I think I killed her...

[DragonBoy]

I have had a troublesome hatchling that I purchased off a reptile dealer a few weeks ago at one of the shows I attended. She ate the first week, and then stopped. She passed the skin of the pinky she ate. A perfect empty skin. I had never seen anything like it, but then read on here that some do that. Since then I have been splitting skins and all that.
The doc gave me some stuff to force feed this girl with, because she is down now after all these weeks to a rack of bones. The stuff he gave me is called jump start. Comes with a handy feeding tube attachment. I got it into her and gave her the amount doc said...put her back in her shoe box and she has not moved since. When force fed do they just pass out? I swear her eyes are still responding but she has not moved in over an hour. Help... :shrugs:

[Eriathiel]

Well most snakes tend to relax and need some quiet time after they eat - which is why its recommended that you leave them alone for 48 hours after feeding. I'm sure she isn't feeling very healthy since she hasn't been eating, and force feeding can be stressful. My snakes normally hide after eating - and I don't see them even during the times they normally come out to explore the cage.

I'm sorry to hear she isn't doing well, but I don't think there is much else you can do - just leave her alone and keep her under as little stress as possible. I hope things get better!

[Roy Munson]

I'm sorry to hear that you're having problems with the snake. But what kind of help are you looking for? I've never force-fed a snake, but I don't think it would make one "pass out". Can you see her breathing even?

If she was on the edge, the stress of the force-feed may have pushed her over. But you shouldn't beat yourself up over it. They don't all make it. Had she ever eaten prior to you purchasing her?

"Rack of bones" sounds like a rough description. When a hatchling gets to that stage, there isn't much hope. You may want to consider euthanizing her if she hasn't already passed. It may be the most merciful option. :(

[Susan]

Tube feeding is extremely stressful, and if a snake is very weak and thin to begin with, the process may be fatal. I hate to say it, but if your snake doesn't move even a little when touched, then she may have passed away. You have done everything possible and please don't blame yourself for her passing. If she was that weak before the tube feeding, she was not going to make it no matter what you did or didn't do. I'm sorry.

[DragonBoy]

thanks...she is my only carmel to date. Someone told me that the yellow can be problematic but I am hoping this was not what they were speaking of. She has moved in her pen so I am going to just leave well enough alone. Thanks for the pep talk.

[sargeoif]

How long have you had it in a shoe box?

[Roy Munson]

How long have you had it in a shoe box?
Probably a plastic Rubbermaid or Sterilite type container, not a cardboard box.

:-offtopic Signatures should not exceed four lines, including blank lines between text lines.

[attackturtle]

How long have you had it in a shoe box?

I was wondering if anybody was going to mention the elephant in the room...

I reviewed his previous posts and am sure Dragonboy is taking care of his snakes well. I assume he is referring to a stand with several plastic boxes. He has pictures of them here
http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53834

[DragonBoy]

My baby corn pens are a standard 5.5 qt or 6qt depending on manufacturer plastic shoe boxes. they have a row of heat tape at the back, and the tops are drilled for air circulation. I used to drill the sides but the condensation issues caused me to rethink that and got me to drilling the tops. Sorry I did not clarify that it was not a cardboard shoebox.

[sargeoif]

was wondering if anybody was going to mention the elephant in the room...

wtf is that suppose to mean? On that note thank for the link. But yeah man some snakes are just ment to live I had one that I bought from a pet store that pretty much starved to death. Have you tried feeding it live since then? Sometimes you can get em to come around by doing that.

[Roy Munson]

wtf is that suppose to mean? :roflmao: It was no comment against you. You were the first one to mention that there was an elephant in the room. (Metaphor for a big, overlooked thing.)

[jaxom1957]

The doc gave me some stuff to force feed this girl with, because she is down now after all these weeks to a rack of bones. The stuff he gave me is called jump start. Comes with a handy feeding tube attachment. I got it into her and gave her the amount doc said...put her back in her shoe box and she has not moved since. When force fed do they just pass out? I swear her eyes are still responding but she has not moved in over an hour. Help... First question: how much did you give her? If this is a hatchling, it should have been no more than 2cc. When administering, did you feel the tube pass through the throat prior to plunging it to avoid flooding her lung?

Force feeding is stressful, and it is not uncommon for a snake to lie quite still for a period of time, but an hour is excessive. Does she move when touched? If lifted, is there any curl response? If the dose left a visible bulge, has the bulge progressed further down her body? Each of those would indicate that she is merely stressed and recovering quietly. A complete lack of response may indicate that either the feeding went awry or she was too week to to combat the stress.

Your snake, if she recovers from the treatment, might be better served by force feeding a small pinkie rather than medication. Gather together a couple of wooden toothpicks (tips blunted so as not to injure her) and a blunt rod with a tip small enough to pass through the snake's jaws. I use either a six gauge piercing taper (which you might not have handy :grin01: ) or a stylus from my PDA. Find the smallest small pinkie you can and warm it until it is very toasty to the touch, about 100 degrees or so. Hold the snake between your thumb and forefinger, directly behind the jaws and firm enough to control head movement. Use a toothpick to gently open her mouth, then lay the toothpick across her jaws to hold her mouth open. Put the pinkie, snout first, into her mouth from the front while sliding the toothpick out the side. You will probably want to hold the pinkie rather firmly on its sides so that your pressure will force it into her throat rather than just bulging the pinkie's torso out. Use the fingers that are controlling her head to prevent her from pushing the pinkie back out while you are repositioning the push rod to force more of the pinkie in. You will be able to feel the pinkie as it passes by your fingers, enough to relax pressure while it passes and then reapply to hold it. The pinkie may split open. Yes, that's messy and a pain to try to force in, a gelatinous mass that wants to go anywhere but the direction you are pushing. Do your best to get it into her throat; it does get easier with practice. Once you have the entire pinkie inside her throat and mouth HOLD HER MOUTH SHUT. Do not let her open it, because her first instinct will be to regurge it right back into your hand. Gently stroke her throat, assisting the pinkie further down. I usually try to get it at least two or three pinkie body lengths down the throat before I let the snake go.

Practice on your feeding hatchlings. Get a feel for how much pressure is needed to control head movement, how to open their tiny mouths by sliding the toothpick in from the side. The practice you put in with them will reduce the amount of time it takes with her, keeping her stress to a minimum. Much of force feeding is learning how much or how little pressure to use: on the snake's head, on the pinkie, on the push rod, etc. Gentle but firm.

I hope this helps.

[Roy Munson]

Practice on your feeding hatchlings. Get a feel for how much pressure is needed to control head movement, how to open their tiny mouths by sliding the toothpick in from the side. The practice you put in with them will reduce the amount of time it takes with her, keeping her stress to a minimum. Much of force feeding is learning how much or how little pressure to use: on the snake's head, on the pinkie, on the push rod, etc. Gentle but firm.I dunno, man. I usually agree with you, but I can't say that I'd advise anyone to practice stressful force-feeding techniques on hatchlings that are already feeding. It sounds like a "spend a dollar to earn a dime" proposal. Granted, there are some who would eat if you fed them a Vienna sausage and surrounded them with flashbulbs and firecrackers, but...

[ghosthousecorns]

I agree, BTW those were excellent instructions on how to force feed, I've had to do it, but I wouldn't practice on a snake that was already established - I'd be afraid to 'mess up a good thing'. And the sad but true part is, I have never, ever force fed a snake that went on to thrive and be a good eater. I ended up euthanizing one baby snake after trying to keep it alive by force feeding for months and watching it get more and more lethargic, and had another one just die in spite of my attempts to keep it alive. It's hard because I have a soft spot in my heart for the smaller 'underdog' hatchlings, but as sad as it is, some just weren't meant to live. I give my hatchlings a lot of leeway and plenty of chances to start eating, but if they won't eat I just won't make them do it anymore. I haven't tried the vienna sausage, flashbulbs, and firecrackers technique but I probably have some snakelings that are backwards enough that would actually work though ROFL

[DragonBoy]

Just a quick note...I found her in the water dish when I checked on the snakes before turning off the lights for the night, and she had crossed the Rainbow Bridge. Thanks for all the great replys and all the words of encouragement. I learned a good deal thru all this let me tell you.
Thanks again.
Scott

[Corny Noob]

I'm very sorry to hear of your loss, you did your best.

I would contact the person you got the snake from now, if you haven't already.

[Annihilation-]

i know how you feel man...mine just died tonight aswell :cry: :( ...ill be quite honest im rather depressed about it...but...mistakes made and learned from...i just need to make sure i dont make the same mistakes again...

[rolandslf]

Hi all, The Force Feeding Procedure described by J is exactly as he says, it is
almost a synchronised art form trying to do everything at once without injuring the snake. It is the only way I do it, I have as stated in another thread unfortunately killed 2 hatchlings previously but the one I am busy with now "Lucky" seems to be thriving.
BTW J, Lucky shed yesterday.

Ciao

[jaxom1957]

I dunno, man. I usually agree with you, but I can't say that I'd advise anyone to practice stressful force-feeding techniques on hatchlings that are already feeding. It sounds like a "spend a dollar to earn a dime" proposal. Granted, there are some who would eat if you fed them a Vienna sausage and surrounded them with flashbulbs and firecrackers, but...No, no, no! That wasn't what I was suggesting practicing. How to hold a snake to control its head, how to open its mouth with a toothpick, that's what I meant to suggest practicing. No food involved, just handling the snake. I am so sorry if anyone thought I meant unnecessarily force feeding a hatchling! God, NO!

[jaxom1957]

the one I am busy with now "Lucky" seems to be thriving. BTW J, Lucky shed yesterday.Excellent! If there is shedding, there is growth :) This evening, I find myself the new caretaker of eight homeless hypo waifs needing feeding lessons. I was expecting a couple or a few...I got a clutch! :rolleyes: My goal is to get them all eating on their own and established and then farm them out to good homes, save for one pair of keepers. I'll have to start a thread for them and let folks know how it goes with real time updates.

[RavenSpirit360]

Im sorry about your baby, but you did all you could. Some snakes just arent meant to survive. Whether force feeding her helped her or made her worse is not your fault either. You took her to the doctor and headed his advise, he should know whats best, but they don't always give the best advise on reptiles unfortunately. But You did everything you should. I am sorry she didnt make it and I hope you don't beat yourself up over it..
And to Annhilation, I am sorry about your baby too..

[CALIVIK]

I was just chkin' in on you...so sorry for your loss! Please don't be hard on yourself. You did what the Vet said to do. God Bless!


Sincerely,

[Roy Munson]

No, no, no! That wasn't what I was suggesting practicing. How to hold a snake to control its head, how to open its mouth with a toothpick, that's what I meant to suggest practicing. No food involved, just handling the snake. I am so sorry if anyone thought I meant unnecessarily force feeding a hatchling! God, NO!Ohhhhhhh! *smacks forehead*

[rolandslf]

Excellent! If there is shedding, there is growth :) This evening, I find myself the new caretaker of eight homeless hypo waifs needing feeding lessons. I was expecting a couple or a few...I got a clutch! :rolleyes: My goal is to get them all eating on their own and established and then farm them out to good homes, save for one pair of keepers. I'll have to start a thread for them and let folks know how it goes with real time updates..

Hey J, Why do I have to live so far away in South Africa. I can't even take advantage of those non feeding waifs. Oh well just have to carry on here trying to build up Morphs with nothing. Good luck with the feeding program.

Ciao

[MegF.]

I'm sorry to hear about your loss. I do not force feed any hatchlings. If they don't feed using all the tricks of scenting, slicing, dicing chopping and puree'ing, they are euthanized. IF they survive and go on to eat after force feeding, then there's a chance that someone who gets them will breed them. Our "forefathers" went to a great deal of trouble to create a good feeding snake that takes little to get eating. Why ruin it with a non-feeder? There's usually something wrong with the snake in the first place if it won't eat.

[jaxom1957]

I'm sorry to hear about your loss. I do not force feed any hatchlings. If they don't feed using all the tricks of scenting, slicing, dicing chopping and puree'ing, they are euthanized. IF they survive and go on to eat after force feeding, then there's a chance that someone who gets them will breed them. Our "forefathers" went to a great deal of trouble to create a good feeding snake that takes little to get eating. Why ruin it with a non-feeder? There's usually something wrong with the snake in the first place if it won't eat.I disagree with the last assumption: a poor feeding response may not indicate anything else at all. I've seen nothing that persuades me that a poor feeding hatchling, once it begins eating on its own, matures into a snake any less suitable for breeding.

[MegF.]

Well, there are those who would agree with you, but I still feel in the wild, it would die...therefore not passing on the gene. Survival of the fittest and all that. Instead we create survival of the unfittest. But to each it's own. I won't take a baby from someone who had to be forcefed to get it to eat. And this includes my chondros ( notorious for being difficult to get feeding)...if I know the history of the animal anyway...

[ghosthousecorns]

I won't force feed anymore as I said in my previous post, but I do think there are too many variables in the wild that we are unable to reproduce in captivity, to say a baby that won't eat for me in captivity wouldn't have eaten if it had hatched as a wild snake. But since I am producing snakes that are also (hopefully) going to stay in captivity I would want any offspring of my corns to be able to produce good feeders.
One thing I don't agree with, is euthanizing if a snake has refused a few meals or if it hasn't eaten in the first month. I believe they hatch with the 'reserves' to be able to go without food for some time, and have had many non eaters go for a month or more and then take a f/t with no problem and the only reason I can think of is that it took them some time to become hungry. I had a clutch hatch in the beginning of July, most of them ate already but some are just now taking their first meals, I guess for a big breeder who needs the space euthanizing the slow starters makes sense, but I have a small enough operation here to take a little time with the stubborn ones and for me almost all of these have gone on to eat without forcing. I've only had 2 or 3 exceptions that I ended up putting down out of a couple hundred babies over the 5 years I've been producing corns.

[MegF.]

I did not euthanize this hatchling until it had gone for nearly 4 months without taking more than one mouse tail. And that was forced. I swore I would never do it again. It wouldn't take scented with lizard as the other two would, nor would it take live, dead, slitted, washed, washed and scented, brained or any other way. It became so thin that I couldn't let it go any longer.

[ghosthousecorns]

I went through the same thing with a lovely female ghost motley last year. If they become lethargic and thin like that it is cruel to keep them alive, I wasn't referring to you in my post at all, Meg, it's just that I have seen people say they euthanize anything that doesn't eat after a few tries or in the first month. But my month old babies that haven't eaten yet are very active and they don't look thin.
BTW I just got a really small baby to eat a tiny premature pinky and it made my day... but I think a lot of people would have euthanized it on sight. 'Worm' as it (too small to pop without a microscope :eek1: ) is affectionately dubbed may be small but 'he' ate on his own and I think he deserves to live for that.

[MegF.]

I won't euthanize anything that eats, no matter how small it is. If they eat, they get a chance like all the rest. I suspect even the small ones catch up to the rest eventually. My small lavender is almost the same size as the bubblegums and he was much smaller than they were when I got him. It's just the way they are.

[Msterry]

Im very sorry for your loss DragonBoy.
This is the first time i have heard of using Jump-Start on a snake. I will have to remember this. I know it says it is a concentrated caloric supplement and appetite stimulant for reptiles and amphibians. I did'nt get a feeding tube with it either just the long white tube on the end. I got it for a beardie when he was off his food for a bit. To let those interested know it is not a prescribed med. You can find it at most pet shops if your interested. It is made by ESU Reptile.