Death Question

[Cam5]

Our sweet little 3&1/2 year old male corn snake died unexpectedly last evening.

He had gone off food in the spring. Had a few fine sheds, was eating every other week and seemed his "normal self"

We had cleaned out his enclosure per usual on Sunday and our 8 year old son (his pet) held him like always.

I went in to set up a new heat bulb last night about 7pm and noticed his eyes looke wrong...he was already dead at that point. (he had been moving around in the morning).

We are having a funeral this weekend and he is in a gallon size bag in a box in our garage...cooler there than the house (40* here in MN).

When I went to place him in the freezer today I noticed a green spot the size of an adult thumbprint on his belly a 1/3 of the way down and his body was noticeably bulged right after the green spot. (he is black and white snake so the green is easy to see against the white).

Does anyone know what may have caused his death? Our vet said "these things just happen". :shrugs: :bang:

Any information/resources would be VERY appreciated by all of us.
Thank you for your time.

[Rich in KY]

I am sorry for your loss :(

I can't help you with cause of death.

[Cam5]

Thank you. It is amazing how attatched we have gotten to this little guy. Our son has had a special connection with him from the time he first held him 3 years ago.
He keeps asking "why" what did I do" etc.

[Okeetee_Corn_Snakes]

I heard the little green spot in them is caused by the gall bladder releasing its fluids after death. Its a normal occurrence and I truthfully cannot help you find out why your snake died. You certainly have my condolences though, its never a fun day when a beloved pet dies.

[Sanebedlam]

Thank you. It is amazing how attatched we have gotten to this little guy. Our son has had a special connection with him from the time he first held him 3 years ago.
He keeps asking "why" what did I do" etc.

Thats really hard I am so sorry to hear about your loss. I am sorry I can't give you any insight into the cause but hopefully someone here can!

[Velvet]

I'm so so sorry for your loss! Losing a snake is never nice, especially one that you've had so long...

I am not sure about the green spot but the swelling sounds like he might have had some sort of blockage, perhaps it is just coincedence that it happened to be near the green splodge?

[bitsy]

I'm sure that the green splodge is a post-mortem event and not a contributory issue.

Could you tell us something about the setup that you used for him? After three and a half years it's not likely to be a husbandry issue, but I guess it's always good to check.

A few other thigns to consider:
- Were there any odd things about his body that you noticed recently? Any change in size/shape/swellings etc
- Any change to how often he was shedding
- Any change in behaviour
- Had you (or neighbours) been doing any decorating/home improvements/cleaning etc in your house that might have given off fumes?

Unfortunately without a necropsy by a knowledgeable vet, you're never going to be exactly sure what happened.

Sorry for your loss - it's hard at any age.

[Double het]

bitsy is correct.

The only way to know is indeed authopsie. For that it's best to put it in the refrigerator (NOT the freezer) and take it to the vet as soon as possible. As you already put him there i don't think you'll even find out. Be sure to either disinfect everything or throw it away.

[Cam5]

Thank you for explaining the green spot.
What might cause an obstruction?

His setup:
From hatchling to 6 months=*10 gallon long terrarium
*Paper towel substrate
*shallow water bowl
*warm and cool end hides (warm end 85* cool
end 75*)
*f/t pinkie mice
*ate every 10 days, shed at least once a month
*very sweet temperament
*had a heat rock for a day, then read about the
evils of the heat rock and tossd it
*overhead red heat bulb and warm end
*UTH but removed it after a week because he
was avoiding it

At 6 months to 2 years 20 gallon long terrarium:
*warm end 85* cool end 70-75*
*added two climbing branches
* the rest same as above (except increased size of the mice of course and gave him a water bowl he could swim in, he loved to swim.

At 2-3 years 30 gallon terrarium....rest same

At 3 years 55 gallon terrarium. This is when he went off food for about 4 months April-August. Fecal had one coccidia egg and one round worm egg. Treated for both parasites for 3 months. Lost about 8% of his body weight but was still very strong. I had posted for help...It was a thought that he was off food due to breeding season and not parasites so we stopped jammimg the meds down him and he returned to eating in about 4 weeks after.
I heated the mice in near boiling water to entice him...per a suggestion from the forum and it worked great!

The vet said the enclosure was too big and to change toa 20 gallon long. So we bought him a new 20 gallon long and added a hammock, along with the 4 quart water bowl, his two hides and a climbing log.

We have never used real logs etc. Clean with bleach, rinse, ammonia, rinse REALLY good with hot water and soap, then rinse with just hot water. Spot clean with Clorox wipes.

He had a bad shed right before he went off food, we added misting as part of his regime when he would go blue, and never had another bad shed.

A parent at his school yesterday said to him, "you can get another one"...he burst into tears and said he was rare and special and can't be replaced like a toy or something" :bang:

Thank you everyone...

[Nanci]

Are you sure he was a male, did he do a springtime hunger strike last spring, had he resumed eating after he went off feed this spring?

Yeah, it's all just speculation now...

I'm kind of glad that all my adults have been checked/treated for parasites.

I'm really sorry about your snake. I have one that has regurgitation issues that I wouldn't be surprised to find DRT some day. Which probably means it won't happen- it'll be an unexpected one.

Nanci

[Cam5]

Forgot to add that we had a 2.0 UVA light overhead since a couple years ago on a timer.
The only thing "fume" realated I coulod even think of is that we literally went from runing the AC to having to run the heat here in MN it went from upper 80"s to 40's in about a 3 day span...

[Cam5]

Are you sure he was a male, did he do a springtime hunger strike last spring, had he resumed eating after he went off feed this spring?

Yeah, it's all just speculation now...

I'm kind of glad that all my adults have been checked/treated for parasites.

I'm really sorry about your snake. I have one that has regurgitation issues that I wouldn't be surprised to find DRT some day. Which probably means it won't happen- it'll be an unexpected one.

Nanci

We had the vet probe him at his checkup when he turned 3...right after is when he stopped eating. That was the first time he had ever missed a meal.
What is DRT?
Good luck with your guy.

[Cam5]

Forgot, yes he returned to eating. He ate 2 times between September and yesterday, every other week...which was less than before but I thought he was maybe colling down for the winter...Last year he did not eat as much going into the winter?

[sandybunny]

I am so sorry for your loss. Do you think your son will want another one? A special pet can't be replaced, but maybe after some time he could love another one. :cry:

[Nanci]

What is DRT?

Dead Right There. As opposed to DOA, Dead On Arrival. Usually used in reference to car accidents.

Nanci

[Flagg]

If you had just cleaned and then several days later he was unexpectedly dead, maybe it was some kind of chemical residue. I wonder about those clorox wipes for spot cleaning as well. I'm not too familiar with them, are they bleach?

There's no way to know now unfortunately. It looks like he had a history of health issues, so it could have been anything. Did the vet not mention a necropsy when you asked? Is the vet a herp specialist? Maybe there was an existing condition that the vet just didn't notice.

[Random8A]

I'm very sorry for your loss! Nothing can replace your special corn.

Rest In Peace.

[Twizzy]

Awww..really sorry to hear about the loss of your beloved snake. Possible in time your son will consider another and maybe even go with a different morph so it seems even more different. I lost a young one this spring that I'd purchased and I know it is tough and folks think we are silly but you get very attached to them. I really hope your family recovers soon and best wishes to you all!!!

[Cam5]

Thank you everyone.

The vet is a herp vet...after 4 others she was acyually the most knowledgeable but did not mention a necropsy. It never even entered my emotional mind at the time either and now that he is in the freezer I messed that up.

I will look into the Clorox wipes...another suggestion from the vet.

Does anyone here use Novalscon as a cleaner? I was just going to order some this weekend...

Maybe once he has ahd some time he will want to find a new little friend. I really can't imagine him without a special little guy to be the "proud papa" of. And that snake helped more people get over their fear of snakes...our entire neighborhood and half of his school.

I like the idea of a different morph. If he brings it up down the road I will suggest it.

Everything is going in the trash tomorrow. He wants to leave everything just how it is...we will have to work through that.

Thanks for the explanation of DRT...I am hopeless...I need to get up to speed we will have a teenager in a couplle years!

Take care.

I am going to search "obstructions" and see what I come up with...

[MegF.]

I use novolsan or the equivalent chlorhexidine to clean. It is completely non toxic and diluted can even be used to clean wounds and mouth rot etc. It is so odd that it should happen, but sometimes there's no telling what causes sudden death. I'm very sorry for your loss! I'm surprised the vet would suggest that the tank was too large for him. As an adult he should have done well in a tank as large as yours. I housed my big amel in one that big. He was a big snake though and quite active.

[Cam5]

Could it have been cryptosporidium infestation?

[Cam5]

From what I have been reading I have a sneaking, sick feeling that crpto was the cause.

As I read more and more peoples accounts, in hindsight we had noticed a small mid belly bump, thought it was just undigested food and were just very relieved he was eating and figured his system was meerly digesting slower since he had been off food for so long.

Everything went to heck in a handbasket right after his vet checkup. So perhaps the sexing probe was infected or he already was a carrier and the stress brought on the decline...??? :shrugs:

[sandybunny]

What exactly is crypto?

[Cam5]

A microscopic parasite. There are different strains for reptiles, mammals, humans etc.

There appears to be no cure...just euthinasia. In humans we get diarrhea etc.

It can apparently lie dormant, not causing the snake any trouble until it becomes stressed at some point.

To diagnose you would need to know to ask for a gastric lavage as the fecal samples are not accurate.

I had searched "belly bump" and this site and it came up...
If you go to the Search and enter crypto or cryptosporidium there are a few great threads with a lot of information...

[carolinacorn69]

the green spot will just be the start of it decomposing, and the swelling is also part, the stomach fills with gas and it swells. I see this alot doing taxidermy, animals that have been picked up on the road that are starting to rot always have a green swolen belly.
I cant help you with the cause of death.
Very sorry to hear about your loss.

[MegF.]

Well, whether or not it was related to being at the vet is unknown. You could have a thousand snakes go to the vet and get stressed in the same way and yet recover. I think in most cases (this was a thread here) that most of our snakes are harboring crypto and it remains a dormant asymptomatic disease. Much like a lot of the bacterias we carry in our bodies. Some animals for whatever reason, stress, a depressed immune system, whatever, will end up with the active form of the disease. As stated though, I understand that even if they have it, you can sometimes test negative for it and it requires 3-4 tests to confirm. The oocytes have to be present to test positive and they don't always shed them at the time you're testing.
One question though: How big a snake was your 3 year old? Was he undersized or about average for his age? There is a variable in size, but most 3 year olds run about the same size give or take maybe 6 inches. I'm just wondering if he was a case that just maybe never thrived even with perfect care. I know he was eating and such, but was he growing normally with the food he was getting etc? Just trying to see if perhaps there was something that might point to his not surviving.

[Cam5]

I guess part of pets is loss and not always being able to control when that loss happens...but even knowing that does not "make it better".

Stretchy was about 42 inches (give or take a curve) and weighed 343 grams about one week prior. Is this small?

(Before he went off food he was 353 grams, dropped to 328 grams and was regainging after he'd resumed eating)

[MegF.]

He was about average. A slender snake though. Mine are about 51 inches and around 500 grams. There is variation though and he's not where I would think he was too small.

[Cam5]

Wow that is quite a differnce on their little bodies...I guess if our son ever asks about havong another little companion, I know who to get it from... :)

[MegF.]

You've only to ask!