Slapped by a dose of reality. Please read!

[CAV]

I recently acquired an '02 corn that started having feeding problems from day one. After eating on Monday, he immediately regurged. This was only his second feeding with me, and it was the second regurge. I got him into the vet teaching hospital at Texas A & M this morning to get checked out. The report is not good. Suspected cause: cryptosporidium.

I have been instructed to collect the regurge from this next feeding in order to confirm or deny the diagnosis. As you might expect, I am holding my breath. I hope that the test will confirm that it is only a simple parasitic infection and not crypto. With that said, if it is confirmed to be crypto, I will not hesitate for a second to destroy the animal in order to save the rest of my collection. My fingers are crossed that this is an isolated infection and I have caught it early before it spreads to other individuals.

Anyway, I thought that this would be a good time to do a little preaching. So here goes:

1. Although I take numerous precautions with sanitation, isolation and individual housing arrangements are critical! For those of you that insist on keeping multiple animals in the same enclosure, take note: If not for the precautionary practices that I have in place, I would be sitting here typing, knowing that I will likely lose thousands of dollars worth of snakes. I still may.

2. Don't assume away risk when buying an animal from anyone. Know who you are dealing with. Even if you trust them, take precautions like a quarantine to protect yourself. There is no doubt in my mind that this animal was sick when it arrived a few weeks ago. It was isolated, never fed successfully and so far is the only one with symptoms.

3. Educate yourself on your critters. Learn to recognize the warning signs of trouble. Get to a vet ASAP to ensure that you and your pet are not in danger. Had I let this go for a couple of more weeks, this vicious little parasite would have spread like crazy. It is extremely contagious

4. Find a good vet that knows reptiles. I am fortunate to live close to one of the finest veterinary schools in the country. Their quick diagnosis may prove to be critical in saving my collection.

5. Sanitation, sanitation, sanitation. This may prove to be the only thing that saves my collection. Always sanitize your hands tubs, bowls and instruments between feedings and handlings, especially if you have multiple corns.

6. FWIW, the vet professor took the time to educate me a little on crypto. Chlorine, iodine, and sodium based sanitizing agents have all proven to be ineffective again cryptosporidium in lab tests. Ammonia is one of the few proven winners.

I know this is long, but I thought it was important enough to share. :(

[bc_reptiles]

I have my fingers crossed for you. Good luck with the upcoming test results.

People just seem to get really comfortable thinking that they got their snakes from a reputable breeder and they don't have to quarantine. Your story just goes to show you!

Let us know how the test results come out.

Brian Miller

PS - Have you notified the breeder so that he can have his collection checked out? Hopefully he cares!

[Alicia]

Thank you for sharing your experience. So many times you hear things like "it won't happen to my animals" or "I only buy from people I know". I hope people read your post and take it heart. Everything you wrote is so important and needs to be followed.

I hope that everything turns out alright. Keep us updated.

[CAV]

I will of course keep the forum informed. Without sounding like a Pollyanna, I'm still holding out for a positive report. Reckon I'll wait a few days before hitting the panic button.

Silver lining? This is one of those events that keeps you on you toes as a collector! Even when you're doing everything right, something can still go wrong.

DON'T CUT CORNERS! :)

[Anel & Dirk]

I'd cry my lungs out if my snake is to get sick, so now I have to ask...

I'm wanting to buy a new corn next week, are there any signs I can check out before giving over my money?

Just to spare the trouble of all the worries your going through?

Good Luck and all the best!

Hope it's not termenal and if it is my heart definately goes out to you!

[surfrkidTS]

If this is private information, don't worry about it, but who did you but the snake from? And about breeders, buying from someone you know isn't always a way to get a good snake (Don't worry, I ain't talking about any of the breeders here). Keep them entirely seperate and wait a few feedings. Chances are with you that they are healthy if they eat 5 meals with out problems. Also look at Kathy's book to check out other ways to inspect your snake before or after buying to help work out problems. A feces inspection is the only sure way, but if you don't have a good reptile vet, or (like me) can't even find one closeby, at least look for the signs in Kathy's book. I'm not trying to freak anyone out, but... reputable breeders are less likely to have sick snakes. You still might get a diseased one, but it is less likely than buying one from a smaller breeder.

[Chip]

Best to Email CAV for that information, IMHO. No need to slander a reputation if the seller is doing right by him and taking care of the issues within his own collection. This type of thing could happen to anyone, and it's tragic enough for any breeder without having "crypto" attached to his business.

[WingedWolf]

Besides, the origin of the corn wasn't stated--it could have been a pet store, even, in which case the crypto could have been picked up from a dirty cage, rather than occurring at the breeder's. She said it arrived, which implies it was shipped...but it might have been shipped from a wholesaler or other intermediate person, rather than direct from a breeder.

[surfrkidTS]

I was worried that would spark defense. I didn't mean it like that. forget I ever said anything;)

[Aradia]

Cav,
I just wanted to know how your snake was?

[CAV]

I waited an extra day to feed. The samples should be ready for the vet this afternoon. I have to wait on a regurge, collect the sample and have it analyzed.

I have a total of three animals in isolation at another location. One is the known problem, another was shipped at the same time from the same breeder (currently showing no symptoms), and the third is an unrelated snake that regurged its last meal.

So far, no other problems. I have moved the rest of my collection and have sterilized everything. I used an ammonia solution, followed by moist heat (fancy vet recommendation that is nothing more than a dishwasher cycle ;) ). This should kill any suspected crypto bacteria.

I will post the prognosis once I have it. I am holding off on releasing any further info until I have confirmation. The last thing I want to do is start an unfounded rumor that could potentially sink an innocent individual. This could still prove to be nothing more than a simple bacterial infection that is easily treated.

[Chigy]

man hearing all this wants me to seperate my snakes, but they like each other to much they grew up together with no probs what so ever never a feeding when one was not hungry or and regurg from any of the 2 , but i dont want anythign to happen to them...they are about a year old and doing great...im goign to take them to a vet to get a check up... thanks everyone



Just herping it up


Ps. does anyone know where to get good Black Emp. scorpions i dont just do herps.....

[shane.N]

Please tell us what has happenned to youre snake

[Chigy]

Man that would suck if anything happens to your snakes like me i know u must luv your snakes like most herpers do...... so i think i might split mine up before anything happens...just wnted to know if a divider would be good or should it been different tanks....let me know what happens to your snakes ......

thanks Chigy


also does anyone own a tegu black and white argentine....want to get one......

[Darin Chappell]

New acquisitions should be kept completely apart from "safe" collections for a period of several (most suggest six) months as a quarantine practice. In a separate room is good, but is a separate building is even better. Lots of hand washing and sterilizing is needed when working in both areas, and no sharing of any utensils without serious sterilization!

Let's face facts, folks. There are some nasty little bugs out there, and you simply cannot afford to bring them into your collections!

[Chigy]

they are not for breeding purposes but just as pets AKA hobbyist.....but it doesnt matter i like them the same...there is just 2 i dont have a collection yet,...they been together ever since i got them and nuthing went wrong, but things happen u know :eek:

[CAV]

Let's break the situation down:

1. I have a total of three corns quarantined at a separate location (not in the same house). One has been examined by a Vet Professor and the other two are precautionary, but showing no signs of illness (see above posts).

2. I fed all three on Tuesday Morning and have been waiting on a regurge in order to collect a sample for analysis. After almost a week, NO REGURGES :confused: The one animal had regurged three consecutive meals prior to this.

3. I have sterilized everything that is in contact with any of the snakes in my collection and have changed from wood-based substrates to paper products.

Long story short, I have no idea what is going on. Although I am more optimistic for the future, I am really no better off since I can't confirm or deny the presence of an undesirable microbial infection.

I'm open for suggestions or opinions if anyone would like to offer one. :eek:

[Darin Chappell]

Well, if it helps, I don't believe animals start eating again, if they begin suffering from Crypto-induced regurges. So, that is definitely a good sign! Of course, I don't have any personal experience with the illness, but I think it looks more hopeful than not for you there!

[carol]

Was this latest meal the same size as the meals it had before, or what it smaller than the ones it regurged? Just wondering. I wish you the best of luck.

[CAV]

Carol,

All meal sizes were the same size and quantity as before. The problem child has been regurging pinkies all along, but he is over 23" an shouldn't be having a problem with food items that are that small.

I am planning on calling the vet tomorrow and asking for guidance, cause I'm clueless at this point.

[rachel132002]

Awwwwwwwwwwwwww that's really sad, but what EXACTLY is crypto??? and *soft* don't use 'destroy' for puttin animals to sleep it sounds really cold or maybe i'm just overly-emotional towards animals *shrugs*:(


Rach:(

[Chip]

I've never encountered crypto, but have researched up on it quite a bit, and as Darin said, it looks likely you'll find another diagnosis. :) For what it's worth, I mentioned and showed this thread to a friend who is good pals with Dick Bartlett (who actually lived in my neighborhood and I never knew it!:eek: ) and his advice was "unless they are healthy as horses, brumate them!" While Dick teased him for brumating breeder corns to begin with, he had great results (compared with nursing them along) brumating unknown caused non-feeders, regurgers, <even some at a less than healthy weight to put down>, and even had a thermostat put on a 'fridge for that purpose.
Not suggesting this out of experience, just food for thought. I lost 4 of 5 problem regurgers I bought late last season and wish I had tried. :(
Best wishes and keep us informed.

[CAV]

I have now had two straight weeks without a single problem. This means that Crypto is officially out of the picture as the cause. Even the vet is stumped.

I'M RELIEVED TO SAY THE LEAST!

Probably will never know the true cause. Without the cause, lessons learned and corrective actions are much harder to come-by.

I did implement the following changes to my husbandry practices:
1. Increased quarantine time - A minimum of 3 month

2. "Enhanced" sterilization - Bleach and Iodine based agents will not kill all of the little nasties out there

3. Paper v. wood substrate - I am testing paper (jury is still out)

I still standby the statement "don't blindly trust anyone". There are many great folks keeping reptiles, and some shady characters looking for a quick sale. Treat each with caution when bringing new specimens into your collection.

I appreciate everyone’s kindness, support and interest during this wild roller coaster ride.

[Aradia]

You mentioned "Enhanced Sterlization". I'm still in the "newbie" stage, so if bleach based dont do it, what will?

[CAV]

The vet gave me a copy of an article regarding treatment and eradication of crypto. According to this article, standard sterilization methods do not kill crypto. Survival rates continue, even at low temperatures, for months.

The only methods clinically proven to in fact kill crypto are ammonia and moist heat (~80c). I will get the article and post specific details next week.

[carol]

Looking back, it just sounds like a bad case of stress. I really didn't mention it at first because if your vet was suspecting crypto I would have assumed he saw more signs of it than just the regurges. (Swollen stomach, abnormal feces). Hopefully, it was just that your little one was stressed out and is just getting used to it's new home.

[CAV]

Carol,

That was my first thought as well, and one of the reasons I didn't start to worry until the third meal was instantly regurged upon consumption.

When the vet conducted the examination, he palpated the snake twice. The first time, he thought there might be a hard lump, but couldn't confirm it on the second pass. He did state at the time that it was impossible to confirm crypto without a biological sample to swab. From his stand point (which I agree with) he was obligated to give me the "worst case scenario" so that I could take the necessary steps to protect the other animals in the collection.

Because I could not confirm the diagnosis, I didn't feel it was right for me to release the breeder's name or jumping on the BOI and raising a stink. Hindsight being 20/20, that was a very wise decision. ;)

[carol]

I agree it was very wise to take the sanitary precautions and to wait before mentioning the breeder. There are just so many unsensible people out there. I hope the worst is over for your little one. Your nerves must be shot by now!

[CAV]

In case anyone hasn't seen it, there is a great article in the August issue of "Reptile" magazine regarding sanitation. It discusses the importance of quarantines, sanitation and other preventative measures to ensure the safety of a collection.