Nagini had her first regurg, and I think it's my fault.

[Corny Noob]

:cry:
I came home from work tonight to find a gushy fuzzy regurge in nagini's home.
I really don't think it was the mouse because I felt it and it was all soft. I think it's my fault. Lately she's taken to burrowing, so me being terrified that she's escaped so I poke around the aspen to find her.
I did that today right before I went to work and weighed her really quickly before putting her up. I fed her on the 15th during the day, and she had the regurg sometime after 4 but before now.
I feel like such a bad mommy for bothering her, and now I can't feed the poor baby for awhile.
Good thing I just picked up some pinkies to feed with the fuzzies, cause now I'm gonna have to feed her one of those whenever it is safe to feed her again.
:sobstory:

[Corny Noob]

Oh and is it ok to take her out and make sure she's ok? I'm afraid to bother her but I want to make sure she's ok :(

[Corny Noob]

Or maybe it was the mouse, because I thought after 48 hours it should be more digested than it was, it was still in like fuzzy tube shaped form and it was still pink...so maybe it was the fuzzy? :(

[nagini]

I did what now? D:

Aaahh. Sorry. :P Anyhow.

Leave her alone, don't feed her for ten days, and when you feed her, give her something half the size of her normal meal. If she's fine after that, carry on feeding her as usual. But don't mess around in her cage after she's eaten :S That's probably what caused the regurge.

[NFS07]

Im sorry to hear about this Jenn but you know your not a bad mom, just a caring one. Can't really tell you much but sorry :-(

[Nanci]

That's pretty much why they come back up- they aren't digesting and are starting to rot. So usually that means food too big or not completely thawed. I really doubt you messing with her caused it. I think it's ok to check up on her if you want to- it isn't going to hurt anything at this point. I'd order some Nutribac from Kathy, now, just in case you get a second regurge.

Nanci

[Corny Noob]

Well I took her out last night anyway for less than a minute just to check on her because I was so worried. She really didn't want to be held and seemed very aggitated about it but other wise looked just fine upon quick inspection.
Like I said it still looked like it could have been a mouse after 48 hours, when I squeezed it in the baggy I thought the only non soft spot was it's bones, but it might have been not all the way thawed :/
Thank goodness I just picked up those pinkies...

[Nanci]

So from now on, thaw the mouse, then turn the water to really hot for a couple minutes to make sure the mouse is 101-103F. You can check this with a meat thermometer that you can buy in the grocery store for $10. I just measure the water temp and leave the mouse in it for a minute or two, after it is thawed. It might be easier to not thaw it in the bag. You can just dry them off with a paper towel.

Nanci

[Matthew]

Sorry to hear that, Jenn.

Tomorrow is Tootse's first feeding on a larger prey item, so I'm a tad bit worried myself. My problem would be size, not it being still frozen, though.

Good luck on her coming up feeding! Nagini above me recommended 10 days, but I'd feed her again when she's due the next time (I'm assuming 5 day schedule)? So if she regurged on the 17th, I'd wait 4-5 days after her next scheduled feeding, not 10.

I'm no expert though, so I might be wrong. 10 just seems like an awfully long time to let her stomach enzymes build back up.

[Corny Noob]

Well she was due again on....Sunday and that is clearly too soon. So another 5 days after that would put her at the 25th. Which puts her at a week since the regurge and 15 days after he last meal.

[Nanci]

FAQ from Kathy Love on Regurgitation Treatment

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT - once a snake has regurged, especially twice or more, it is more likely to keep on regurging until it dies, unless something is changed about its care and feeding. It is very important NOT to let this continue. PLEASE FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW VERY CAREFULLY. This is from my FAQ on regurges:

I suspect your problem is probably not bad mice, but about handling too soon, feeding too soon or too large of a meal, a stomach "bug", or improper temps. If you make these mistakes once, or even twice, it is not usually a problem if you FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY. But remember, each time it regurges, the stomach acids are depleted, and the whole electrolyte balance is thrown off more and more each time, and it makes it MORE likely that it will continue to throw up until it dies. (those consequences are just my opinions - I do not know if science backs up my conclusions, but my experience certainly does!) That is why it is so important to NOT ALLOW another regurge.

The next month or two is crucial. DO NOT feed it for AT LEAST 8 days since the last regurge. NOT ANYTHING AT ALL! Then get a newborn frozen pinky and cut it in half (or cut off just the head) If she eats it, leave her alone for a whole week. (no handling). Repeat the partial pinkie feeding the following week. Then feed a whole newborn pinkie a week after that, if there has been no regurge. Leave alone for a whole week. If she regurges, wait a week and repeat 1/2 pinkie. If she keeps it down, wait a week and repeat whole pinkie. If she holds down a couple of meals, DO NOT rush back into larger meals and more handling. Treat this seriously. Go very slowly. After 3 successful meals, go to a newborn pink every 5 days. Go back to normal feedings only after 6 successful meals. Always wait to handle until after 3 or 4 days, but only AFTER 6 successful meals. No handling until then (causes stress, need to keep stress down). And NEVER feed again right after a regurge - ALWAYS wait AT LEAST 7 or 8 days, maybe even up to 10 days, and then only feed something that was about 1/2 the size (or less) of what she regurged..

Also, be sure that temps are not too warm or cool. Try to give an area of low to mid 80s on one side and 70s on the other. Too hot or cold will cause regurges.

Grapefruit seed extract can sometimes help if the snake has some sort of "stomach bug" (any microbial problem) as it is a natural remedy that is good against many kinds of pathogens, but not as strong as an antibiotic prescribed by a doctor. This product has been used in agriculture for many years and seems to be very safe, as long as you dilute it with enough water that the acidity does not burn the tissues. A vet has told me he feels that it may somewhat alter the pH of the animal and thus change the way medicines are absorbed. So if you use this product and then take the snake to a vet, mention the treatment so it can be taken into account if the vet decides to change the prescription because of it. It is best to mix it in a glass and taste it to make sure it is not so bitter that the snake refuses to drink it. I have used it on myself and so has my husband. I find it works better on stomach problems than for other symptoms (such as respiratory - I didn't have any luck treating colds or other respiratory problems).You can buy it at a local health food store or online. Please refer to the following website for more background info:
http://www.nutriteam.com/index2.html

I have also had success with a probiotic called Nutri Bac, a fine powder containing seven different microflora that should be inhabiting the gut of reptiles, but may be absent due to stress, disease, antibiotic treatments, etc. Using the powder as a supplement will sometimes allow the reptile to get back the natural balance of microbes in its digestive tract, and then its own immune system can take over. See my website for more details, or go here:
http://www.cornutopia.com/Corn%20Ut...information.htm

The number of days and amounts of food, etc, suggested above are not set in stone. Other people may have success with slightly different formulas, but this is what I found works for me and many of my customers. If this protocol does not work when carefully followed, it is likely that the snake has some severe problems. Your only hope is a QUALIFIED herp vet, who may or may not be able to save your pet.

Please follow my care sheet for the first month or so when starting with new acquisitions (posted on my website for the first month's care of new corns).. The first month is crucial in getting the baby established. It is worth a little extra "coddling" for the first month in order to have a trouble free pet for the next 10 or 15 years or more.

Good luck!
Kathy Love

CONTACT INFO:

CORNUTOPIA / Kathy Love
Captive-Bred Cornsnakes

WEB: http://www.CornUtopia.com
TEL: (239) 728 2390
Backup tel. # 239-691-4414 (Cell)
EMAIL: kathy@CornUtopia.com

[texastailfeathers]

You're a much better snake mom than I was my first time. The first snake I ever had years ago ate frozen pinkies for his first three feedings. FROZEN.

I figured there was no way a snake would eat a frozen mouse, so I'd put the pinkies into the viv and go to bed. I was sure he'd just wait 'til they were thawed. Nope! I happened to walk back into the room for some reason a few minutes later and watched my snake happily gulp down a solid frozen mouse. :eek1:

I felt REALLY bad when I saw that.

[Corny Noob]

I've already read it religiously a few times, but thankyou for posting again.
I want to just point out that this isn't another one of those "omg my snake regurged what do I do?!" topics, I was just upset and wanted someone to talk to :sobstory:

[Matthew]

Well she was due again on....Sunday and that is clearly too soon. So another 5 days after that would put her at the 25th. Which puts her at a week since the regurge and 15 days after he last meal.

Yeah, the 25th is when I was thinking would be okay. It sounded like I was saying 4-5 days after the regurge, but I meant 4-5 days after her next scheduled feeding.

Edit: Ah, Nanci to the rescue as always. Thanks :)

[Nanci]

I've already read it religiously a few times, but thankyou for posting again.
I want to just point out that this isn't another one of those "omg my snake regurged what do I do?!" topics, I was just upset and wanted someone to talk to :sobstory:

I know how you feel! Maizey just went through a multiple regurging spell. My first snake!! I thought I had it handled after the first one, but when it continued, I got really scared! She's had three meals now that stayed down, but I am still really scared until the third day passes and I'm sure the mouse is going to stay down. I can't even imagine how frightening it would be with a tiny hatchling. Maizey lost over 100g!

Nanci

[Corny Noob]

Well thank god she's not a hatchling but a yearling, I would probally be crying.
Because I know how much I've read how very likely it is that hatclings die after regurgs cause their sooo tiny.
Of course Nagini is only 28g but at least she's bigger.

[Corny Noob]

Just a weird concern. I know that most snakes do and should eat the food head first.
She ate it ass end first, could that has possibly made it difficult for her in anyway? I know it seems like I'm grasping at straws but I'm just trying to explore every option.

[Nanci]

That doesn't matter. Snakes usually eat head first because the prey goes down easier that way. They don't seem to care that much with pinks and fuzzies, though. How the snake finds the head is it pokes around on the mouse and feels the direction of hair growth and looks for the hard skull- both of whilch are harder to determine on pinks and fuzzies.

Nanci

[Corny Noob]

Alright just thought I'd rule it out.
When I dropped it in her feeding container the ass end was facing her so she just went for it first heh.

[Nanci]

My guess is it was probably just too big. Just because they can get it down doesn't mean everything's ok.

Nanci

[Nanci]

Her warm side is the right temp, right? Doesn't matter if she goes there or not, just that she can if she needs to.

Nanci

[waldo]

You might want to start slitting the pinkies for awhile too, it will make them easier to digest.

[Corny Noob]

Yeah I checked all of that already Nanci temps are exactly what they should be.
I decided just to be safe though I'm going to clean her out today. She hasn't had fresh bedding (aside from spot cleaning) since the 7th. So I figure that I will change her to newspaper during this time so that I can moniter her more easily, because I certainlly don't want to leave her uncleaned once I start trying to feed her again, so I had better do it now before I start with the food again since I don't want to risk the stress.

[Corny Noob]

My guess is it was probably just too big. Just because they can get it down doesn't mean everything's ok.

Nanci

Well the fuzzy was only 4g and I'm even under feeding her according to the Munson plan...

[Nanci]

:shrugs: I don't know. That sure doesn't sound too big. I'd order Nutribac now, so if it happens again, you have it. You can just put a pinch in her water, too.

Nanci

[Corny Noob]

Yeah so it wasn't even a consideration to me that it might be to big...which is why I feel responsible >_<

[Nanci]

Well, if you _did_ cause it by bothering her, at least you can just not do that again. You don't have to worry about something being wrong.

Nanci

[suecornish]

So from now on, thaw the mouse, then turn the water to really hot for a couple minutes to make sure the mouse is 101-103F. You can check this with a meat thermometer that you can buy in the grocery store for $10. I just measure the water temp and leave the mouse in it for a minute or two, after it is thawed. It might be easier to not thaw it in the bag. You can just dry them off with a paper towel.

Nanci


I thaw mine with hot water. Generally when the water cools down I empty and put another round of hot water in. I'll feel it just before feeding and to make doubley sure it's thawed soak it it more hot water while I get Gaia out and handle her a few minutes and weigh her. I then drain the water off and put the mouse in her feeding cage. I worry that she is not getting water (even though she probably is) and this way I know she is getting some moisture from the mouse. Gaia had her first fuzzy last Sunday. She burrows in her aspen also but I just leave her be.

[Corny Noob]

Well, if you _did_ cause it by bothering her, at least you can just not do that again. You don't have to worry about something being wrong.

Nanci

Well yeah, but the paper is also going to help me because I'll at least be able to see the bump in the paper. If it is because I bothered her this must all just be because I'm brand new, I mean I know I can't expect to see her all the time, I just don't want her to have escaped and me not know it for several days because I never checked up on her >_<
I weighed her really quick before putting her in her feeding container to wait for me to clean she's 29 grams :/ she's only gained 5 grams, but of course that was only her second feeding with me...

[Nanci]

Maizey just regurged her two 14g hoppers...

Nanci

[Corny Noob]

Oh no :/
Sorry to hear that Nanci.

[Nanci]

Well, she has to get another fecal done in a week or two- but I don't see how four dewormings could not have taken care of any parasites...

Nanci

[Jase&Sarah]

I'm very sorry to hear about that. I know what's it's like. My hatchling snow corn just got over a regurge and held down her first meal since. Hopefully everything will be ok with yours and mine.

[suecornish]

Could it be because the deworming somehow has removed all the good bugs in her gut also?

[Nanci]

I've been giving her Nutribac on the mice she's kept down...I just feel so hopeless right now- like she's just going to keep puking until she starves to death. I don't know what the answer is. She can't live on a 14g mouse a week...

Nanci

[Rorryy]

Going back to the first couple posts... you said you could'nt tell if it was a regurge or just "the mouse". Are you not feeding in a seperate enclosure? Doing that would be the first good way to tell if it was a regurge or "just the mouse" that wasn't taken. :crazy02: Just curious. Everyone has their way of doing things and "whatever works" for you. One of the first things I learned from the good people here was to always feed in a seperate enclosure for multiple reasons. Again I am just curious, and I hope your Nagini is ok and keeps down her subsequent feedings.
Angela

[Corny Noob]

I think you misunderstood me.
The whole mouse issue was me questioning whether or not the regurg was due to the mouse not being ok, or due to me bothering her.
When I was questioning the mouse I was discussing how it didn't seem very digested after 48 hours. Sorry for the confusion, but thankyou for the well wishes, 5 more days untill I try and feed her again :)

Nanci, since poor Mazi is obviously been seeing the Vet do they have anything to say about her constant regurging? I'm so sorry to hear that things are not working out very well for her, but don't give up ok?

[Corny Noob]

Just a quick little bump to say that I fed Nagini on friday a pinkie. I've been away since sunday morning so hopefully when I go home tonight (I'm still away) to handle her there will only be a poop and no regurg.
Keeping my fingers crossed.

[Nanci]

Maizey's fecal had no parasites today. Yay. I said to the vet "So why is she regurging?" He said with out $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ of diagnostic testing, with which whatever we might or might not find would very likely be untreatable- I should just offer smaller meals more often. He said sometimes chronic regurges can be caused by an enlarged heart, diverticulosis, any number of intestinal defects. I guess tomorrow I'll put her on a hopper every five days.

Let us know how Nagini is!

Nanci

[diamondlil]

Oh Nanci, I'm so sorry to hear that. Thank goodness Maizey has such a commited owner, if anyone can sort her out, I'm sure you can

[Corny Noob]

Well Nanci that seems encouraging to me, if the worst you have to do is just feed her smaller more frequently I'd count her lucky then she gets fed more often ;) I'm sure it'll all work out.

So I'm home now and Nagini left me a spectacular poop :)
Tomorrow is the next feeding so hopefully this will all be ok.

[diamondlil]

Fingers crossed for Nagini!

[Nanci]

I bet Nagini's fine and it was a fluke- but I'd still feed conservatively for a while. You don't want to be in my boat.

Nanci

[Corny Noob]

I'm hoping it was just a fluke as well but yes I will still be careful with her for the next couple of feedings.
I feel bad for her though because she must be so hungry and all she's getting is a pinky right now.

[Corny Noob]

Alright today is feeding day again and I'm hoping for everything to go well.
She's been pretty active at night since this regurg, I guess pinkies aren't quite cutting it for her little tummy.
Now I have a question, I know she is supposed to be eatting smaller prey items right now, but I'm worried that one pink every 4-5 days isn't enough for her body right now. The fuzzies I was feeding her were kinda undersized for her weight too, so I'm wondering if it would be ok to give her two undersized pinks this time so that she's not so foragy.

[Corny Noob]

Well no one answered so I made my own decision
:grin01:

I fed her the two pinks and it turned out just fine she poo'd yesterday. Two sucessful meals after the regurg, 6 gram weight gain in her first month and she's going to get put back on normal prey items monday or tuesday :cool:

[Nanci]

Maizey kept her hopper down, too. I put Nutribac on it's rear end. I'm putting her on a five day schedule of hoppers for a while.

Nanci

[Corny Noob]

Well something is better than nothing! Here's hoping it keeps working out for you two.