Morphin' Distinction

[Bloodred Dad!]

[F]I guess you should know that psychology is important to me and something that arouses my curiosity. I was wondering if anyone (especially those with multiple morphs) have realized any personality differences by morph. Someone mentioned an example of different personalities for different dog breeds on another thread, but I wonder if snakes are as complex. Do you think personality is influenced by morph or is it all environment or is each individual snake is truly an individual snake?

I think it poses an interesting question. It's commonly known that Bloodred offspring are usually difficult to feed. It's commonly known that young Okeetees are more timid than other corns. It seems that these genes influence more than just pattern, but does it run down as far as the way a snake acts?

Has anyone, in particular, say had a particular morph that seemed to act a certian way no matter who owned it? Or a more aggressive or more active morph? I'm curious to find out what your experience tells you...[/FONT]

[bitsy]

It's commonly known that Bloodred offspring are usually difficult to feed.

I'd say that was true 10 years ago, but not any more now the bloodlines have been beefed up.

It's commonly known that young Okeetees are more timid than other corns.

Is it? Never heard that before.


I think genetics plays a large part in morph "characteristics" when they first emerge, as new morphs are usually derived from a limited gene pool. Howver as generations progress, bloodlines become more diverse and undesirable traits are gradually bred out.

[KJUN]

> Do you think personality is influenced by (A) morph or is it all (B) environment or is each (C) individual snake is truly an individual snake?

I believe, from above, that C is the most important and A is the least important. You left out D - genetics. That, I believe has the most importance in most cases, but can be overshadowed occasionally by C. B can be the most important if the snake is treated very, very poorly, but I'd sayt that was too rare to count.

> I think it poses an interesting question. It's commonly known that Bloodred offspring are usually difficult to feed.

This is genetics - and not personality. It isn't their personality to want lizards any more than it is yours to be unable to digest cellulose. Besides, that was due to the founding source for bloodreds and not the morph itself. NOW, lots of bloodreds eat well out of the egg. In other words, this was due to D.

> It's commonly known that young Okeetees are more timid than other corns.

When people personify, it is hard to argue with them. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "timid" in a snake, but my Okeetee hatchlings have never been anything I would call timid. FAR from it. Good feeders that aren't scared of nothing. That goes for all of the line I have worked with for many, many years. Sounds like someone had ONE timid snake and started this rumor based on an individiual - which would be C. :)

> It seems that these genes influence more than just pattern, but does it run down as far as the way a snake acts?

No doubt amout it. Aggressive lines produce aggressive snakes. Duh. Any breeder with any experience can tell you that....lol.

> Has anyone, in particular, say had a particular morph that seemed to act a certian way no matter who owned it? Or a more aggressive or more active morph? I'm curious to find out what your experience tells you...

The only thing that comes to mind as acting REALLY different are sunkissed corns. They are mean as hell. Now, lots of mutations SEEM more docile than lots of F1 "normals." This just from selective breeding, I believe. If you have 10 babies that all eat well. If they look pretty much the same. Are you going to keep the 8 that attack you every time you open the cage, or will you keep the pair that are docile? Do that a few generations, and docility - as long as they feed - are traits selected for in captivity.

KJ

[wade]

I can't back this up with lots of data, but I have always felt that lavenders are sickly or less hardy.

I have 4 striped ghosts that are much more aggressive feeders than any of my other corns. They strike the prey hard and constrict with several loops. I love to feed them. Is that genetic? I don't know.

[kimbyra]

Good Post KJ! I second that.

Like people, its a combination of things, some influenceing more than others. I have heard that ambers are very sweet, then I got one. She is now someone elses pet. She was evil - but just to me. She was fine with everyone else, but sought me out for destruction. Seriously. I still wouldn't label her as "sweet" though.

[bitsy]

I have always felt that lavenders are sickly or less hardy.

Could that be because they're fairly new on the scene and just starting to be "outcrossed" with other morph combos? Laves must be where Bloodreds were ten years ago - just starting to become widely available. It'll be interesting to see where we end up with them in another ten years.

As for snake "psychology", I don't believe they have one in the human sense. They work on instincts:
- Am I safe?
- Am I the right temperature?
- Am I hungry?
- Am I thirsty?
- Do I have something to mate with?

[Bloodred Dad!]

That makes so much sense. My Bloodred is a great eater so it makes even more sense that it's because the bloodlines evolve over time. I was just curious because I wasn't really sure and wanted to get someone more experienced imput.

[Nanci]

I would buy a lavender female who is het for bloodred.

For your first generation you would get half bloodreds, and half normals het for lavender and bloodred.

Then you could either breed the resulting bloodred het lavender babies and get:

3/4 Bloodred (66% poss. het. Lavender)
1/4 Bloodred, Lavender

or breed the normal babies and get:

9/16 Normal(66% poss. het. Bloodred, 66% poss. het. Lavender)
3/16 Bloodred (66% poss. het. Lavender)
3/16 Lavender (66% poss. het. Bloodred)
1/16 Bloodred, Lavender

Or both!

[Caryl]

The OP poses an interesting question. I agree with KJUN that genetics must be considered, but the topic thus far doesn't go far enough. Yes, of course, pattern and color (morph) are essentially determined genetically. There are likely other undetermined environmental influences, such as nutrient availability or developmental temperatures, that affect the phenotype in ways we don't see or understand.

The reproductive choices of captive-bred animals are made by their human keepers. Sometimes we breed for color, sometimes for size, sometimes for vitality, sometimes for docility, sometimes for something else. Offspring demonstrate or carry a variety of visible traits, as well as traits invisible to us that still affect behavior, immune resistance, and other things.

I don't know how many corn snakes there currently are in captivity, but I'm willing to bet that they all share significant genetic similarities. I know, there are still wild-caught specimens being introduced into the breeding population who bring new genetic diversity. Producing recessive morphs initially requires breeding closely related animals who share the genes for the desired trait. They also share genes for other traits, some of which are invisible, some of which are undesirable. As stated previously, that's why some less-desirable traits in "new" morphs improve once there are more breeding animals available.

The original question seems to me to consider morphs on the same level of differentiation as dog breeds. I'm new to corn snakes, but I'm not new to genetics. That can't possibly be the case. Many lines/types/breeds of dogs have been selectively bred for hundreds or thousands of years. Those countless generations have permitted humans to refine desired traits and to differentiate types far more than has been possible in the relatively short time involved in breeding herps. Conscientious breeders of any animal try to eliminate problems and promulgate desired traits.

So, yes, there are behavioral differences. I'd love to see some scholarly data on behavior in various lines. Does anybody know if such studies exist?

[bitsy]

So, yes, there are behavioral differences.

What are those in Corns, in your view?

[Nanci]

Weird- I must have meant to post that somewhere else. In case anyone thought I was going crazy.

[wade]

Weird- I must have meant to post that somewhere else. In case anyone thought I was going crazy.

No, we just excepted it a one of Nanci's posts.

[Caryl]

:rofl: Lol, Nanci. I was wondering if maybe I was completely missing the connection.

Bitsy, I didn't mean to cite any particular differences. My statement that "there are behavioral differences" was an observation from my own experiences, as well as anecdotal evidence from other keepers and from breeders. There are feeding behavioral differences, such as the early tendencies of bloodreds or certain Miami phases to want anoles rather than mice. Certain other lines are noted as likely to be aggressive feeders. It's logical to infer that differences exist in other types of behavior than feeding; handling, breeding, etc.

I'm new to corns, but I've kept and bred an assortment of other things over the years. In horses and dogs, for instance, certain bloodlines have a reputation for calmness, intelligence, or aggression. I don't mean different breeds, such as Tennessee Walking Horses versus American Quarter Horses, but different families/bloodlines within the same breed.

All creatures are individuals. My 5 corns all exhibit differences in behavior. Some of that may be genetically coded. They're all young -'07s - but when they're ready to breed, I hope try to determine if some of these behaviors are heritable. In the meantime, I'd love to hear about any scientifically sound behavior/intelligence studies in snakes.

[Drizzt80]

What are those in Corns, in your view?Bloodreds are spazzy. Sunkissed are pissy. . . . just off the top for morphs.

I have corns that are "gentle" feeders and those that are "aggressive" feeders. . . . just off the top for individual snakes.

I have corns that will only eat in complete privacy and those that don't care if you hold them by the tail and move them around.

I have corns that "appear" to inspect the room when there's commotion in the classroom, and those that tend to hide all day until kids leave the room and the lights turn off.

I know I'm not Caryl, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night. :D
D80

[Caryl]

"I know I'm not Caryl, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
D80 "

What?!? How did you know I'm on vacation? :eek:

[Drizzt80]

How did you know I'm on vacation?I gots skills. ;)

D80

[Caryl]

Good thing you've got your BOI Good Guy Certification! :)

Do you know of any good behavioral studies involving snakes?

[Drizzt80]

Do you know of any good behavioral studies involving snakes?Scientific behavioral studies? No. Subjective observations of my personal collection and experiences? Yes. :)

D80

[Widget]

Out of mine they all have very distinct personalities. How much is genetic/line related I don't know, but here's the info anyway

Simbi - Crimson, July 07, breed by Serpenco, very laid back, easy to handle, can be a picky eater on occasion especially when shedding.

Hades - Lavender, 07, small breeder unknown stock, tends to be nippy/flighty, eats like a pig.

Ashera- Fire (amel Bloodred), 07 from SMR, a little flighty but calms down quickly after you pick her up, vicious mouse killer, very strong strike/coil response from the beginning.

So there's my spare change for what it's worth.

[bitsy]

Can any of the above observations really be put down as sweeping morph characteristics though?

I have a Bloodred and she's a sweetie (not spazzy at all!). On the other hand I have a Butter Mot that's a raging nutjob and two more that are really laid back. Plus a Normal that bites everthing warm that goes near her (just in case it's edible, y'know).

Are we sure we're talking about morph characteristics, and not just individual Corn variations?

[Drizzt80]

Can any of the above observations really be put down as sweeping morph characteristics though?I can truly only speak to Bloodreds. I just recently got two Sunkisseds last summer so don't have the "numbers" to use for those, but just about everyone that has Sunkisseds speaks of their pissy attitudes. FYI, mine aren't.

Speaking to Bloodreds, Over the past 3 years I've hatched roughly 150 Bloodreds. I didn't track spazzy behavior, but subjectively, I'd say approximately 100 to 125 of them were spazzy. :shrugs: Compared to other morphs I hatch out, they are spazzier. By spazzy, I mean they attempt to jump/fly out of your hand when you pick them up and/or thrash side to side. Sometimes calming down, sometimes not.

Just because it doesn't happen every time doesn't mean it's not a tendency for a morph. There are (almost) always exceptions to any "rule".

D80

[Caryl]

I've heard that ambers and many caramels are very gentle and laid back. I don't have any of those (yet) but that seems to be a consensus. Some of the behavioral variety out there is just individual variation. As Brent said, any individual animal may or may not possess any of the traits "typical" of its bloodline.

Still, some of the broad tendencies identified with a particular morph are likely to have a genetic component, especially when one considers that corn snake behavior is highly governed by instinctive, biological cues and imperatives. Can they be socialized? Sure. Does that mean they're no longer under instinctive controls? Nope.

There seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence out there concerning this topic. I don't think one could properly apply psychology to reptiles, as mentioned in the OP. I do think some types of behvioral/intelligence studies could be done. Gee, if only I could pull down a zillion-dollar grant.....:)

[v_various]

Someone mentioned an example of different personalities for different dog breeds on another thread, but I wonder if snakes are as complex. Do you think personality is influenced by morph or is it all environment or is each individual snake is truly an individual snake?

I don't have experience with a bunch of different corn morphs, but I think the main difference is that dogs were bred for jobs, and to have temperaments that suit those jobs. Of course huskies will have a different personality than a shih tzu, one was bred to run all day in the artic the other was bred to be a lap dog. Breeders aren't really trying for a range of personalities with corns as you would dogs, if a corn is a good feeder and not aggressive toward people there really isn't anything else you could want, personality wise. Though the idea of a 'guard snake' is amusing, now that I think of it.

I think it poses an interesting question. It's commonly known that Bloodred offspring are usually difficult to feed. It's commonly known that young Okeetees are more timid than other corns. It seems that these genes influence more than just pattern, but does it run down as far as the way a snake acts?

My friend has an okeetee, he's outgoing and has no problems booting around his viv when people are over.

[Caryl]

v_various is on target. Reptile breeders are very new on the scene in comparison to dog breeders. Corn snake breeders are working on physical traits like color, pattern, and health. I suppose someone may be working on breeding for temperament, but that doesn't appear to be the large scale trend at the moment. Let me add that I think that's completely appropriate at this stage of the game. I also think there will come a point - maybe soon, as more new people come into the hobby - when breeding for temperament will happen.

Now, who's up for developing that guard snake? How about a lap snake? After reading the last post, I got a mental picture of a sled being pulled by blizzard and snow corns........:dancer:

[Bloodred Dad!]

Speaking to Bloodreds, Over the past 3 years I've hatched roughly 150 Bloodreds. I didn't track spazzy behavior, but subjectively, I'd say approximately 100 to 125 of them were spazzy. :shrugs: Compared to other morphs I hatch out, they are spazzier. By spazzy, I mean they attempt to jump/fly out of your hand when you pick them up and/or thrash side to side. Sometimes calming down, sometimes not.


D80
Wow! that explains a lot...lol. Oh my. My blood was pretty spazzy when he was young. We didn't know why he did that. We just thought he "wanted to get away." I thought it was so strange. Now he very comfortable with handling though, so it doesn't really happen anymore. But good to know.

[Drizzt80]

I suppose someone may be working on breeding for temperament, but that doesn't appear to be the large scale trend at the moment. . . . I also think there will come a point - maybe soon, as more new people come into the hobby - when breeding for temperament will happen.I'm going to have to disagree on this to a point. One of the reasons corns are such a great beginner snake is that in general, they are a very very well tempered snake. Now specific cultivars (sunkissed/bloodred)? Yes, someone may decide to breed for temperament. I think you'll see it sooner with Sunkisseds then Bloods. Most are trying to get the Bloods back to the darker reds . . . I think? . . . which is probably "more important" than getting the spazziness out of them. :shrugs: (Especially since it's not necessarily an aggressive spazz.)

Here's another thread with pertinent information on this topic:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67062

D80

[pgr8dnlvr]

Just a note on lavenders being more "sickly". I don't have the time to search it myself right now, and it could drag this thread O.T., but somewhere on here there is a discussion as to the lavender gene.

I guess what it boils down to is that the theory is lavenders are lavenders not because of just a colour morph gene, but rather a gene that messes up the neural crest cell migration. The colour is a result of other physical deformities is what I got from it. Rich Z. seemed to feel that this may be true as he sees more gimpy lavenders than the other morphs. <correct me if I'm wrong Rich> so I would agree that lavenders CAN be more sickly. I know mine seems to have been a tad more touchy, but I have LIMITED experience as of yet! ;)

My sunkissed is a bugger too, and my bloods are certainly more food oriented and "nippy" at the same time. Certainly not difficult feeders anymore though it seems! lol!

Rebecca

[ghosthousecorns]

I'm going to have to watch the results from a pairing this year, I crossed two snakes that are really not very mellow. I have tried working with both of them to get them more tame but having acquired both snakes as adults, I think they will not change much.
While the purpose of the breeding was not to try and make mean babies, it will be interesting to see if they inherit prickly dispositions. The male has already fathered some babies with several different females last year, I noticed one clutch of his in particular from last year seemed to result in more bitey babies than usual.

[torsten]

i dont have many to compare with at the moment but all of my corns feed aggressively some feeds but non-aggressively other times, handling wise my anery stripe is really laid back and docile as is my abbotts okeetee.

[Bloodred Dad!]

I'm going to have to watch the results from a pairing this year, I crossed two snakes that are really not very mellow.
While the purpose of the breeding was not to try and make mean babies, it will be interesting to see if they inherit prickly dispositions.

Yes! Oh my. That's pretty a good idea, I'd say. I mean, that's cool that you can get two birds with one stone (so to speak). You definitely have to let us know how that works out.
That's also very interesting about the lavs. I never knew that. Very interesting.

[Roy Munson]

Just a note on lavenders being more "sickly". I don't have the time to search it myself right now, and it could drag this thread O.T., but somewhere on here there is a discussion as to the lavender gene.

I guess what it boils down to is that the theory is lavenders are lavenders not because of just a colour morph gene, but rather a gene that messes up the neural crest cell migration. The colour is a result of other physical deformities is what I got from it. Rich Z. seemed to feel that this may be true as he sees more gimpy lavenders than the other morphs. <correct me if I'm wrong Rich> so I would agree that lavenders CAN be more sickly. I know mine seems to have been a tad more touchy, but I have LIMITED experience as of yet! ;)

I don't have much evidence beyond anecdotal, but in my experience, lavs hatch smaller, and they're more prone to congenital defects. The rate at which they "fail to thrive" seems higher than that of other morphs. :shrugs:

[Caryl]

When I mentioned "breeding for temperament" meant attempting to improve the general attitude of those morphs that have a reputation for less than mellow behavior. I didn't specifically say that. Brent's absolutely right; corns are great beginner snakes in part because of their super dispostions. Maybe someday that'll be equally true of all morphs.

[Bloodred Dad!]

[QUOTE=Roy Munson;640144]I don't have much evidence beyond anecdotal, but in my experience, lavs hatch smaller, and they're more prone to congenital defects. [QUOTE]

I think everyone here knows how important experience is; how much you can learn from your own experience. Just because your observations weren't made in some kind of study, it doesn't mean them any less valid.

I find it interesting everyone's different experiences anyway. I think it's curious to find out how complex 'personality by genetics' are. And maybe 'personality' gives snakes too much credit, maybe 'disposition' is a better word. Just as parents pass on parts of their personality to their children, it would seem natural that two mellow bloods would produce a hatch of mellow bloods and so forth. I think the more people look it to it, the more interesting it'll be come.

I also agree with what's been said about focusing on breeding studies for temperament versus the morph studies. I very much believe that because corn snakes are such good natured snakes that temperament isn't really as important of an agenda at this point in time. Much further down the line, maybe...

[patm1313]

Do people who have gray eyes act differently then people with blue ones? I say no. Do African-Americans act different than Caucasians? Yes, but not because of their skin color, because of their culture, so no.

And different dog breeds act differently because they have come from different places, and have evolved to be what they are today.

[susang]

Do African-Americans act different than Caucasians? Yes, but not because of their skin color, because of their culture, so no.

And different dog breeds act differently because they have come from different places, and have evolved to be what they are today.

So a Black man born and raised in New York is different then a Caucasion man born and raised in New York? I think not while cultrue plays a role they are still men living in US,... Unless of course for example you're talking about the culture of poverty, breeding poverty, glass ceilings, no way out mentality that is not a culture of Balck only.
Different dog breeds act different because of their breeding not where they are from. A white teacup poodle and a black teacup poofle should act the same whether born in New York or LA.

[patm1313]

So a Black man born and raised in New York is different then a Caucasion man born and raised in New York?

Look, a Caucasian man born in New York may become an over-achiever destined for Harvard, or he could become his own little Eminem wannabe and think he's tough just because he was born in the Bronx. The same with a Black man, he could also go to Harvard, and find a very well paying job, or he could end up still in his hoe town at age 25, and wondering how he's gonna pay for his rent that week. Neither of those are dependent on skin color, but rather on how a person is raised, and what type of environment a person is exposed to, as well as the choices that person makes regarding education and other things (ie. drugs, crime). A person raised in a ghetto is probably 10 times less likely to find a well paying job and a decent life, compared to a person who was raised under a disciplined and religious family in the suburbs.

I think not while culture plays a role they are still men living in US,... Unless of course for example you're talking about the culture of poverty, breeding poverty, glass ceilings, no way out mentality that is not a culture of Balck only.

But yet all of those things can be affected by the environment a person is raised in. The no-way-out mentality may come from a person whose dad is in prison, brother died over a drug deal, and who's mom is a prostitute, for example. If that same exact person was raised in (using the example above) a suburb, in a "normal" family scene, he may go on to achieve ad succeed, and will not carry that no-way-out mentality.

Different dog breeds act different because of their breeding not where they are from. A white teacup poodle and a black teacup poofle should act the same whether born in New York or LA.

Yes, but think of this: Does and anery have a different shaped head from an Amel? Can a butter slither faster then a bloodred? I don't believe so. But yet, a German Shepard can run faster then a pug, and Golden retriever can swim like a fish but a chihuahua would probably drown trying to swim across a pond.

With dogs, there are different breeds. Breeds are not morphs, but rather, a compilation of traits. However, morphs are only changes in one trait, and that is skin pattern and color.

[Bloodred Dad!]

And different dog breeds act differently because they have come from different places, and have evolved to be what they are today.

First of all, dogs and humans differ almost too greatly to compare personality traits. People are so complex and are each inherently different. For dogs however, things are a little different. Dalmatians are prone to deafness because of the gene that causes spots (a physical characteristic). Also, the genes that create a small version of a specific dog (toy poodle vs. standard) often cause hydrocephalus and canine eclampsia. As well, the gene that causes Dachshund and Basset Hounds to have short legs also causes crippling of the legs (though they've been recently bred so their legs aren't crippled, the gene is still there. It took other genes from different dogs to over ride the crippling). And moreover, the gene that causes Bull Terrier skulls to look like they do also contributes to skin allergies and, in some Bull Terriers, behavior problems. Just because we can't instantly see the results of our actions, it doesn't mean that action wasn't created. And even though it may seem as minute as color pattern, it still makes a difference. My Doberman would still act like a Doberman if he was from Germany. It doesn't matter that he was born and raised here in Texas.

I really hope I'm making my point because it sounds ludicrous (to me) to say that origin has more to do with the way a species or breed turns out than the genetics of the situation (even if they're as miniscule as spots on a Dalmatian).

My 2 cents...

FYI: There are many studies that are going on currently about the discovery with Dalmatians and other breeds. You can take a look for yourself at http://www.dalmatianheritage.com/about/schaible_research.htm (really interesting)

[patm1313]

My Doberman would still act like a Doberman if he was from Germany. It doesn't matter that he was born and raised here in Texas.

I'm not talking about where they were born as much as I'm talking about their ancestry. Greyhounds, which come from Egypt (I think) are way different then say, wolves, which are found more around northern regions. Our dogs' ancestors had evolved to the environment that they were in, and the traits that they gained through evolution still show today in domestic dogs.

[Drizzt80]

. . . anyway . . . back to the topic at hand before apples were compared to kumquats . . .

Today I separated out my clutch of 16 hatchlings of which 9 were Normals definitely het Bloodred and the other 7 were Bloodreds. 3 of the Normals bit me and 6 of the 7 Bloods were spazzes but never bit.

D80

[Bloodred Dad!]

I'm not talking about where they were born as much as I'm talking about their ancestry. Greyhounds, which come from Egypt (I think) are way different then say, wolves, which are found more around northern regions. Our dogs' ancestors had evolved to the environment that they were in, and the traits that they gained through evolution still show today in domestic dogs.


That makes a little more sense. And just so we are clear, you know that every recognized breed of dog is a descendant of the wolf (hence the name Canis lupus familiaris), right? When dogs were domesticated and first studied, they not only noticed pattern mutations that occurred, but there was such a vast array of colors and patters that they mixed and matched for a while until they discovered how to make dogs different sizes, have different shaped snouts, etc.

[patm1313]

. . . anyway . . . back to the topic at hand before apples were compared to kumquats . . .

Today I separated out my clutch of 16 hatchlings of which 9 were Normals definitely het Bloodred and the other 7 were Bloodreds. 3 of the Normals bit me and 6 of the 7 Bloods were spazzes but never bit.

D80

First, both apples and kumquats are rather tasty. ;)

Second, I think that could be a coincidence, but I guess there is really no way to prove whether it is or not.

[Bloodred Dad!]

First, both apples and kumquats are rather tasty. ;)

Second, I think that could be a coincidence, but I guess there is really no way to prove whether it is or not.

Yes, yes apples and kumquats—I get it— I'm able to get so quickly sidetracked. :D

"I don't believe in coincidences" aside, I really don't think that it's a coincidence that many bloods are spazzy. Many sunkisseds are pissy. etc. If you look at other posts on this thread, you'll notice most of us are just considering the idea and offering opinions and knowledge through our own experiences. There is no specific research (as of yet) to back up the many observations we've made, but the sheer amount suggests otherwise. Study or not.

As I said before, we don't yet fully know the extent the genes for a particular pattern or color effects the individual snake. Drizzit has hatched over 150 bloods— in my opinion that is some pretty good experience with a certain morph. Through observation, it was concluded that bloods tend to be spazzier than different morphs.

It's interesting to think that such a miniscule difference in pattern may influence temperament... I feel

[Caryl]

Yes, Garrett, I'm with you. This has been an interesting topic ( though I was temporarily computer-less and unable to follow for a while). It's neat to hear about the experiences of breeders and keepers. Genetics is a fascinating subject, and the color/pattern variants are a huge draw for newcomers to corns. I too am interesting in the other implications of genetics.

[wade]

When I was a kid they used to teach that one of the differences between man and animals is that animals were 100% instinctual and man was 100% learned behavior. Nobody believes that anymore but I think the idea is still kind of stuck in the back of our heads. To say that we were born with certain traits makes man to be something less in some ways.

The OP was about the possibility of personality traits being genetic. I would say that to one extent or another, absolutely. I have two kids; they are 2 years apart in age. They were raised in the same home by the same parents, went to the same schools. Not 100% the same but very close. Their personalities are black and white different. Their behavior, goals, friends, everything about them is black and white. It’s like they were born on different planets. I’m sure many parents have seen this. Something other than the environment they were raised in has influenced their behavior.

A poodle is going to yap yap and then bite you. A Labrador is going to lick you hand and go lie down. It is genetic. All poodles and all labs have those qualities.

I have a dozen Honduran Milk Snakes of different morphs. They are all “spazzes”. Every one. Genetic. I don’t have any corns that act as stupid as a Hondo. Genetic.

If we are messing with the genes that control color and pattern, who is to say we are not effecting personality at the same time. We don’t know. I think there is some pretty good evidence for it. All we see is the Lav color. There are probably many differences in that snake that are not visible on the outside. It would be foolish to think otherwise.

[ForkedTung]

My first cornsnake after many years was an Amber, so I looked around for info. on them. I remembered reading this on Serpenco so I was able to find it again: It is from the site: Although it's not a good practice to try to associate particular personality traits with animals such as snakes and especially relating to a particular cultivar, most individuals of the Amber corn are the most fearless of any of the corn snakes we have produced. They seem to have a highly developed curiosity about their surroundings and have absolutely no fear of being handled. Whenever someone asks us for the most mellow and laid back of any of the cultivars of the corn snake, THIS is the one that always comes to mind.
I have found this to be true with mine.
My Blood is one of the most mellow snakes I have, although since breeding season he is having an identity crisis as he now is part rattlesnake, but otherwise mellow.
My snow females are THE original mellow yellows.
My normal w/hets is the most aware ( she tracks me when I walk around the room)and cautious...she seems to be more "wild"
My Lavenders, especially the Hypo males are extreme spazzoids.
Just my 2 cents...

[Caryl]

The last couple of posts said it well. There has been a "nature vs. nurture" debate about behavior in a variety of contexts for a long while. As in Wade's case, I've seen absolutely-for-sure genetic components in my own kids behavior. My older three are triplets; not identical, but they're definitely all the same age. They've had distinct differences in behavior/personality immediately. Genetic.

Yes, when we work on producing more ambers or bloodreds or striped-stippled-whatchamahoozies, we're also producing accompanying behaviors, whether or not we mean to do so, whether or not we recognize it. That's not necessarily bad, it's just the way the eggs pip.

[FunkyRes]

I don't know of any behavior that is tied to a morph gene but there certainly are issues with lines.
Some lines prefer to feed upon lizards so they may seem like they are more difficult to get started.

I got some hypo het lavenders that were a PITA until I threw in baby sceloporus - then they showed me they were willing to pound like any other snake. I had tried scenting and it didn't work (may have just been my method).

There definitely is a genetic component to feeding issues of neonates, however with out crossing and selective breeding (selecting the easy feeders as future breeders) we can increase the feeding response to rodents.