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new corn regurgitating

mdrews
12-30-2007, 10:24 AM
I just got my new baby normal corn home yesterday,and he regurgitated the pinky they had fed him on friday.i wouldn't be too concerned as my WC garter as done the same and been ok.but this guy is so little and to me is "neck" area seems very skiny!should i be concerned!?my garter was a young adult when i got him so i'm not used to dealing with babies.any advice or info is greatly appriceated...:confused:

Nanci
12-30-2007, 10:30 AM
He probably regurged because he was handled less than 48 hours after feeding. Unfortunately, when they regurge, they lose stomach flora and have to build it back up to be able to digest again. That means you should not feed or handle him for 8-10 days, and then feed him a meal half the size of the meal he regurged, (half a small pink, or a pinky head) and then gradually build him back up to a whole pink. After the initial first meal, I would feed him every five days. What temps do you have him at? Does he have a warm hide, with the temp measured directly on the glass above the under tank heater, of 80-85F? Please describe his set up. Baby corns have super-skinny necks- don't worry about that.

Nanci
12-30-2007, 10:38 AM
FAQ from Kathy Love on Regurgitation Treatment

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT - once a snake has regurged, especially twice or more, it is more likely to keep on regurging until it dies, unless something is changed about its care and feeding. It is very important NOT to let this continue. PLEASE FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW VERY CAREFULLY. This is from my FAQ on regurges:

I suspect your problem is probably not bad mice, but about handling too soon, feeding too soon or too large of a meal, a stomach "bug", or improper temps. If you make these mistakes once, or even twice, it is not usually a problem if you FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY. But remember, each time it regurges, the stomach acids are depleted, and the whole electrolyte balance is thrown off more and more each time, and it makes it MORE likely that it will continue to throw up until it dies. (those consequences are just my opinions - I do not know if science backs up my conclusions, but my experience certainly does!) That is why it is so important to NOT ALLOW another regurge.

The next month or two is crucial. DO NOT feed it for AT LEAST 8 days since the last regurge. NOT ANYTHING AT ALL! Then get a newborn frozen pinky and cut it in half (or cut off just the head) If she eats it, leave her alone for a whole week. (no handling). Repeat the partial pinkie feeding the following week. Then feed a whole newborn pinkie a week after that, if there has been no regurge. Leave alone for a whole week. If she regurges, wait a week and repeat 1/2 pinkie. If she keeps it down, wait a week and repeat whole pinkie. If she holds down a couple of meals, DO NOT rush back into larger meals and more handling. Treat this seriously. Go very slowly. After 3 successful meals, go to a newborn pink every 5 days. Go back to normal feedings only after 6 successful meals. Always wait to handle until after 3 or 4 days, but only AFTER 6 successful meals. No handling until then (causes stress, need to keep stress down). And NEVER feed again right after a regurge - ALWAYS wait AT LEAST 7 or 8 days, maybe even up to 10 days, and then only feed something that was about 1/2 the size (or less) of what she regurged..

Also, be sure that temps are not too warm or cool. Try to give an area of low to mid 80s on one side and 70s on the other. Too hot or cold will cause regurges.

Grapefruit seed extract can sometimes help if the snake has some sort of "stomach bug" (any microbial problem) as it is a natural remedy that is good against many kinds of pathogens, but not as strong as an antibiotic prescribed by a doctor. This product has been used in agriculture for many years and seems to be very safe, as long as you dilute it with enough water that the acidity does not burn the tissues. A vet has told me he feels that it may somewhat alter the pH of the animal and thus change the way medicines are absorbed. So if you use this product and then take the snake to a vet, mention the treatment so it can be taken into account if the vet decides to change the prescription because of it. It is best to mix it in a glass and taste it to make sure it is not so bitter that the snake refuses to drink it. I have used it on myself and so has my husband. I find it works better on stomach problems than for other symptoms (such as respiratory - I didn't have any luck treating colds or other respiratory problems).You can buy it at a local health food store or online. Please refer to the following website for more background info:
http://www.nutriteam.com/index2.html

I have also had success with a probiotic called Nutri Bac, a fine powder containing seven different microflora that should be inhabiting the gut of reptiles, but may be absent due to stress, disease, antibiotic treatments, etc. Using the powder as a supplement will sometimes allow the reptile to get back the natural balance of microbes in its digestive tract, and then its own immune system can take over. See my website for more details, or go here:
http://www.cornutopia.com/Corn%20Ut...information.htm

The number of days and amounts of food, etc, suggested above are not set in stone. Other people may have success with slightly different formulas, but this is what I found works for me and many of my customers. If this protocol does not work when carefully followed, it is likely that the snake has some severe problems. Your only hope is a QUALIFIED herp vet, who may or may not be able to save your pet.

Please follow my care sheet for the first month or so when starting with new acquisitions (posted on my website for the first month's care of new corns).. The first month is crucial in getting the baby established. It is worth a little extra "coddling" for the first month in order to have a trouble free pet for the next 10 or 15 years or more.

Good luck!
Kathy Love

CONTACT INFO:

CORNUTOPIA / Kathy Love
Captive-Bred Cornsnakes

WEB: http://www.CornUtopia.com
TEL: (239) 728 2390
Backup tel. # 239-691-4414 (Cell)
EMAIL: kathy@CornUtopia.com

mdrews
12-30-2007, 10:43 AM
Thanks for the fast reply!he's in a ten gallon tank with a zoo med UTH and about an inch of bedding.The temp. in the hot end reads 31C and there r a couple hides through out.he's been lying around the hot end of the tank ever since we got him home.I thought he'd be ok as the pinky seemed to have moved further down his body, then i recognized that regurdge "dance" and right in front of my eyes!!!!

mdrews
12-30-2007, 10:52 AM
Thank you for that care sheet.I will deffinatly try to follow it as best i can.I am also going to call the reptile shop i got him from, y would they feed him the day before he has to leave?i just hope i can fix this, he seems so fragile.

Nanci
12-30-2007, 10:57 AM
It'd be nice if you could drop his temp about 5F, or give him a couple more inches of aspen. He has hides in the warm and cool sides, right?

mdrews
12-30-2007, 11:04 AM
Yes he has hides at both ends but is lying right where the bedding is thinnest at the thermometer.i purchased a tank "kit" from the shop and the guy there told me that the UTH needed no regulating.They seem to be very knoledgable and only deal with reptiles, but that doesn't mean they can't be wrong!

Nanci
12-30-2007, 11:10 AM
Petstore employees are not always reliable in terms of the advice they give. Most of us use a thermostat or rheostat to regulate the temp of the UTH, but we recently had a thread where Don Soderberg, one of the largest corn breeders in the US, stated that he had never needed thermostats and relied on three-inch-deep aspen to allow the snakes to regulate, and has had success with many thousands of snakes, as have many of his loyal customers. Still- I've personally seen a US-manufactured UTH read at 130F, and I'm not comfortable with that.

mdrews
12-30-2007, 11:12 AM
I also have two 15w aqurium bulbs for lighting.Don't know if that matters.

mdrews
12-30-2007, 11:19 AM
thanks again. I'll do what ever i need to, to get this guy going. but i still think his neck is too thin. it's almost like his skin hangs off his spine there.the rest of him seems robust, almost tubular.man this little guys just got me worried!lol

Nanci
12-30-2007, 11:27 AM
Here's what my littlest one's neck looks like: (Jasmine weighs 9g- she has a pencil neck!)

mdrews
12-30-2007, 11:31 AM
close but i swear mine is skinnier!lol i'll post a pic when my wife uploads them onto the computer:)u'll know better then me;)

Nanci
12-30-2007, 11:36 AM
http://tinyurl.com/23tomd

http://tinyurl.com/2z8tfl

Ok- it's not skinnier than these guys, right?? I love their necks!

mdrews
12-30-2007, 11:46 AM
ok you got me...alost that skinny though...lol;)

mdrews
12-30-2007, 12:17 PM
Here r the best pics i could take without disturbing him too much...
with pinky
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/buggyboy80/bac55e86.jpg
without
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/buggyboy80/7155ee8a.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/buggyboy80/3bfcdf28.jpg

Nanci
12-30-2007, 12:22 PM
He looks fine to me! Luckily he has a good weight so should be fine for his 8 day fast...

mdrews
12-30-2007, 12:24 PM
awsome!Thank you sooo much. now the w8 begins...

Shorty6
12-30-2007, 01:35 PM
My little guy is on his fast too. Tomrrow is the day though!:crazy02:

Don't worry, my Ziggy looks even skinnier then that. He has not eaten in a long time. (The shop said he missed a feeding day) and that was about two weeks or so ago, maybe less. He is still active though, tounge flicking.



...I had a dream he was dying last night...it was very very sad.

mdrews
12-30-2007, 03:11 PM
GOOD LUCK!!!hope all goes well.i just worry for the young ones!!!my adult Garter has done this a couple of times and recovered with no worries..i've left him for 2 weeks before he took food!babies just seem more fragile to me:)

mdrews
12-30-2007, 08:00 PM
The temp on the warm side is 32-34C but i checked it beside the cool hide and it's 25-26C. does that sound reasonable?

mdrews
01-01-2008, 02:50 PM
Well Sunny was motoring all around last night from hide to hide, to water and even a little burrowing in the spagnum moss!Just one more question for when I do feed him.Once he takes the half pinkie down do I put him in his viv immediately or give him a couple minutes in his container?

Nanci
01-01-2008, 03:04 PM
As soon as you see it's in his stomach, 1/4-1/3 the way down (it stops moving and his neck looks normal instead of all bulgey) then it's ok to put him back. You can carry the feeding container to his viv and gently tip him in. Sometimes they stay in feeding mode for a few minutes- if so, he may ess up at you if you go to pick him up, but if he actually strikes, you won't even feel it.

mdrews
01-01-2008, 04:22 PM
Excellent, I can't wait for feeding day!