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When an upper respitory infection is too severe to fix. :(

miara20
03-20-2008, 10:54 AM
Ok I have been reading this site trying to figure out what to do for my snake. She has an URI. She gets these every once in a while. I've always kept her tank between 80-85 degrees on the warm end and between 70-75 on the cool end. I went out of town for the week and had my mother watch her. She already had a slight cold before I left and had already been to the vet. While I was out of town my mother called me to tell me she was cold. so I told her what to do to warm her up. She had the heat off in my bedroom wich didnt help the situation cause it dropped down in the teens that week. anyway to make a long story short. I came home she had mucus comming out of her mouth and she wasnt hardly moving. So I rushed her to the animal hospital. Sure enough a URI. Now onto my questions.

They gave her batril shots. she's had 4 already. last one is today. But these dont seem to be working. I dont see as much of the mucus as I did but she is having a hard time breathing. Should I get more shots?

She is about ready to shed. Will this help her breathing after she sheds and if she doesnt have a whole lot of energy will she be able to shed?

I read somewhere on this site that if there is mucus in her mouth then it is hopeless and Im going to end up loosing my snake. Is this true? Is it too late to do anything about it?

I know a little about snakes but when it comes to this URI thing I thought by now that I would be an expert on this because she has had them in the past minus the mucus. So now this is all new for me and Im freaking out cause I've had her almost 2years since she was a baby. And she is my baby and I honestly dont want to loose her. I'll never leave her with my mother again thats for sure but what can I do to make her better if anything. I think Im going to take her back to the vet again.

miara20
03-20-2008, 03:51 PM
So the vet wont be in until monday. Every other place I've called they dont take reptiles. She is obviously having a hard time breathing and Im stress cause I dont know what to do for her can someone please give me some advice. Im so worry Im going to loose her Im about to loose my mind

diamondlil
03-20-2008, 03:57 PM
A normal healthy corn kept under good conditions shouldn't get multiple RIs. Has your vet given you any idea why your snake is prone to them?

miara20
03-20-2008, 04:20 PM
no she said that she doesnt see enough snakes to say if she is prone to them. When my husband bought her it was from this weird pet shop and all there animals looked sickly and he had brought her home and she of course was sick.

she's been sick like 3 times before this time but non of them were this bad. The second time she ever got sick it was my roommates fault because she opened the window and it was cold outside and forgot to close it. But she got better after antiabotics.

The last time she was sick it was because I was moving from WA to MO and it was cold outside so traveling in a car wasnt an ideal situation for her. I did keep the heat on in the car and used a heat pad that you heat up in the microwave and kept it under her tank but once again antiabotics cleared it up.

This time however she had a small cold and I took her to the vet. They said that with the weather change that she just had a cold and didnt give me anything for her. The vet said to raise the temps in her cage a little. Well i did that and she was mighty active but I went out of town for the week and left her in my mothers care. I have to use a portable heater for my room cause im in the basement and my mother turned it off thinking her lights and undertank heater would be enough and well it wasnt so she called me to say that sasha was cold and bunched up by the undertank heater wich I have it on the side of the tank not underneath. So I told her to turn the heat on in my room because that is why she is cold. When I got home she was sicker and had mucus comming out of her mouth. So I rushed her to the vets and they gave me shots. I took all the aspen out of her cage and replaced it with paper towels. I raised the temps to between 87 and 90 degrees on the warm side and 80 degrees on the cool side and the humidity is between 40- 45 and sometimes 50.

Im worried thou cause she is getting a tiny bit better but she just lays there and she is still having a hard time breathing. and she is getting ready to shed and I dont know if she has enough energy to shed herself and Im really worried cause the vet wont be in til monday. Both her nostrils are covered like they are stuffy but that could be from her getting ready to shed. I picked one open so she could breath a lil better.

So what do I do from here?

diamondlil
03-20-2008, 04:28 PM
Well, first off, if you had a proper temperature gradient, it would help a lot. With a heattmat controlled by thermostat under the tank or if your room really is that cold, a set up with two mats, set to high and low end temps respectively would be a good idea.
Keeping a corn under these conditions and exposing it to repeated illness isn't ideal at all when another mat and thermostat may be all that's needed. Your snake's health and perhaps its life is being put at risk by the heating issues. TYhe antibiotics won't help in the long term if the husbandry issues aren't addressed too.

miara20
03-20-2008, 04:56 PM
I have a large heat mat on one end and I just bought another one but I do have 4 thermometers in her cage. and one humidity gauge in there. I do try and keep her cage the right temps I have the heat on in my room constantly. The only time the heat has ever been off in my room is when I went out of town for a week and my mother turned it off and forgot to turn it on. The temps outside drop into the teens. This is why she is so sick now. I dont plan on going out of town again for awhile. I understand the mistakes I've made and i know that antiabotics wont help long term.

But my issue is now how do I make her get better or at least survive until monday when the vet will be able to see her And will she be able to shed on her own being that she really dont wanna move a whole lot. Her current temps in her cage right now is 90.7F on the warm side and 82F on the cool side. I would have it between 80-85 but the vet told me to up her tems and her humidity is 42.

Sasha is my baby and I'v always taken care of her the right way. I couldnt help that my roommate at the time was a moron and it was her house so I really couldnt say anything and I couldnt help she was sick when I got her. And I honestly couldnt help having to move from Washington State to Missouri cause my husband was getting deployed and I didnt know the heat was going to get shut off in my room. I do honestly take good care of her. But right now I dont want to loose her.

snakewispera snr
03-20-2008, 05:08 PM
I'll get Joel to tell you what we been researching... No flaming please....

miara20
03-20-2008, 05:10 PM
I'll get Joel to tell you what we been researching... No flaming please....

Thank you so much and promise no flaming

SNAKEWISPERA
03-20-2008, 05:20 PM
Hi All,

I just thought I'd make a post with regards to a method for tackling RI's that a lot of keepers don't know about or at least haven't tried before.

I heard about this treatment just over a year ago from Bob Simpson (Welcome to SitonaStickSnake.com). Basically it involves administering F10 vetinary disinfectant via a nebulizer. The idea is that you vapourise a diluted solution of the F10 into the viv (or treatment tub) so that the snake inhails the F10 and takes it right down into the lungs where it can "do its thing".

I want to stress that I'm not suggesting you rely solely on this and don't bother with other medication but it is a useful bit of kit to have on standby if you want to try and nip these things in the bud.

Here's a few links for you;

http://www.f10biocare.co.uk

Evergreen Nebulizers Direct - Budget Categories Page

Here's an article for you (towards the bottom of the page);

Untitled Document


cheers
joel

SNAKEWISPERA
03-20-2008, 05:24 PM
http://www.healthandhygiene.net/news.php

http://www.evergreen-nebulizers.co.uk/categories/budget.html

SNAKEWISPERA
03-20-2008, 05:26 PM
Use 5ml of F10 diluted in 500ml of filtered water, 15 -20 mins a day, twice a day :D

SNAKEWISPERA
03-20-2008, 05:27 PM
How old is the snake.

snakewispera snr
03-20-2008, 05:28 PM
I've been following your thread all day, and as no other treatment has been suggested I thought you might want to know about this......I cannot condone or recommend this treatment as we are brand new to it, and our research is still, well new.....We read about it on another forum, and decided to look into it further...As we haven't had a sick snake yet , we have had no reason to try it.....

miara20
03-20-2008, 05:32 PM
How old is the snake.

she will be 2 years old next month.

And thanks for the advice.

if she is still hardly wanting to move can she still shed on her own. She is about to shed and Im afraid she wont want too and that worries me.

diamondlil
03-20-2008, 08:05 PM
I'm so sorry that other people have caused harm to your snake, and hope she makes a speedy recovery.

miara20
03-20-2008, 09:27 PM
thank you. She is doing better this evening. I dont see the mucus comming out of her mouth anymore. And she isnt open mouth breathing wich I hope is a good sign. I gave her the last shot just a few moments ago. And Im going to try and get her into a vet tommaro. Around here there arent hardly any reptile vets and the one she goes to wont be in til monday. The other one I cant get to cause the roads are flooded. But there are a few more. I have to drive a pretty long distance about a 40 minute drive but if it means she will get better than I dont have a choice. I just hope I dont have to go through this again. Thanks to every one for your help.

Chris Olson
03-23-2008, 08:31 AM
thank you. She is doing better this evening. I dont see the mucus comming out of her mouth anymore. And she isnt open mouth breathing wich I hope is a good sign. I gave her the last shot just a few moments ago. And Im going to try and get her into a vet tommaro. Around here there arent hardly any reptile vets and the one she goes to wont be in til monday. The other one I cant get to cause the roads are flooded. But there are a few more. I have to drive a pretty long distance about a 40 minute drive but if it means she will get better than I dont have a choice. I just hope I dont have to go through this again. Thanks to every one for your help.

If your Corn gets another RI, or if this one persists, suggest to your Vet another drug. Amikacin. Most RI's are not caused by temperature issues. Most are the result of unsanitary conditions. I'm not saying that you are providing poor husbandry, but it sounds like the pet store you purchased him from was. Many bacteria that cause RI's are resistant, or at least somewhat resistant to Baytril. If a bacteria is treated with an antibiotic that it is somewhat resistant to, it will not kill all of the bacteria, and the ones that remain can become even more resistant. Fewer bacteria are resistant to Amikacin.

Dosing Amikacin: 2.5-5mg per kg of of snake, every 72 hours. 3-5 treatments. Your Vet can calculate the doses and measure them out for you, but basically
1 mg = 0.001 grams, 1 kg = 1,000 grams....so if your snake weighs 300 grams, the dose is .015ml (cc) every 3 days.

Chris

MegF.
03-23-2008, 08:45 AM
The F10 nebulizer is supposed to work quite well on RI's in chondros. Many forum members on my chondro site use it a lot. I am concerned that your snake seems to continually get RI's though. I would suggest getting a tracheal swab to find out exactly what type of bacteria you are dealing with. I would also suggest you thoroughly disinfect your cage as perhaps you are harboring bacteria there that an immune compromised snake is getting exposed to. Cornsnakes are normally quite hardy and RI's do not happen very often. Even with temperature drops they should be fine. Especially with the car ride. I took my snakes all the way across the country. They did fine without any supplememental heat in hotels and had whatever we had in the trucks. It points to more of a stress related push into illness. You need to find an experienced reptile vet (even if you have to make an appointment with one well out of your area) to have this animal evaluated. I believe amikacin is hard on the kidneys and should always be followed with a subcutaneous injection of ringers or some other fluid to help with that. The animal should not be fed during treatment either.

Chris Olson
03-23-2008, 08:56 AM
. I believe amikacin is hard on the kidneys and should always be followed with a subcutaneous injection of ringers or some other fluid to help with that. The animal should not be fed during treatment either.

That is true, although usually in animals that already have kidney problems or are dehydrated. I agree that the animal should have lab work done to determine the actual bacteria causing the problem. Unfortunately, most Vets just throw Baytril at every sick snake they see.

Chris

miara20
03-23-2008, 09:29 AM
If your Corn gets another RI, or if this one persists, suggest to your Vet another drug. Amikacin. Most RI's are not caused by temperature issues. Most are the result of unsanitary conditions. I'm not saying that you are providing poor husbandry, but it sounds like the pet store you purchased him from was. Many bacteria that cause RI's are resistant, or at least somewhat resistant to Baytril. If a bacteria is treated with an antibiotic that it is somewhat resistant to, it will not kill all of the bacteria, and the ones that remain can become even more resistant. Fewer bacteria are resistant to Amikacin.

Dosing Amikacin: 2.5-5mg per kg of of snake, every 72 hours. 3-5 treatments. Your Vet can calculate the doses and measure them out for you, but basically
1 mg = 0.001 grams, 1 kg = 1,000 grams....so if your snake weighs 300 grams, the dose is .015ml (cc) every 3 days.

Chris


I finally got her in to a good vet and he gave her a shot of the amikacin. I have to take her back on monday for another one. He also removed the extra skin and boogers from her nose and found her nasal passages swollen. So he gave me nose drops with antiabotic and steroids in them for her nose I have to put them in twice a day. And he said to soak her in a warm bath every day and make sure she gets plenty of fluids. I will definetly wait to feed her until after her treatments. She finally sheded on her own last night but was struggling and its all in peieces. When i go in on monday I will sugest a throat swab to find out whats going on. I do keep her cage really clean. I am a clean freak however I do not use bleach on her cage I use atibacterial soap and wipe out. But I think I am going to start using bleach cause bleach kills everything but will it make her sick?

she's had RI's since I first got her. My husband bought her from this place called the B and I in WA and all the animals looked sickly in there. and of course she was sick. the batryl seemed to work the first couple times she got sick. But now it really didnt do much and the vet I was taking her doesnt know a whole lot about snakes. This one I took her to on friday has seen alot alot of snakes and I feel confident he knows what he is doing. He is the one that gave her the amikacin. She is doing much better already. No more mucus in her mouth althou it still is really red. and her nasal passages are looking better.

Thanks to everybody for your help and your suggestions. I will definelty keep you posted on her outcome. And I will definetly talked to the doctor about the trachea swab. Thank you all.

Chris Olson
03-23-2008, 09:51 AM
I'm glad you found a good vet:). If you decide to use bleach, make sure it is very diluted, 1 cap full/gallon of water. You will also need to make sure you rinse the enclosure well, and make sure there are no bleach fumes remaining. I might make another suggestion, however. Virosan (http://www.proexotics.com/store/product.php?productid=16190&cat=249&page=1). It's an anti-bacterial/anti-viral solution that will not harm your pets, even if it is ingested (still not recommended). It's pretty inexpensive, and a little will go a long way. Good luck!

Chris

miara20
03-23-2008, 04:29 PM
I'm glad you found a good vet:). If you decide to use bleach, make sure it is very diluted, 1 cap full/gallon of water. You will also need to make sure you rinse the enclosure well, and make sure there are no bleach fumes remaining. I might make another suggestion, however. Virosan (http://www.proexotics.com/store/product.php?productid=16190&cat=249&page=1). It's an anti-bacterial/anti-viral solution that will not harm your pets, even if it is ingested (still not recommended). It's pretty inexpensive, and a little will go a long way. Good luck!

Chris


Thank you so much I will give that a try anything to keep her from getting sick again. I dont wanna end up loosing my little girl. She is like a child to me. Well thank you again. I'll keep everyone updated.
mia

Morph Collector
03-23-2008, 10:30 PM
I am not sure if this will help but in the slight case that it does:

My kids got sick (humans) and for the first time in my life I heard the word Nebulizer. We tried it (believe me it was not easy holding a mask anywhere near a 18 mos old, a snake would be easier). Their RI was really bad, and the first time we used the Nebulizer our kids could breathe again. It was amazing and I hope to see the same effects in other animals. I kept the nebulizer, and if I have any problems herp related I will post results if any in a later thread. I would at least try the Neb, unless anyone has documentation of ill effects (since good effects in chondros, might be worth a shot).

snakewispera snr
03-24-2008, 03:39 AM
We've looked into the nebulizer a bit more....The F10 will kill all bacteria, virus.etc. You will need to put anti-biotics in with it to help any infections..

MegF.
03-24-2008, 04:08 AM
Usually with snakes, the nebulizer is used in the tub or cage. Since arboreals are kept in high humidity, their cages are ideal for keeping in something like that. A cornsnake would be a little different as they don't require as much humidity and their cages are usually open air types. I'm not sure how you would handle that. Too much humidity is also bad, especially when the species is not designed for it. Chondros have completely different lung tissue-it's much more thin than a cornsnakes- and require high humidity in order to KEEP from getting RI's. It's the opposite for cornsnakes.

Cat_Eyed_Lady
03-24-2008, 04:26 AM
Wow! this is the first I have read this thread and I have to say I am so sorry your snake keeps having these problems. As for the nebulizer... I personally have to use one for myself (super bad asthma) and if it working for a snake? How wonderful that would be! Especially if it worked like it does for me :)

As for cleaning... you can use a 1 part bleach to 10 parts water solution but as mentioned Rinse Super great! its very strong for them. What I actually prefer for cleaning for all my animals, birds included and they are even more sensitive to smells than snakes.... is Nolvasan. You can buy it in the farming department in most places that have farmers for clients. Its kinda pricey but a Tiny bit goes a very long way! It doesnt smell as strong as bleach and cleans just as well, if not better :)

I am glad you finally found a good reptile vet. They are very hard to come by in most places. I wish you all the best of luck in getting her well and keeping her that way :)

diamondlil
03-24-2008, 04:33 AM
I had a rescue cat who had lung damage from chronic cat 'flu, so he was prone to RIs. I used to sit with him in a hot steamy bathroom to ease his symptoms in winter. Perhaps a saline nebuliser going into a ventilated tub would work for a snake?

miara20
03-24-2008, 10:39 AM
Thank you all for your help. I have a vet appointment this morning for her last shot. I will see about getting a nebulizer. She is doing much better. A little mad at me cause I been putting nose drops in her nose and she just shedded saturday night but I cant feed her till after the treatments. She always gets fed right after she sheds so she isnt very happy with me. But she isnt sneezing and coughing as much and I dont see any mucus in her mouth and her nose is starting to look great. I will continue to keep you posted Thanks again

Morph Collector
03-24-2008, 04:48 PM
Usually with snakes, the nebulizer is used in the tub or cage. Since arboreals are kept in high humidity, their cages are ideal for keeping in something like that. A cornsnake would be a little different as they don't require as much humidity and their cages are usually open air types. I'm not sure how you would handle that. Too much humidity is also bad, especially when the species is not designed for it. Chondros have completely different lung tissue-it's much more thin than a cornsnakes- and require high humidity in order to KEEP from getting RI's. It's the opposite for cornsnakes.
What I have pictured in my head is the face mask sitting on the stop of the cage. What comes out is similar to a fog, and will quickly envelope the bottom of the cage, and maybe more. If that works the snake would look to be harmed, as my kids did lol but it would be helping. I think you'd have to find a way to "clear the fog" at the recommended times though, because I think mine were like 8 minute doses or something.

miara20
03-25-2008, 12:53 PM
sasha is doing much much better. I took her yesterday for what was suppose to be her last shot. She usually gets two but the vet said to go ahead and give her one and see how she does. She did wonderful. She looks and acts like she is feeling better. The vet called this morning and he wants to give her one more shot as a precautionary and do a check up. I've never had a vet call like that to check on her. They also think that it is the aspen that is causing her to be sick like that. They think she might have an allergy to the aspen. I have her on paper towels right now. Comes to think of it the last few times she has been sick I've had her eiether on aspen or repti bark. Which the repti bark I stopped using but anyway when I first got her and she was sick they had her on repti- bark as well. The vet said he didnt want to do a trachea swab unless she turns around and gets sick again. But he does want to check her for parisites. But all in all she is getting so much better and Im happy that she is almost back to her normal nosey self. Thanks to everyone for your help. I really appreciate it. Thats why I come on this site because there is alot of experience and kind people who I can talk to . Thanks again Ya'll.
mia

miara20
03-25-2008, 12:55 PM
sorry i just read my post and it completly does not make sense. He told me to feed her and she usually gets two mice. but I gave her one. lol. Not two shots. Im so sorry. completly a typo.