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Don't Tread On Me!!

Pruddock
04-11-2007, 10:24 PM
Now, before all of you Crotalus Horridus fans go nuts...no Canebrakes this time. But this little guy was sayin the same dang thing to me! He was snappy and unhappy to be moved off his warm trail by this strange guy with the camera. Found him basking on one of the trails and decided to snap a few shots of him and move him out of harms way. Funny little snake. He was snappy, musky, and even kind enough to rattle his tail at me in the leaves after I'd moved him well off the trail. Anyways, enjoy another Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix. They seem to be everywhere here right now. Oh yeah, also another shy little box turtle off the side of the trail.

Pruddock
04-11-2007, 10:26 PM
More pics...Tried to get some ventrals in there too with the hook. I also loved how well he blended into his surrounding...I almost didnt see him when he was sittin out blatently on the trail.

Pruddock
04-11-2007, 10:27 PM
And the last two...enjoy :cheers: (the first pic in this set is my favorite :) )

Nanci
04-11-2007, 10:30 PM
Nice pics! What's the turtle, a little musk turtle, or something else? Never mind, I see it's a boxie. Three-toed?

Nanci

SkyChimp
04-11-2007, 10:30 PM
GREAT! The head on that snake is gorgeous.

I've been hoping to get out, but it actually snowed here last weekend and it's been cold ever since. :shrugs:

Nanci
04-11-2007, 10:34 PM
Look at him! I was just reading that the way to quickly ID them is by the row of Hershey's Kisses! He's a perfect example!

Nanci

Pruddock
04-11-2007, 10:35 PM
I'm pretty sure its a little three-toed. I've found two others like it and they all have the same shell. The little upturn at the sides of shell are what make me believe its a type of box turtle, and three toed is the only one that makes sense in this area and with that dull shell.

Pruddock
04-11-2007, 10:44 PM
They really are beautiful snakes in this area and if keepin a HOT wasn't so dangerous I'd probably already have one by now :grin01:

SkyChimp
04-11-2007, 11:34 PM
They really are beautiful snakes in this area and if keepin a HOT wasn't so dangerous I'd probably already have one by now :grin01:

Oh come on now, don't be a sissy. A nip now and then from a copperhead, no problem. A little necrosis, maybe the loss of a finger or two, anaphylactic reaction, CroFab at $2,700 a vial - kid's stuff.

Chase13
04-11-2007, 11:47 PM
Payton doesn't do well with getting bitten. You should have seen him in 5th grade after being stung by a bumblebee on the lip. One of my favorite memories.

Pruddock
04-12-2007, 01:05 AM
Ahh yes the infamous puffy lip...a favorite for most of marshalltown I reckon. Thanks for bringin that up Chase...preciate it bud. :headbang:

SkyChimp
04-12-2007, 07:22 AM
Pruddock, I like you brther(?).

Anymore stories? Come on, spill the beans!

SkyChimp
04-12-2007, 07:23 AM
Man, my typing skills suck.

Nanci
04-12-2007, 07:28 AM
You can change that for a mere $25!!

I'd sure like to see the rest of that turtle.

I've only seen one Copperhead in the wild, and it was in the woods, in a dry area, in the summer, out on a single track MTB trail. Very small. But they aren't really a big snake when full grown, are they?

I see the best snakes when biking- I think they don't get any warning so are easy to sneak up on.

Nanci

Pruddock
04-12-2007, 10:11 AM
Yeah Chase is my younger brother who's still up in all of the snow in iowa :grin01: and I'm down here in CS goin to school and herpin as much as possible. And, just as an observation as a Biomedical Engineer, copperheads have a very weak coagulant as a venom that really only produces localized swelling and pain. Now, obviously this differs from snake to snake and venom load to venom load, but the only way I can really see necrosis occurring is from the edema caused by swelling. The edema in turn makes it harder to cells to get the nutrients they need, but as long as you go to the hospital and are treated more for the symptoms than with the antivenom itself (which has been known to cause more problems than it solves) you should be ok. I do agree that you can have terribly debilitated fingers if you are bitten on the hand though. Usually the venoms that cause necrosis are serious coagulants and myotoxins and cytotoxins. Mostly cytotoxins though.

Pruddock
04-12-2007, 12:22 PM
That all said....I sure as hell ain't stickin my hand in striking distance lol. :cheers:

Pruddock
04-12-2007, 12:24 PM
And in regards to the turle Nanci. I couldn't quite coax him out of his shell and all of the turtles I've found have been about the same way except for this guy I posted earlier. Here he is again.

SkyChimp
04-12-2007, 10:20 PM
And, just as an observation as a Biomedical Engineer, copperheads have a very weak coagulant as a venom that really only produces localized swelling and pain. Now, obviously this differs from snake to snake and venom load to venom load, but the only way I can really see necrosis occurring is from the edema caused by swelling. The edema in turn makes it harder to cells to get the nutrients they need, but as long as you go to the hospital and are treated more for the symptoms than with the antivenom itself (which has been known to cause more problems than it solves) you should be ok. I do agree that you can have terribly debilitated fingers if you are bitten on the hand though. Usually the venoms that cause necrosis are serious coagulants and myotoxins and cytotoxins. Mostly cytotoxins though.

My understanding is that the venom is exactly the opposite - rather than coagulating, it is hemolytic with anticoagulant properties that cause hemorrhaging.

The venom contains proteins, most of which are enzymes. They are, among others:
- Proteolytic enzymes - break down tissue proteins (principal)
- Phospholipases - muscle and nerve toxins
- Hyaluronidases - dissolves intracellular material to speed the spread of toxin
- Collagenases - break down connective tissue

Copperhead venom is highly hemolytic with hemorrhagic properties caused by a fibrinolytic enzyme which break down the coagulant properties of blood. In other words - anticoagulant. Necrosis is apparently directly caused by myotoxins - though secondary effects such as infection, gangrene, and swelling can contibute.

As far as being weak, studies indicate the weakness may only be associated with mice, on which the LD50 is tested. LD50 (LD=Lethal Dose) is the average least amount of toxin needed to kill 50% of test mice. The LD50 for mice of Copperhead venom is 10.9mg/kg In comparison, the LD50 for mice for the Cottonmouth is 2.04 mg/kg. Cottonmouth venom is roughly 5X more toxic to mice than Copperhead venom. However, estimates are that the fatal dose for an average sized human for either is 100mg. In fact, it may actually be higher for Cottonmouth. For humans, there appears to be little choose from between the Copperhead and the Cottonmouth venoms.

The principal difference appears to be the ability to deliver the venom. On average, the venom yield is much smaller in the Copperhead than the Cottonmouth. Its ability to deliver the venom is also diminished.

Copperheads have fangs that range from 1.1mm to 7.2mm, dependent on length. Average venom containment is 40-75mg.

Cottonmouth fangs range from 2.7mm to 11mm. Venom containment is 80-170mg.

Copperheads, in comparison to other Viperidaes, have small fangs, small venom yields, are usually considered more docile and less likely to bite (though that is hardly characteristic of all animals). Accordingly, there are the least dangerous of the venomous snakes in the US. But the does not diminish the absolute potency of the venom with respect to human envenomation.

SkyChimp
04-12-2007, 10:36 PM
Here's a link to the snakebite photos on Venomousreptiles.org. There's a few Copperhead bite photos, some showing the graphic effects of a solid tag by the snake. Nasty stuff.

Pruddock
04-12-2007, 10:36 PM
I think you misunderstood coagulant because you just said the same thing. Coagulant, when referring to venom, means that the overall effect of the venom is the deterioration of the bloods ability to coagulate. Even pro-coagulants cause anticoagulation over time. They create blood clots that are broken down by the body's natural ability to destroy blod clots. These clots can only be broken down to a point though because the body runs out of these enzymes and the blood ultimately becomes unable to coagulate which results in minor hemorrhaging. My main point in bringing this up was that it doesnt cause necrosis like your original post claimed. I wasn't trying to step on your toes and I wasn't trying to sound superior by mentioning that I'm a BMEN major. The only reason I brought it up was because I have to study the body and I want to do research with venoms when I graduate so I'm forced to start studying this stuff. And you are right myotoxins destroy tissue, but it is more deep tissue like muscles and skeletal tissue. Myotoxins are therefore much more dangerous because they can lead to respiratory failure, heart failure, and basically any internal organs that are in the effecting range of the venom can fail because the muscle and tissue around them are being damaged. Cytotoxins are chalk-full of enzymes that are designed to start digesting tissue immediatly and cause serious damage to all cells in range of the venom. And you are completely correct about why copperheads are the least dangerous of the three sister species in the Americas (copperheads, cottonmouths, and cantils). They have a weak venom and with a very small venom load that is injected at a very shallow depth under the skin. Isn't this stuff just facinating!! :cheers:

SkyChimp
04-12-2007, 10:36 PM
oops!

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libraries/Snakebite%20Photos

Pruddock
04-12-2007, 10:40 PM
As long as you go to the hospital and aren't stupid about trying to just "wait it out", you shouldn't have any extensive damage if you are an adult. My grandparents little Shelty was bitten on the nose and suffered very minimal effects after being taken to the vet. Still...the original post was that all of this makes keeping one of these beautys not worth the risk. Agreed? lol :cheers:

SkyChimp
04-12-2007, 10:57 PM
I think you misunderstood coagulant because you just said the same thing. Coagulant, when referring to venom, means that the overall effect of the venom is the deterioration of the bloods ability to coagulate.


OK, I thought you were saying the venom has a coagulating effect. Then we agree.



My main point in bringing this up was that it doesnt cause necrosis like your original post claimed. I wasn't trying to step on your toes and I wasn't trying to sound superior by mentioning that I'm a BMEN major. The only reason I brought it up was because I have to study the body and I want to do research with venoms when I graduate so I'm forced to start studying this stuff.

But it does cause necrosis - not in all cases, certainly, but necrosis is a serious risk and definite possibility. Take a look at page 7 and 8 of the link I posted. In addition to the compelling photographic evidence, the necrotic properties of the venom is supported by Ernst & Ernst (Snakes of the United States and Canada) and Conant (Snakes of the Agkistrodon Complex: A Monographic Review).


Myotoxins are therefore much more dangerous because they can lead to respiratory failure, heart failure, and basically any internal organs that are in the effecting range of the venom can fail because the muscle and tissue around them are being damaged. Cytotoxins are chalk-full of enzymes that are designed to start digesting tissue immediatly and cause serious damage to all cells in range of the venom. And you are completely correct about why copperheads are the least dangerous of the three sister species in the Americas (copperheads, cottonmouths, and cantils).

Both are nothing more than generic terms for all sorts of cocktails. I guess my point was that necrosis is not merely an incidental side effect of envenomation (though it can be in the manners I listed), it is more likely a direct result of tissue-destroying proteins subcutaneously injected into the body.



They have a weak venom and with a very small venom load that is injected at a very shallow depth under the skin. Isn't this stuff just facinating!! :cheers:

It is, indeed, fascinating. We can diddle over details, but we both agree the stuff that comes out of these snakes ain't honey. Its vile stuff and it it can do a lot of damage to the body.

Pruddock
04-12-2007, 11:19 PM
Take a look at page 7 and 8 of the link I posted.

The pictures shown on page 7 are from a Cottonmouth and cottonmouth venom contains serious myotoxins, copperhead venom does not. The most potent copperhead venom has been attributed to the trans-pecos and northern copperheads, but they still do not contain myotoxins -- a.k.a no enzymes that directly break down tissue on a large scale. The only pictures I saw from a copperhead that involved some sort of serious necrosis were in children, and I stated that an adult will not see these types of side effects because our immune systems are more highly developed and respond better (mine probably not as my little bro stated earlier...I'd probably pop like a balloon lol :D).

Both are nothing more than generic terms for all sorts of cocktails. I guess my point was that necrosis is not merely an incidental side effect of envenomation (though it can be in the manners I listed), it is more likely a direct result of tissue-destroying proteins subcutaneously injected into the body.

I never said that necrosis was an incidental side effect. It can result as a side effect due to edema just like any type of serious swelling. All necrosis is, is dead cells. If cells can't get the nutrients they need, they die. I agree, most necrosis is due directly do to myotoxic and cytotoxic venoms -- (a.k.a tissue destroying enzymes) :cheers:

SkyChimp
04-13-2007, 07:08 AM
The most potent copperhead venom has been attributed to the trans-pecos and northern copperheads, but they still do not contain myotoxins

Myotoxin is specifically listed as a component in the literature I have. In fact, A. c. laticinutus has an additional myotoxin that causes myelin sheath necrosis.


I never said that necrosis was an incidental side effect. It can result as a side effect due to edema just like any type of serious swelling. All necrosis is, is dead cells. If cells can't get the nutrients they need, they die. I agree, most necrosis is due directly do to myotoxic and cytotoxic venoms

OK, I thought you were saying necrosis was primarily a result of complications of edema. Certainly tissue can die from "strangulation" caused by edema. However, according to the literature I have access to, necrosis is primarily caused by the direct action of toxins. Even where edema is succesfully treated, necrosis can occur.

The issue of serious necrosis with the Copperhead is probably more due tot he fact that deep envenomation is unlikely dut to the small fangs of the snake. As I understand it, only the large pit-vipers (I'm only taking about North America) are capable of a truly intramuscular envenomation.

Nanci
04-13-2007, 07:29 AM
I would be nearly positive that's a Three-Toed. In Florida you are only allowed to possess two total boxies of the four subspecies, and you can't buy or sell them. I'm at my limit with an Eastern and a Florida.

I am reading this old book that a friend gave me, Venomous Reptiles by the Minters, and it talks about how Copperheads were (are?) used in religious ceremonies and he believed they were put in a sort of trance and didn't bite because, being passed from person to person, they never got to ciol themselves into a defensive posture. They used Timber Rattlers, too, who were reluctant to bite, but the more southern groups would use EDBs which were much less agreeable.

Nanci

Pruddock
04-13-2007, 10:08 AM
Yeah I know what you're talking about. The name of the church is the Church of Lord Jesus and they base all of their beliefs about snakes off of one verse, Mark 16:18. Jesus said, "They will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." :cheers:

Chase13
04-13-2007, 10:41 AM
I think you misunderstood coagulant because you just said the same thing. Coagulant, when referring to venom, means that the overall effect of the venom is the deterioration of the bloods ability to coagulate. Even pro-coagulants cause anticoagulation over time. They create blood clots that are broken down by the body's natural ability to destroy blod clots. These clots can only be broken down to a point though because the body runs out of these enzymes and the blood ultimately becomes unable to coagulate which results in minor hemorrhaging. My main point in bringing this up was that it doesnt cause necrosis like your original post claimed. I wasn't trying to step on your toes and I wasn't trying to sound superior by mentioning that I'm a BMEN major. The only reason I brought it up was because I have to study the body and I want to do research with venoms when I graduate so I'm forced to start studying this stuff. And you are right myotoxins destroy tissue, but it is more deep tissue like muscles and skeletal tissue. Myotoxins are therefore much more dangerous because they can lead to respiratory failure, heart failure, and basically any internal organs that are in the effecting range of the venom can fail because the muscle and tissue around them are being damaged. Cytotoxins are chalk-full of enzymes that are designed to start digesting tissue immediatly and cause serious damage to all cells in range of the venom. And you are completely correct about why copperheads are the least dangerous of the three sister species in the Americas (copperheads, cottonmouths, and cantils). They have a weak venom and with a very small venom load that is injected at a very shallow depth under the skin. Isn't this stuff just facinating!! :cheers:
http://www.michaelandkrissy.com/images/bunny_pancake.jpg

Chase13
04-13-2007, 11:08 AM
Here's a link to the snakebite photos on Venomousreptiles.org. There's a few Copperhead bite photos, some showing the graphic effects of a solid tag by the snake. Nasty stuff.
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2316/badthreadqc3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
jk jk jk

SkyChimp
04-13-2007, 08:18 PM
Pruddock, I have a simple solution. We need a volunteer. You have a brother around here somewhere. I have a sister that isn't much use. You let your copper bite him, and I'll catch a copper and throw it on my sister. If, in a day or two, things rot and fall off them, you buy me a beer. If not, I'll buy you one. Deal? :grin01:

Pruddock
04-13-2007, 08:52 PM
Hahaha that really just reminded me of the guy who tested the small pox vaccine. Ever heard that one? He used it on his son and then through him into a room full of people who had been diagnosed. Talk about a leap of faith lol. Anyways I found what you're talking about and I agree. The Broad Banded has the myotoxin that attacks the myelin sheath of nerves and the only reason it doesn't inflict as much damage on adults is because it doesn't inject the venom deep enough to do serious damage. I knew about the ACL enzyme, but I never put that together with the latin name lol. My bad. All other species I can't find anything other than hemolytic enzymes. But I did come across this and it looks like copperhead venom could potentially become a cure for breast cancer. Thought it was interesting. Here it is if you wanna take a look.

http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/snakvenpainp.html

Chase13
04-13-2007, 09:06 PM
Pruddock, I have a simple solution. We need a volunteer. You have a brother around here somewhere. I have a sister that isn't much use. You let your copper bite him, and I'll catch a copper and throw it on my sister. If, in a day or two, things rot and fall off them, you buy me a beer. If not, I'll buy you one. Deal? :grin01:
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5618/nooblw4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

SkyChimp
04-13-2007, 09:20 PM
Thanks for that. This is a technology that is extremely fascinating.

I've seen some reports on the use of snake toxins to treat tumors. In some cases, the toxin actually makes things worse because it can dissolve the compounds that bind cancerous cells together allowing them to be distributed about the body. In order to destroy the turmor, it has to be directly injected. If that can be done, you could simply cut the tumor out. Inoperable tumors probably can't be injected. But advances are being made daily and since so much effort is being put into it, the idea must have a lot of merit.

I'm interested in the use of toxins to combat blood lipids and arterial plaque. Some research has been done into the plaque issue with some success. I'm not sure about the lipids issue, though.

I do know a lot of research is being done into using hemolytic venom to treat stroke victims. Some tests suggest medication made from venom allow up to twice the amount of time before a victim must be treated with clot-busting drugs before permanent damage is done.

And anyone you know that is on high-blood pressure medication should thank a snake. The first high-blood pressure medications were made using venom.

You would probably appreciate this site:
http://www.venomdoc.com/
I'm a member there, but I don't post a lot. Most of the stuff is over my head. But it's interesting to read.

SkyChimp
04-13-2007, 09:21 PM
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5618/nooblw4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
:roflmao: :roflmao:

Nanci
04-14-2007, 09:11 AM
The first animals immunized against snake venom were pigeons, in 1887. Go pigeons!

Nanci