's JMHO.

[SkyChimp]

I'm just wondering why someone would want to speed up the growth process? I mean if you wanted a big snake fast, wouldn't you have purchased a big snake?

I also don't understand why there are so many reports of regurgitation. I see posts telling of very frequent and heavy feeding schedules. I see people saying they don't bother to monitor ambient temperatures. Too frequent or too heavy feeding, or ambient temperatures that are out-of-whack, can all lead to regurgitation. I'd bet most regurgitation problems are related to poor feeding/husbandry practies. I'd suggest correcting those practices before trying to overcome them by cracking the skull of the mouse. Somehow, some way, wild snakes survive and thrive and don't have the luxury of cracked-mouse.

If you have a snake that is regurgitating, it ain't regurgitating because you are feeding it a mouse with an intact skull. And cracking the skull doesn't fix the underlying problem that is causing the regurgitations.

[Jrgh17]

You're right, regurgitation is mainly caused by bad husbandry. I'm not saying that if your snake regurges, you should cut it up and the problem will be instantly fixed. In the wild, it's possible that snakes do have the luxury of a mouse with broken skin, due to biting the prey. I don't really worry about my ambient temps. I make sure the temp at the glass is okay, and I count on the animals to do the rest themselves.

Slitting is more of a fail-safe. I'm gone for anywhere from 4 hours a day to 2 days in a row. Regurges are just one less problem I have to worry about if the power/my UTH fails. I'm not exactly in a position to test it, but the idea works in theory. I haven't had problems with regurges (fortunately). Slitting a mouse is another 2 seconds out of my day. If it works, I'm not going to knock it.

[Snakespeare]

Jenni is right that braining/slitting is just one of several measures that can and probably should be taken to avoid problems. Sure--in the best of all possible worlds the snake owner is a perfect human being who exercises perfect animal husbandry at all times and everyone lives happily ever after. But everyone makes mistakes, and the universe does a great job of surprising us with adversity when we least expect it.

And braining a mouse is hardly, er, brain surgery. Even something as simple as cleaning the water bowl and providing fresh water is about five times more time consuming than sticking a knife in the mouse before feeding--so why not do it? There's no excuse for bad husbandry, but this IS a forum that is intended to help new snake owners learn good husbandry--if slitting contributes marginally to the health of a snake whose owner is currently getting a C in husbandry, and who is working hard for an A by reading the forum, why shouldn't we advocate the practice?

I don't buy the argument that "snakes don't need this in the wild, why should we provide it?" I'd like to know, for example, how many snakes really do survive and thrive in the wild in proportion to the number that are born. I suspect the mortality rate is pretty high in comparison to captive-born snakes that are well cared for. We do all sorts of things for snakes in captivity to benefit their health that they don't experience in the wild (feeding f/t, guaranteeing peace and quiet after feeding, maintaining optimal temperatures)--I don't understand why braining/slitting should be singled out as being something especially unnatural.

I also find SkyChimp's comments about size and growth to be at odds with most of what I've learned about corn snakes--and living creatures in general. All animals are more vulnerable to disease and illness when they are small, and I think an essential part of husbandry involves getting them without delay to a size where they are better able to resist health problems. Yes, my son was really cute when he was two--but I don't miss the weekly visits to the doctor for ear infections. (And I really did try to practice good husbandry!) We buy hatchling snakes because they're cheaper than adults, and probably because we have idealistic feelings about bonding with the snake at an early age (who knows?). Seeing the snake grow from a small creature to a large one also helps us to understand its nature and needs better, and it's probably more of a challenge.

So, again, I just don't see that there's a cogent argument against the practice of braining/slitting. And, as Jenni's earlier post indicates, research seems to support the practice. If you don't feel that you need to do it, fine--but I don't think it's logical to infer that those of us who do it are guilty of power feeding or bad husbandry. If anything, we're probably a bit too eager to practice good husbandry.

[SkyChimp]

"I don't buy the argument that "snakes don't need this in the wild, why should we provide it?" I'd like to know, for example, how many snakes really do survive and thrive in the wild in proportion to the number that are born. I suspect the mortality rate is pretty high in comparison to captive-born snakes that are well cared for."

Well, captive snakes don't have to deal with opossums, racoons, wading birgs, hawks, other snakes, highways, people with garden tools, floods, freezing temperatures, etc. No doubt there is higher mortality in wild snakes than captive - but for different reasons. I suspect wild snakes rarely have the problem of helpings of food that are too big too often, like many have to deal with in captivity. I'd bet that in captivity the #1 problem is feeding practices. I'd bet in the wild, that's far down the list.

In the wild, regurgitation isn't a result of poor husbandry. It's primarly a defensive and protective act. Sure, wild snakes regurge meals that are too big. But I'm as equally sure that it's a smaller proportion than captive animals as I was about the mortality thing.

If a snake keeper is stuffing his snake so much and so often that regurges are a problem, slitting the head of mouse to trick that protective mechanism into not-working is, without question, harmful. Feeding a snake a reasonably sized meal at reasonable increments is a far better solution.


I also find SkyChimp's comments about size and growth to be at odds with most of what I've learned about corn snakes--and living creatures in general. All animals are more vulnerable to disease and illness when they are small, and I think an essential part of husbandry involves getting them without delay to a size where they are better able to resist health problems. Yes, my son was really cute when he was two--but I don't miss the weekly visits to the doctor for ear infections. (And I really did try to practice good husbandry!) We buy hatchling snakes because they're cheaper than adults, and probably because we have idealistic feelings about bonding with the snake at an early age (who knows?). Seeing the snake grow from a small creature to a large one also helps us to understand its nature and needs better, and it's probably more of a challenge.

Getting any animal to grow more quickly than it reasonably should is unhealthy. And we aren't talking ear infections here, or any genuine illness. We are taking about poor husbandry and feeding practices that promote fast growth and regurgitation. I'm sure you were happy your children didn't require weekly pediatrician vists. I didn't have that problem with my children. But if I did, and I'm sure you would agree, overfeeding them to make them bigger wouldn't help. Overfeeding has health implications. The way snakes deal with it is that they regurgitate. Children don't do that, they become obese - then they deal with health problems the rest of their lives. If you supress the natural reaction of a snake that triggers in response to overfeeding, you are going to end up with an unhealthy snake. It's really that simple.

[Snakespeare]

I think you're missing the points several of us have made by trying to turn this into a discussion about overfeeding. No one on this thread has argued that slitting is an excuse for overfeeding, so I don't really see how this is a relevant response to the ideas that have been presented here.

[SkyChimp]

The point I am making is that if you are using slitting to solve a regurgitation issue, then you simply dealing with a symptom of a larger problem, not solving that underlying problem. Understand now?

[Snakespeare]

The point I am making is that if you are using slitting to solve a regurgitation issue, then you simply dealing with a symptom of a larger problem, not solving that underlying problem. Understand now?

No one on this thread has said anything about using slitting to solve regurgitation issues caused by overfeeding or power feeding (though I think it's usually a part of conventional regurge therapy--and rightly so, regardless of the cause of the regurge). We've argued that slitting is an extraordinarily simple extra step snake owners can take to PREVENT regurges, especially in situations beyond our control (power loss, tainted mouse, worries about getting taxes done on time, eating problems particular to specific morphs?), and to aid the snake's digestion in general in ways that might benefit the snake for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with regurges (see Jenni's excellent post above).

Part of the problem with this thread is that neither SkyChimp nor I have had to deal with regurge issues. As far as I can tell, we have three snakes between us, and we've both been on this forum for less than six months. This disquisition is becoming dangerously theoretical. In a way I'm playing Aristotle to his Plato: I'm always going to be worried about details and unforeseen complications; he's going to have faith that his husbandry is the Platonic ideal and that none of his snakes will have any problems ever. I suspect that regurges are something that happen even to those with excellent husbandry techniques at some point or another, especially for those who have a large collection of snakes. I'd like to hear from them if this thread is to continue in any meaningful way--we really need to move from the abstract to the concrete here.

[diamondlil]

Well I can play!
I have a snake who repeatedly regurged then became a non-feeder. After heart-felt cries for help on here and a whole saga of syringe-feeding before she finally started voluntary feeding, I've had my fair share of feeding problems so far.
I don't slit pinkies or peach fuzzies, but for hoppers upwards I do. Since doing so I've not had further regurge issues with my corns. I do not want them to grow unnaturally fast, in fact my yearling granite gained weight so quickly I extended the time between feedings for her. I just want to do all I can to minimise any chance of regurgitation. (This includes temperature regulation etc, as well as a 'hands off' policy on handling hatchlings unnecessarily)

[SkyChimp]

No one on this thread has said anything about using slitting to solve regurgitation issues caused by overfeeding or power feeding

You stated, in your first post in this thread, that slitting reduces "the possibility of a regurge, among other things."

Jrgh17 stated, "It's my personal theory that slitting or braining reduces regurges."

Nowhere did I state regurgitation was solely due to overfeeding or powerfeeding. I specifically stated there are several reasons, with the point being that regurgitation, regardless of cause, is an indication of a problem.

Part of the problem with this thread is that neither SkyChimp nor I have had to deal with regurge issues. As far as I can tell, we have three snakes between us, and we've both been on this forum for less than six months.

I've kept snakes for the better part of 30 years. My corn snake and king snake are my first captive-bred snakes and are as much my son's snakes as mine. In addition, I've got close relatives and friends that keep Boa Constrictors, Ball Pythons, Rosy Boas, King Snakes, Corns Snakes and Rat Snakes, among others.

In all that time, the only regurgitations I've ever witnessed were that of wild snakes regurgitating in response to being caught. I've never had to deal with snakes that regurgitated in response to poor husbandry, being fed a reasonably sized meal at reasonable increments, or other controllable reasons. Neither have my friends or relatives that I know of.

Now, I will admit that there is no doubt wild snakes are more hardy and generally more robust than captive breds. Wild snakes don't have the inherent weaknesses associated with captive bred snakes that come from a long process of inbreeding. There is no doubt there are some "defective" captive-bred snakes out there that will suffer from some regurgitation syndromes even though outwardly appearing normal and healthy.

However, regurgitation is not usual. If it's happening in the face of proper husbandry and proper feeding, there there is a problem. The problem, again, IS NOT that the snake is not being fed a slit mouse. A healthy snake should be able to tolerate an unslit mouse without regurgitating. If you have to slit the mouse to prevent regurgitation, it may solve the regurgitation symptom, but it does not solve the underlying problem.

If you are the owner of a snake that regurgiates no matter your husbandry techniques or feeding practices, slitting makes sense. If you've had an otherwise healthy snake that suddenly can't keep its food down, then slitting is a band-aid.

[Jrgh17]

Okay, neither myself nor snakespeare have indicated at any point that we're having rampaging problems with regurges. We're not using slitting or braining as a band-aid for our husbandry.

There is a very distinct difference between a) believing there is a correlation between snake health and slitting (i.e. ease of digestion) and b) using slitting to "solve" regurgitation issues. It is in this distinction where we seem to be misunderstanding eachother. I agree in the sense that if a snake is regurging, slitting or braining the mouse will not fix the problem. I have already stated that I use slitting as a "fail-safe" in case circumstances beyond my control threaten the health of my animals.

I have seen no ill effects from slitting mice, nor have I seen any reports of this tactic exhibiting a negative effect on the animal. And let's face it, it's very nice to see an enthusiastic feeding response so I can grab my camera and snap away. Slitting works for me. If you see it as harmful or unnatural, then don't do it. I'll continue to slit mice as long as I have no reason to believe it is causing my snakes any harm.

[SkyChimp]

Okay, neither myself nor snakespeare have indicated at any point that we're having rampaging problems with regurges. We're not using slitting or braining as a band-aid for our husbandry.

Listen, nobody said you did. Don't get irrational. My post speaks for itself. Either you understand its meaning, even after I have clarified it, or you still don't.

My meaning, for the third time, is that regurgitation in captivity is usually related to husbandry issues, or feeding issues. Sometimes, however, it's simply a condition a captive bred snake develops. If, however, the regurgitation is related to husbandry or feeding issues, slitting a mouse is not a resolution for the fundamental, underlying problem. <<<<<< That’s my point, and that’s the ONLY point I am making.

Nobody said YOU were over feeding. Nobody said YOU practiced poor husbandry. If you practice slitting just because you want to, more power to you. However, I don't see that it’s necessary IF you practice proper husbandry, IF you practice proper feeding practices, and IF you don't have a snake that has developed some sort of regurgitation syndrome in spite of proper husbandry and feeding practices. It seems to me you are anticipating a potential problem that shouldn't be an issue. In essence, you are fixing something that isn’t broken. But if you want to, that's up to you, and there is nothing wrong with it.

[Jrgh17]

If, however, the regurgitation is related to husbandry or feeding issues, slitting a mouse is not a resolution for the fundamental, underlying problem. <<<<<< That’s my point, and that’s the ONLY point I am making.

I understand your point, and have agreed with you:

I agree in the sense that if a snake is regurging, slitting or braining the mouse will not fix the problem.

However, as I've attempted to explain, I'm talking about a completely different use of the tactic. I use slitting as a preventative measure, or as you put it "fixing something that isn't broken". I like to be prepared. It works for me.

[DogStar5988]

I have to say, I do it to increase growth rate. I admit, I want my snake to grow into an adult as soon as possible, now granted I do not powerfeed and I wouldn't try and increase growth by any means that may be harmful/stressful. Honestly I just find my hatchling to be difficult to handle because he is so small and jumpy and I am hoping that when he grows he will be easier to handle. But this is just me, I don't see any problem doing something harmless to make him grow faster.


---Kenny

[Snakespeare]

There is a very distinct difference between a) believing there is a correlation between snake health and slitting (i.e. ease of digestion) and b) using slitting to "solve" regurgitation issues. It is in this distinction where we seem to be misunderstanding eachother.

Nicely put. I'm done here.

[SkyChimp]

I understand your point, and have agreed with you:

Thank you. I glad one of you understand.


However, as I've attempted to explain, I'm talking about a completely different use of the tactic. I use slitting as a preventative measure, or as you put it "fixing something that isn't broken". I like to be prepared. It works for me.

I understand that.