Amel X Bloodred = ... Snow! (among other things)

[Serpwidgets]

Hopefully this is a sneak peek at my '02 clutch. These are the '01 hatchlings from the same pairing I'm doing this year. The pics were taken a few days after hatching, when they were all opaque, but that was the only time I had use of a camera...

[Serpwidgets]

MaVc01-01
http://serpwidgets.com/freepics/cornsnakes/mavc01/mavc01-01.jpg

[Serpwidgets]

MaVc01-02
http://serpwidgets.com/freepics/cornsnakes/mavc01/mavc01-02.jpg

[Serpwidgets]

MaVc01-03
http://serpwidgets.com/freepics/cornsnakes/mavc01/mavc01-03.jpg

[Serpwidgets]

Flake (MaVc01-05)
http://serpwidgets.com/freepics/cornsnakes/mavc01/mavc01-05.jpg

[Serpwidgets]

MaVc01-18
http://serpwidgets.com/freepics/cornsnakes/mavc01/mavc01-18.jpg

[Serpwidgets]

Flake (at about 2 months old)
http://serpwidgets.com/freepics/cornsnakes/Flake_1001_006.jpg

[Serpwidgets]

Flake (at about 6 months old)
http://serpwidgets.com/freepics/posts0202/Flake_Portrait_0201_01.jpg

[Simon]

Great pics you for there!!!
But then I just want to ask, what phase would you call the second photo that you posted?

[Alicia]

Good luck with this years clutch :)

[Serpwidgets]

The second one is Amelanistic. The amels (7 or 8 of them in all) in this clutch were incredibly bright after that first shed. (although they're the only "fresh" amel hatchlings I've had or seen, so that may be normal)

I dunno how much they change as they grow, but the pink borders (which would turn white I assume?) are super-wide, so it might have turned out to be a Reverse Okeetee by now.

[Kevin M]

Hey Serp, What are the traits of the parents of this (last years) clutch?

-Kev

[Serpwidgets]

The parents are Mary, a Bloodred (het charcoal, amel, anery) and Vic, an Amel (het Anery)

Thus the ID tags "MaVc01-##." :)

Mother
http://serpwidgets.com/freepics/posts0202/Mary_Belly_0202_1.jpg

Father
http://serpwidgets.com/freepics/posts0202/Vic_0202_3.jpg

[Kevin M]

Wow. That's quite a project you got there. Mary is exquisite. Why it everyone elses corns look better than mine?

Yes, I suffer from the grass is greener syndrome.

-Kev

[Simon]

The parents of them looks great! That amel sure looks nice! If it turns out to be a reverse okeetee, I would say that it's even better....cause it looks prettier. But heck.....I say all corn snakes out there are just GREAT snakes!!!

[ROACHMAN]

That is some seriously lovely snakes wish there was a selection like that here in SA....WOW

[CornsnakeKeeper]

Ahh... nice pictures. For some reason, hatchling photos are always my favorites!

[lian]

great snakes

[abell82]

Pardon me for asking but what makes Mary a blood other than the reduced patterned belly?She appears to have the pattern of most normals.:confused:

[Serpwidgets]

Originally posted by abell82
Pardon me for asking but what makes Mary a blood other than the reduced patterned belly?She appears to have the pattern of most normals.:confused:
I think if you saw her in person you wouldn't say that.

Her belly is not reduced pattern, it is without pattern. There are small random freckles of black, but no signs of checkering or any type of pattern.

If you look at the pewter pictured in the Corn Snake Manual, who incidentally is her father, her pattern is very similar to his. Her saddles blend into the ground color on the sides, and the "side blotches" are barely present, and fade in from the ground color instead of being defined by sharp edges. Pictures tend to show more contrast than she actually has.

http://serpwidgets.com/cornsnakes/forsale/Mary_0502.jpg

All in all, she is not the best example of the selectively-bred "bloodreds" that we all think of with that name, but she's most certainly not normally-patterned, and she is expressing the known trait that is also called bloodred. :)

Also, here's an '02 Pewter from Kathy Love, named Bluestreak. He's from the same pewter father, so he's a half-brother to Mary. Very similar pattern on him, too.
http://serpwidgets.com/freepics/posts0902/Bluestreak_0902_001.jpg

[Jr Nimeskern]

Those are some very nice snakes... I cant wait till my babies hatch! Now out of curiousity Serp how can anyone tell if there bloodred corn snake... is a normal that is expressing the bloodred ventral pattern? or if its a true Bloodred? since both of the young look the same... how can you tell?

[Serpwidgets]

Now out of curiousity Serp how can anyone tell if there bloodred corn snake... is a normal that is expressing the bloodred ventral pattern? or if its a true Bloodred? since both of the young look the same... how can you tell?
I could be wrong, because I really haven't had that much experience with bloodreds, and I've yet to hatch any, but it's my understanding that the simple mutation in question causes not only the loss of belly checkering, but also the reduction or elimination of side blotches and the fading of the sides of the saddles.

I'm sure those pattern effects are offset by other influences and/or variability within individuals, just like with motleys... some are extreme, some are mild. I'd be willing to bet that if you bred the same bloodred male to an Okeetee female and an Upper Keys female, and then bred the offspring to their siblings, you would get drastically different-looking F2 "bloodreds" between the two sets of clutches.

I think the problem is in the nomenclature. It's my opinion that the "true" bloodreds are analogous to Reverse Okeetees. They are both expressing a simple trait (one the bloodred trait, the other amelanism) but they are distinct from the other form because of multiple other influences. If you were to breed an amelanistic to an Okeetee, you would not get a predictable ratio of 1 in 16 F2 offspring being "reverse Okeetees." You would however get a predictable ratio of 1 in 4 F2 offspring expressing amelanism.

From what I've gathered, the same holds true of bloodreds. If you breed a "true" bloodred to a normal, you get F2 offspring that are expressing the simple pattern trait in a predictable ratio, but, just like with the Reverse Okeetees, I don't think very many of them will look as extreme as the original "true" bloodred. The problem is that the "trait" has the name bloodred, and so does the "morph" which has been selectively-bred to achieve looks above and beyond that provided by the simple trait.

Which one is the "true" bloodred? I don't know. I don't like the question... depending on your perspective, it's like asking which one is the "true" amel? ;)

Anyway, I'm rambling... I don't know if it's possible to know for sure which gray-headed or plain-bellied offspring will be the best bloodreds, any more than it's possible to know for sure which amelanistic offspring will develop the most extreme oranges and become the best examples of "reverse Okeetee." I would imagine someone who has hatched a lot of them would be able to say something like "least belly freckles" or "baldest head pattern" or whatever. But I honestly don't know, and I hope to find out before I start hatching my own bloodreds. ;)

[Hurley]

Wow. That's quite a project you got there. Mary is exquisite. Why it everyone elses corns look better than mine?

Kevin, incidentally...your charcoal baby is a grandson of Mary, just FYI. (That makes the pewter in the Corn Snake Manual his great grandfather....whee!) :) Just in case you wanted to know.

Hope he's doing well,
Hurley

[Kevin M]

Ahhhh! You'd figure I wouldve made that association with the info you provided me. I'll be sure to point out to my girlfriend that the charcoal she loves so much has a famous great grandfather. Time to bust out the manual and show her. :)

[RAP]

Serpwidgets. Those are some great looking snakes. Nice breeding program.