Needing Picture and Advice

[notusuallyworried]

I don't have a camera, so I can't take a picture of what I THINK may be scale rot. After my corn's last shed, I noticed little brown lines by, and sometimes in between his belly scales. Also, the tip of his tail still has the skin on (although I have read how to take care of that and will be doing that now).

Can someone link me to a picture of what scale rot looks like (please nothing extreme, I don't want to vomit, lol)? I'd like to confirm before I go treating him for something he doesn't have.

Also, if it IS scale rot, I have heard I should completely remove the substrate, and replace with something like paper towel. Along with this, treat the area with neosporin (would bactitracin work? it's a purer version of neosporin), is that correct?

And as a final, what causes scale rot?

Thanks a lot. I've been looking online all day (just noticed it today), and am really worried about my little guy. I've had him for 2 years (rescued him from someone who was just going to ditch him, he's about 7 years old, 5.5 feet long), and hate to see anything wrong with the poor guy...

[sbourget]

Try this page for some information from the vet manual on scale rot:
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171407.htm

Also, a copy of Kathy Love and Bill Love's book 'Corn Snakes, The Comprehansive Owner's Guide' would be really helpful to you.

[notusuallyworried]

Thank you. After some less frantic searching and asking a few experts around, it's the very beginning of scale rot. Nothing NEARLY as bad as the picture on that site (blech). It's like a 1mm line in only a couple of places. But I pay serious attention to my pets and noticed this immediately. I'm going to swap out the substrate immediately and begin treatment with some neosporin. Also lowering his humidy levels (they've been pretty constant at 60-65%), which is supposedly another factor.

Any other advice would be greatly appreciated...

[Joolz68]

I hope this helps

Scale Rot (Neocrotic Dermatitis) appears as enlarged, discolored (rust or reddish-brown), fluid filled scales. Possible ulceration and breakdown of the skin and underlying tissue. Generally appears on the ventral scales (belly), and can be in one long continuous area or in separate spots.

It's a bacterial infection that can be caused by damp substrate, inadequate temperatures, and dirty enclosures. Bad cases will also have blisters, and will require draining by your vet. Serious cases are life-threatening.


***** GRAPHIC PICTURE ALERT *****

http://tinypic.com/i2ixol.jpg

I don't think your case is this bad. But in case someone on this site does:

Some steps to follow ALONG WITH GOING TO THE VET:

Immediately clean the enclosure thoroughly. Raise ambient temperature to 88-90 degrees. You must keep your snake warm and dry during the recovery process. If your snake tends to soak in the water bowl, it may be necessary to remove the larger bowl and replace it with a very small dish that would
not allow soaking but still provide drinking water.

Clean the entire affected area by swabbing with a 50/50 hydrogen peroxide/water solution. Must be thorough to treat the entire area because the damaged tissue could be in multiple places.

Apply Polysporin or Neosporin to the affected areas twice a day and work it in and under the scales.

Consult your veterinarian as soon as possible.

[notusuallyworried]

Ok, yes, his case is NOWHERE near that extreme. I'm just really quite thorough when it comes to inspecting him. He has three or 4 little spots that look like they could be starting.

I have removed the offending substrate, sticks, dirt, rocks, and reptile bark (as well as the live plant that had been in there). They are all thrown out (well, the dirt was added to my compost, as it just makes sense, and the rocks were put in the driveway). The tank was cleaned with a 5% bleach 95% boiling water mix, then rinsed three times with 100% boiling water, then left to dry (until the humidity read 20% and that's pretty much the ambient in the house). The hides and water dish were placed in a crock pot and boiled for 10 minutes, and also allowed to dry. The substrate is now clean, unbleached, untreated paper towels. I put Theo (my corn) into a warm bath to help his last little bit of tail shed (he had a little 1/4 inch section that didn't come off, but did in the bath). Dried him thoroughly. Then applied Baciguent (a bactitracin ointment with no numbing effects like Neosporin) as gingerly as I do on my own fresh tattoos. And I let him dry himself off of the excess. Put him back in the tank, and he immediately checked out the whole place, and went back to his favourite hide, which is a place he hasn't been in in 2 days. Looks to me like this is a good sign.

Also, the temperature is around 88, and the humidity is at 25%. I will try to make sure the humidity stays low. I will also be re-applying the baciguent every day. It also appears that he may be forcing a shed (he just shed like 3 weeks ago). I hope this clears some of it up.

I'll keep you all in the loop...

[notusuallyworried]

oh, as well, he had no reaction (no pain flinches or anything) when I applied either the towel or the baciguent. I'm going to assume that this is a good sign. The snake in that picture looks like that could be PAINFUL.

And if there's any questions about baciguent, it's a non-pore clogging bactitracin compound, with no anasthetic components. I use it on all my skin wounds, and from what other forums have recommended (neosporin simply for it's healing properties, and the bactitracin that's in neosporin), I am going to assume that it will be ok. Guess we'll see. But everything else appears to be keen at this point.

[Joejr14]

Did I read that right? You had 'dirt' in the enclosure? Like dirt from outside?

[tyflier]

Try this page for some information from the vet manual on scale rot:
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171407.htm...
Thank you for that link. That is one website that I could sit and read for hours on end...

[bitsy]

I had one Corn with scale rot last year - like yours, it was limited to belly scales when I caught it and must have been a very mild case when I look at that photo :-puke01: .

I was advised to observe very stringent hygiene, as the bacteria are carried on human hands. So it's careful hand washing before AND after handling either the affected snake, or their viv fittings, water bowl etc.

Something else I was advised to do, was change the newspaper frequently - every day if that didn't upset the snake too much. Basically, the bacteria can be harboured on newspaper. When you apply the Neosporine (I used Tamodine, but effectively does the same thing), if you put the snake back onto the same newspaper, it could pick the bacteria up again straight away.

Mine took a couple of months to clear up completely, and she shed every 10-14 days. However, it has gone and not come back.

In my case, she got it in the first place because she spent so long in a humid hide due to a bad ovulation that made her act gravid. I was told that the bacteria that cause scale rot are naturally occurring and the snake will probably be in contact with them anyway - it's just that the increased humidity over a number of weeks in the hide, plus the stress of the ovulation, had made her susceptible to the bacteria developing into rot and then affecting her health. She went off eating for a couple of months as well, but started up again as soon as her shed cycle settled back into its normal pattern.

Good luck and keep us posted. I nearly had a fit when I found it on my girl, but we were over the worst in a couple of months.

[notusuallyworried]

OK!!! Good news!

Theo shed today. A little chunky (as in it wasn't a complete piece), but close to 90% of the brown gross crap came with this first molt. I reapplied the baciguent, changed out all the paper and such, re-boiled the water dish (he was soaking in it just prior to molt). Replaced everything. His belly has a couple (I think 2?) places where it doesn't look 100%, but he's coming along. YAY! I will keep you all in the know. AND, he spent a good half hour slithering around my wrists and arms. Seemed quite a bit happier today even than yesterday. I'm happy.

I do religiously clean myself prior and post handlings. It's the same with every reptile I've had (for over 20 years, and actually this is the first one to ever get sick). I won't shake someone's hand if it's got crud all over it. I wouldn't expect my reptiles to appreciate it either. :P I do ask about newspaper though. Aren't you concerned about the ink? I'm using unbleached unprocessed paper towels personally, and have changed it every day so far too (lol, ooo. 2 days. lol! :P). Seems to me that scale rot could be akin to athelete's foot. Similar in function, anyways. I mean, your skin and sweat carry that bacteria too, but the fact that we take our shoes off (most of us, that is) keeps it from becoming an issue. Just a weird thought of mine.

Now, as to the dirt, the dirt is from a sterile bag of potting soil. He's ALWAYS had dirt in his tank, I've always used the same dirt (as in from the same company, same procedure, etc) too, and it's for the live plant that was in there (and was also in there from the beginning of his life). They LIVE in the wild, where (gasp), there's dirt. I can't possibly see how there would be a problem with having dirt (assuming it's clean, bug free, etc.) in his tank. :P Yes, I assume if I went to a ditch by the road and scooped up some dirt and tossed it into his tank, that would be a little more unsanitary, but in this case it's fine. Never had a mite or anything else that could be related to having a plant in there.

[Joolz68]

I'm happy to hear the progress.

Once he's all better, will you go back to using the same substrate as before?

[notusuallyworried]

I haven't quite decided what substrate I'll use. The previous was not ONLY dirt. it was large white stones (much too large to digest), some reptile bark, AND dirt (depending on the area of the tank, it's a 75g long tank). I may just switch completely to reptile bark, or maybe a sand base to help with the radiant heating pad so he doesn't bury himself completely under the bark and lay right on the pad (as in with only a pane of glass in between).

[notusuallyworried]

lol... digest should be injest.

[dawnrenee2000]

I haven't quite decided what substrate I'll use. The previous was not ONLY dirt. it was large white stones (much too large to digest), some reptile bark, AND dirt (depending on the area of the tank, it's a 75g long tank). I may just switch completely to reptile bark, or maybe a sand base to help with the radiant heating pad so he doesn't bury himself completely under the bark and lay right on the pad (as in with only a pane of glass in between).

Please dont use a sand base for your snake. The scales get irritated when the sand gets caught underneath them.

Regards

[notusuallyworried]

Fair enough. I can see why that would be an issue. I hate getting sand in certain areas... So how do people keep their snakes from plopping themselves on their heating pads? A little strip of carpet (which would of course have to be replaced every time the snake evos)? or... ?

[MegF.]

I use a folded newspaper on the bottom and then substrate on top. Works fine, or you can get a thermostat to regulate the temp so that it doesn't matter if they lay on it or not.

[notusuallyworried]

Just from personal experience, the logic of "just having a thermostat so it doesn't matter if they lay on it" is flawed. Simply, your oven has a thermostat, and if you turn it to 350, the areas around the element WILL get extremely hot, while the areas between the elements will only go to 350. As another example, your furnace can have a thermostat in the living room say 80F and the furnace itself has a gas burning flame in it that's quite a bit hotter than 80F. So, putting your hand on the flame will DEFINITELY burn you, no matter what the thermostat says. Even leaving your hands on the furnace can get quite uncomfortable. :)

Anyhoo, I'll probably go with a carpet/reptile bark option when he's back to 100%.

[Savvy19]

If you're going to do the carpet, there are some astroturf type products that are machine washable. It might save on costs, rather than replacing carpet constantly.

[notusuallyworried]

Yeah. I'm going to get a bunch of astroturf cut and "ended" (have the ends melted and stitched so they don't frey) to the size of the tank. Not planning on going with something from a flooring store. :) No one's going to see it anyways. :)

[MegF.]

Usually the probe for the thermostat will sit on the uth. If it's set to 85 degrees, even if there is a few degree difference, it will not be enough to burn them. The average uth can get over 100 degrees without regulation. That's much too warm no matter what. You aren't regulating air temp in this case, but the temp of the object itself. So your furnace example really doesn't work in this case.

[bitsy]

Strongly agree with Meg on this one - placement of the stat probe enables you to directly control the surface temp of the UTH.

In a trial of an unregulated UTH on a UK forum (in a setup without a snake), the surface temp hit 120 degrees within a couple of hours of it being plugged in. The person was so concerned about the fire risk if it was left to heat up further, that they decided to stop the trial and buy a thermostat.

[MegF.]

It takes a lot higher temps to ignite something. I personally don't use thermostats on all my uth's but I put a thick layer of paper over the top of them and they are not attached directly to the glass either. I attach it to piece of picture glass and then place it under the tank.

[notusuallyworried]

Ah, see that makes more sense. See, your tank is set up differently than most I've seen, so I simply drew from what I've personally seen. With the way yours is set up, I can agree that the thermostat would do it's job properly.

[notusuallyworried]

Of course, it's sort of like you holding what is clearly an orange to you, and explaining it to me, but how you are explaining it, it looks just like the apple that I'm holding. Neither are wrong, it's simply a matter of interpretation. :)

[snakepunk]

I do ask about newspaper though. Aren't you concerned about the ink?

Newspapers are perfectly safe (and my personal favorite). If I remember correctly, I think Rich told me that's what he uses.




Now, as to the dirt, the dirt is from a sterile bag of potting soil. He's ALWAYS had dirt in his tank, I've always used the same dirt (as in from the same company, same procedure, etc) too, and it's for the live plant that was in there (and was also in there from the beginning of his life).

It may be sterile when you buy it (I have serious doubts, though), but once your snake has pooped in there it isn't.




They LIVE in the wild, where (gasp), there's dirt. I can't possibly see how there would be a problem with having dirt (assuming it's clean, bug free, etc.) in his tank.

Yes, but your snake IS NOT in the wild. It is now in a closed system. There's no unfiltered sunlight, rain, etc.

I'm glad your snake is doing better, but your previous set-up seems like you were asking for problems. Someone who has been keeping reptiles for 20 years and with internet access should have known better.

[notusuallyworried]

as to safety, I can understand, aside from sterility. You say that bagged dirt isn't sterile. I used to work in a newspaper plant, and when I was a kid, delivered the things (as I'm sure many kids have done). Newspaper is by no means sterile. Way too many hands on it. Not to mention that the ink rubs off on everything. I can't see the logic in that, aside from ease and the fact that it's not expensive. And unless you boil or put your newspaper in something with a high enough temperature to kill bacteria (say a fire), your newspaper is much less sterile than processed dirt. :)

I do agree that once the snake has pooped that the dirt is no longer sterile. What I had said though is that he had lived with that as a substrate his entire life, and never encountered a problem. And I would be willing to be dollars to donuts that had this past winter not increased the humidity in the tank by 12-20% over it's norm, that anything would have happened.

However, that being said, when I rescued this snake, the previous owner was the one who had had the dirt/plant/rocks/bark setup. Had it been my choice (as it was with my sinaloan, ball, and will be for the red tail boa), I would not have started with that. However, when something works, it works. And I doubt that to take you from IL and throw you into the arid desert in Africa wouldn't be a serious system shock. As it would be for any creature, which is why I didn't immediately dump everything in the tank when I first got it.

[notusuallyworried]

I forgot to add. I'm not slamming you in the least about your substrate choice, because what works for you is what works for you. Just pointing out that you cannot claim that your reused newspaper is more sterile.

[snakepunk]

I'm not having any problems keeping all my snakes on newspapers.

[notusuallyworried]

As I'd not had any problems keeping my snake in it's dirt. :)

[snakepunk]

I don't have a camera, so I can't take a picture of what I THINK may be scale rot. After my corn's last shed, I noticed little brown lines by, and sometimes in between his belly scales. Also, the tip of his tail still has the skin on (although I have read how to take care of that and will be doing that now).

Can someone link me to a picture of what scale rot looks like (please nothing extreme, I don't want to vomit, lol)? I'd like to confirm before I go treating him for something he doesn't have.

Also, if it IS scale rot, I have heard I should completely remove the substrate, and replace with something like paper towel. Along with this, treat the area with neosporin (would bactitracin work? it's a purer version of neosporin), is that correct?

And as a final, what causes scale rot?

Thanks a lot. I've been looking online all day (just noticed it today), and am really worried about my little guy. I've had him for 2 years (rescued him from someone who was just going to ditch him, he's about 7 years old, 5.5 feet long), and hate to see anything wrong with the poor guy...


:shrugs: Sounds like a problem to me.