Vitamins and UVB lighting

[joelzstuff]

Some people give their snakes Vitamins, is this necessary? What are some Vitamins that you can buy at the pet store for your snakes? Also UVB lighting, do snakes really need this?

Thanks for your answers
Joel

[DutchGuy]

No, corns don't need any kind of special lighting. Just heat, shelter and food and drink.

I would not give any supplements. If you worry about nutrition make sure that your pinkies don't come from an overbred female mouse. Not that it makes a huge difference but it helps.

[Neil]

Corns don't need UVA/B lighting as they are primarily nocturnal. Some people use lighting for better viewing but this should be turned off at night to avoid stressing the animal.

Vitamin supplements usually aren't given to most species of snake (it's a lizard thing mostly) but some owners occasionally dust a food item with calcium powder. This is especially useful for gravid females as it helps with shell production.

[Rachel]

I used to dust pinkies with a vit supplement, mainly to make up for calcium which is not as abundant in pinkies as in older more developed mice. My mum, on the other hand, doesn't use and supp's and there is no difference between her snake and mine. He seems to be growing at the same rate, shed's well etc etc so basically there's no need really. Cept for gravid females, in which case I would use calcium/vit d supp's.

[CowBoyWay]

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6291&highlight=vitamins
...mere survival of an animal is quite different from optimum health for that animal....
"it is correct that sunlight, UVA or UVB aren't *required* for your corns.
But corns can benefit from many things that aren't required, but are still health promoting, just like humans and other animals can." ---Dr. Mike quote
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1238&highlight=vitamins

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5711&highlight=vitamins
:)

[pinatamonkey]

Originally posted by CowBoyWay
...mere survival of an animal is quite different from optimum health for that animal....
"it is correct that sunlight, UVA or UVB aren't *required* for your corns.
But corns can benefit from many things that aren't required, but are still health promoting, just like humans and other animals can." ---Dr. Mike quote


I think this is a bit misleading...I don't know of any data that shows UV light to have any effect at all on a snake's health or well-being.

[bmm]

I don't either. I am not saying I don't believe its true, but I would certainly enjoy seeing a study on that. I have always heard that some corns are stressed out by the presence of a UV light (or any other bright bright light) in their enclosure.

I would also love to see a study maybe, or a documentary with wild corn behaviour. I know they bask but is it for warmth and what does the UV provide if anything?

Another question I wonder about....if some do think vitamins are UV are needed, then does this mean previous years of corns are unhealthy? And if it doesn't, how much healthier can they be or should they be? Is it possible to just screw around too much them?

I have no clue! just rambling. LOL :D

bmm

[joelzstuff]

When I was working at a local pet store my boss told me that snakes are primarily nocturnal and would stress out if they had a UV light. He also told me that snakes do not need any type of Vitamins. When I found out about this site I read a lot of posts about how some people do provide these things for their snakes which is very confusing.

Right now:
My snake room hardly ever has the light on (its not a UV light)… when it does its because I’m feeding, cleaning or just checking up on them. I even covered up the windows so the sunlight wouldn’t come inside the room. My questions: So having them in almost total darkness isn’t bad for them right? I also have some females that I would like to breed soon. Dusting the mice/rats with vitamins will help their eggshell production? Is it a proven fact?

Thanks
Joel

[Neil]

Did your boss tell you that all snakes are nocturnal?

You should be fine with your lighting arrangments but breeding may be a bit 'hmmm'. OK, so not all corns have shown to need a natural photoperiod but it helps trigger biological changes. If you want to breed then I think you should uncover your window unless the vivs are subjected to strong, direct light. If this is the case then your could hook up the light to a timer. Of course, the ligthing of the room isn't essential to breeding but many people think it's a major part.

[CowBoyWay]

In the interest of furtherance of the conversation and this groups quest for knowledge...

Non-dependent on sunlight, UVA & UVB doesn't mean snakes can't benefit from some. . .

Corns have been observed to be *non-dependent* on full spectrum sunlight, UVA only or UVB only.

But the fact that they don't absolutely need these light wavelengths for survival does not mean that they might not benefit from a little exposure.

Some lizards and turtles can't even survive without these wavelengths, developing the equivalent diseases of rickets [juvenile] or osteomalacia [adults] without the Vitamin D3 produced by such exposure.
These animals don't get Vit D3 in their diet.

Snakes have not been observed to develop these outright Vit D3 deficiency states without this light because of their consumption of whole mice.

However, mere survival of an animal is quite different from optimum health for that animal.

Here's what we know about the action of sunlight and its component wavelengths on amphibians and upwards through the phylogenetic tree, all the way to humans [if you consider humans to be at the top, LOL]:


[1] UVA light catalyzes the conversion of precursor chemicals in the skin, starting with 7-dehydrocholesterol which UVA makes into "previtamin D3", and then into Vit D3, the biologically active form of Vit D.

Of course, if Vit D3 is in the diet in a whole organism like a mouse, deficiency without sunlight exposure is unlikely.
[ very important point ~CowBoyWay~ ]

[Doctors use prescription Vit D3 to treat certain metabolic and neoplastic diseases in humans when they are unable to make Vit D3 themselves.]

But. . .

[2] Visible light along with UVA and UVB inhibits the release of the hormone melatonin from the pineal gland. [Melatonin is sold over the counter as a sleep aid, and if you try it, get some low dose 2.5 mg sublingual tablets to start, as the normal swallowed form takes too long to work.]

The varying length of daylight throughout the year is one of the factors which synchronizes animal reproductive behavior to the seasons, through this pineal gland and melatonin.

Also, the dawn, day, dusk and night acting throughout a 24 hour period further synchronizes biorhythms, again through the pineal and melatonin.

[3] Through mechanisms in [2] and other as yet unknown mechanisms, sunlight can have profound effects on mood and behavior in ways more general than mating.

Ever hear of "Seasonal Affective Disorder" in humans,
otherwise known as the Wintertime Blues?
It can sometimes be treated by inhibiting excess melatonin release, by exposing humans to bright full spectrum lights at a certain time for a few hours a day.

Ever wonder why hibernation or brumation synchronizes to winter--the reasons involve BOTH temperature drops and dimmer sunlight for a shorter time each day.

[4] Also through [2], [3] and other as yet unknown mechanisms, visible light, UVA and UVB affect the production of growth hormone and other pituitary hormones, along with levels of thyroid hormone, cortisol and the sex hormones testosterone and estrogens [there are actually 3 different estrogens].

Essentially, all of these levels increase with sunlight, except for levels of cortisol which fall [unless there is a severe sunburn].

All of these hormones have *profound* effects on the physiology of all animals [endocrinology is the medical field that focuses on hormones and their effects, and is about 50% of my medical practice].

You may remember another post of mine that spoke of how physiological [bad temps, starvation] and psychological stress can elevate levels of cortisol, which can suppress an animals immune system leaving it susceptible to infections.

Because sunlight exposure in moderation can lower cortisol levels and raise levels of the other beneficial hormones, it can contribute mightily to overall health and well being.

And that's just the beginning of what we know!

Then there's what we don't know but suspect!

So even if Vitamin D3 is completely provided from diet and supplements, there are a lot of other effects from sunlight that can't be easily duplicated without it.

My vet and reptile ethologist friend and I have had many discussions about this.
Recognizing that snakes are nocturnal and tend to hide in the wild,


it's clear that they don't need a lot of sunlight for optimum health,

and in fact amelanistic or snow corns would be poorly adapted to a lot of sunlight [sort of like redhead or albino humans sunburning very easily].

But we do recommend holding your snakes in direct sunlight for about 5 to 10 minutes ONCE A WEEK, for optimum health.
Late afternoon in the summer because the sunlight is so strong, 1-2PM in the winter, and adjust in between [I live in Dallas, adjust accordingly by common sense at much higher or lower latitudes].

Be very cautious and limit time to 3-5 minutes for the first few times, and then slowly increase to a full 5 to 10 minutes--it's just like building up gradually when tanning.

ONCE A WEEK.

We also prefer having a tank exposed to natural sunlight in the day, even though the glass in the tank and windows will block nearly all UVA and UVB rays.

[ ...that doesn't mean in the heat wave zone of the penetrating, shining sun through the window, tanks tend to heat up very fast in direct sun "light"....
~ CowBoyWay~ ]

But the visible light and the timing of sunrise, day length and sunset will still do their magic.

If this can't be arranged because your snakes are in a windowless room, an adequate substitute can be had by using a plant grow light which is closer to full spectrum in wavelength components.

This can be operated on a timer adjusted periodically to sync with sunrise and sunset.

I know of one snake owner who has a remote photocell in a window to synchronize his lamps to actual sunrise and sunset, since his snakes are kept in his basement.

When I started doing all this, I noticed a dramatic increase in the physical activity and apparent "awareness" of my snakes within the first week.
This was not a scientifically controlled experiment, but I think it's a reasonable and safe conclusion to draw.

On X-rays the bony skeletons of my corns appear extremely dense compared to X-rays I've seen of other corns.

Recapping, it is correct that sunlight, UVA or UVB aren't *required* for your corns. But corns can benefit from many things that aren't required, but are still health promoting, just like humans and other animals can.

Get a tan AND get a life,
Doctor Mike
:)
imho by proxy
I will link any (university) studies I may find, (pro or con), to this thread as I discover/ find them.:)

[bmm]

The idea of holding them outside for a few minutes per week sounds FAR better to me than including UV lights on the enclosure. I take them out for pics already so...lol. :)

Nice article.

bmm

[Scorpionking]

I like the idea of going out for couple minutes every week, but my problem is I live in New England, the weather here, suckes even now, today for example is around 68, that is to cold right?

[kenalotia]

Wow, what a huge difference in weather! I'm also in New England (Worcester, Mass.) and it was 90° F and sunny here today.

But anyway, you do have a point. If you're living up north, it's too cold much of the year to bring your snakes outside. I wouldn't worry about it in the winter months, though, because corns would normally be brumating in that time. I guess I just wouldn't worry about it in the late spring and early fall; they'll be fine. When it's warm enough, it'd be a nice idea to take them outside. :)

[Rachel]

Joel, not that I'm a total expert on snakes circadian rhythms or anything but I don't personally see any benefit of depriving your snakes from natural photoperiod cycles. Especially if you are planning on breeding them.

I'm not having a dig, just that the little research that has been done on the effects of depriving animals from light patterns (and even false light patterns ie strip lighting in battrey farms) has proven to stress the animal out and mess with their natural biological rhythms. Just a thought ;)

[CowBoyWay]

The hormone cortisol is secreted by the adrenal glands in response to any kind
of physical or psychological stress..//

"The hormone cortisol, which is released in the body during stressed or agitated states, has gained widespread attention as the so-called "stress hormone."

But this hormone is more than a simple marker of stress levels- it is necessary for the functioning of almost every part of the body.
Excesses or deficiencies of this crucial hormone also lead to various physical symptoms and disease states."
http://stress.about.com/library/weekly/aa012901a.htm

"It is proposed that the primary purpose of the glucocorticoids, including cortisol (hydrocortisone), is to mobilize the body to resist infection."
(opening sentence of technical paper)...
http://members.tripod.com/
~charles_W/cortisol.html