HELP!! What in the world is this?

[JustineNYC]

I took Tula out to feed her tonight, she refused, which is common for her. She refuses before blue, in blue and until she sheds. Last week she only ate because I warmed the mouse in broth.

Anyway, I come back to see if she ate her mouse and I see the mouse is still there and shes got a lump in her belly that looks like she already ate. Her last meal was last Thursday, thats 8 days.........why does she still have a lump? What the heck is this?

You can see it here......

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/HomeDepotGurl/IMG_0251-1.jpg

And when she crawls or lays a certain way, you cant see it at all, it goes away.........which is probably why I didnt see it when I scooped her out of her viv...

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/HomeDepotGurl/IMG_0255.jpg

Here it is protruding from her belly....

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/HomeDepotGurl/IMG_0257.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/HomeDepotGurl/IMG_0260.jpg

Its weird, it looks like a mouse in there thats split in half(her belly is clear).......It cant be?

There is no way its an impaction, she eats in her plastic tub, and I never let anything with a mouse scent touch the inside of the viv....it doesnt look like aspen anyway.....

Her warm temps are 85, she is housed alone, and she pooped this week, although it was smaller then usual....

Im freaking out, what is it?

[Talinea]

Hello!
When you are sure that this could no way be a mouse, go to a vet as soon as possible. It looks real strange, perhaps she has an infection that causes a swelling. Could she have broken/dislocated some ribs?
The fact that the "swelling" disappears on certain movements is strange and points to something different than a feeding lump...
She is a beautiful nice snake, you should really get her to a vet (or at least call a vet immediately and ask for a qualified advice), infections or injuries of the internal organs ca be quite dangerous...

Much luck that it's nothing severe!!

[JustineNYC]

I checked on her this morning and there was again a little poop in there. Her lump doesnt have those indentations sticking out, it looks as though she ate a small meal and the lump is curved now. You wouldnt necessarily notice it if you looked at her.

Ive been doing searches on here all morning on weird lumps that shouldve been long gone and appear to be food....Has anyone ever heard of a snake being extremely slow in digestion? It was a little large but nothing she couldnt handle.

http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65648&highlight=lump+days+feeding

Its almost like the mouse is digesting in pieces, like it broke off in the 3 slits I made in it before I gave it to her as she digested it. Shes been in her warm hide since she last ate, coming out to poop and drink....which is weird because she is usually climbing or curled up beside her water dish.

[Roy Munson]

I wish I could give you some reassuring words, Justine, but I don't know what that is. I've seen situations where it seemed that the onset of a shed cycle delayed the elimination of waste, but those lumps are pretty high up. I also had a situation where a snake developed a strange indentation and bulge where it looked like a few ribs may have been broken, though I couldn't figure out what would have caused such an injury. But it was nowhere near as pronounced as Tula's condition. I don't think you can rule out impaction. Food itself can cause impactions even if ingested substrate is not the cause. Then there's the possibility that she has a twisted intestine. There are endless possiblities.

I guess you SHOULD get her to a vet soon, although if I were you, I know I'd probably monitor the situation for at least a week before taking that step. Best of luck. Keep us posted.

[kcaven]

Poor Tula, I hope she's ok. I would get her to a vet as soon as possible.:(

[JustineNYC]

I wish I could give you some reassuring words, Justine, but I don't know what that is. I've seen situations where it seemed that the onset of a shed cycle delayed the elimination of waste, but those lumps are pretty high up. I also had a situation where a snake developed a strange indentation and bulge where it looked like a few ribs may have been broken, though I couldn't figure out what would have caused such an injury. But it was nowhere near as pronounced as Tula's condition. I don't think you can rule out impaction. Food itself can cause impactions even if ingested substrate is not the cause. Then there's the possibility that she has a twisted intestine. There are endless possiblities.

I guess you SHOULD get her to a vet soon, although if I were you, I know I'd probably monitor the situation for at least a week before taking that step. Best of luck. Keep us posted.

Dean, what do broken ribs look like? That bulge is pronounced like that when she begins to slither and I guess she contracts herself to move, when she stops, it goes away and looks like this..

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/HomeDepotGurl/IMG_0282.jpg


I went in and took some more pics....One thing I noticed, her belly, right where that is, is very soft when I push on it, her sides are hard I guess because of her ribs (I didnt even know they had ribs to be honest) If it was an impaction, wouldnt the lump be hard all around?



One thing I left out, when I removed her from her viv last night, I cleaned everything out. Her suction cup plant that she sits in all the way at the top, was laying in her water bowl, I doubt it wouldve yanked off the side unless she was in it....She is in a standard 20 gallon, thats about a 16 inch fall.

Could this be some sort of injury? If it is broken ribs, do they heal on their own?

I put her back in her viv now because I dont want to poke at her anymore, but the only vet thatll see snakes is at The Animal Medical Center and its a grand to walk in the door. Not that I wouldnt spend it.....Im torn becase I dont want to wait either, I know by the time a snake shows its sick its usually too late....Just thought Id update you with what I saw today and see what you thought...



http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/HomeDepotGurl/IMG_0284.jpg

Im not oppose to bringing her into Manhattan, I just know Ill end up spending $2,000 for her to see a herp vet and she'll die from stress before I get her home. Anyway, Im going to try and find someone in Brooklyn.

[stephen]

Maybe she is full of some kind of internal parasites eating away at her like maggotts! Ewwww Take her to the vet! :shrugs:

[Roy Munson]

Dean, what do broken ribs look like? That bulge is pronounced like that when she begins to slither and I guess she contracts herself to move, when she stops, it goes away and looks like this..I can't tell you what broken ribs look like for sure. I only had one captive snake where I suspected it, and I've seen what I thought were broken ribs on some wild garters as well. But I'm not sure that's what it was. I imagine that the snake might look "bowed out" on the sides and slightly indented beneath the affected area if ribs were broken. But I wouldn't imagine that it would look as extreme as what you're seeing on Tula.

I went in and took some more pics....One thing I noticed, her belly, right where that is, is very soft when I push on it, her sides are hard I guess because of her ribs (I didnt even know they had ribs to be honest) If it was an impaction, wouldnt the lump be hard all around? Skeletally, a snake is almost ALL ribs, connected to a zillion vertebrae. I really don't have enough experience with this sort of thing to give you a conclusive answer, but like you, I'm GUESSING that an impaction would be hard all around. Then there's always the fear of cryptosporidium. This causes a thickening of the stomach wall. But I don't know if that would cause the multi-lump look that Tula's showing. I would keep her away from other herps and maintain the best sanitary conditions possible until you know more. If she doesn't resume feeding, or if she starts regurging, then you'll have more to worry about.

One thing I left out, when I removed her from her viv last night, I cleaned everything out. Her suction cup plant that she sits in all the way at the top, was laying in her water bowl, I doubt it wouldve yanked off the side unless she was in it....She is in a standard 20 gallon, thats about a 16 inch fall.

Could this be some sort of injury? If it is broken ribs, do they heal on their own?I wouldn't imagine that a 16" fall could do an adult corn much damage. However, injury can't be ruled out. I don't think a vet would do much about broken ribs. You can't really bind a snake like you might a human with broken ribs.

I put her back in her viv now because I dont want to poke at her anymore, but the only vet thatll see snakes is at The Animal Medical Center and its a grand to walk in the door. Not that I wouldnt spend it.....Im torn becase I dont want to wait either, I know by the time a snake shows its sick its usually too late....Just thought Id update you with what I saw today and see what you thought...

Im not oppose to bringing her into Manhattan, I just know Ill end up spending $2,000 for her to see a herp vet and she'll die from stress before I get her home. Anyway, Im going to try and find someone in Brooklyn.It's a tough decision. I have to be honest, and I may get some crap for saying it, but I wouldn't spend $2000 for vet bills on a snake, even if the snake was super-high-end. I spent a few hundred on an egg-bound female a few months ago, so I'm not a heartless cheapskate. I ended up having to put her down anyway. Maybe you can look around for a less expensive alternative. My vet does herps, and she'd charge me about $60 to look at the snake. At that cost, I wouldn't hesitate to bring a snake in. But a grand to walk in the door, with no guarantee that they'd even be able to help, would be too much for me. Keep an eye on her. I wouldn't make any big decisions until she's shed and you've attempted to feed her again.

[JustineNYC]

Maybe she is full of some kind of internal parasites eating away at her like maggotts! Ewwww Take her to the vet! :shrugs:

Well thank god you posted, could you have told me to seek a vet without being a mean 9 year old or does that just come with being graced with your presence?

Anyway, thank you Dean, youve been alot of help :)

[highcolorcorns]

here's a post I did awhile back w/pics. http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65648

Sorry to say, mine died about a month later. I'd go to a vet. I didn't and well she didn't live.

[JustineNYC]

I have an appointment at the animal medical center on Monday, the doctor who is a snake specialist isnt in on the weekends.

Can I ask when your snake died? You originally posted on 3/31 and then again on 4/14 2 weeks later, a month after that wouldve been 2 months with no food? Did she not keep anything down after the lump appeared?

[Joejr14]

I bet you it's just crap. My adult female bloodred occasionally looks like she's been fed with a small rat---and that sometimes persists for a few weeks. Never been a full on problem, and always a nice pile of poo after the lump disappears from her.

:shrugs:

[Tula_Montage]

I was going to suggest it could be impaction, but it seems to be "digesting". In saying that, could it be a foreign object ie a bit of newspaper or substrate?

I love her name btw, I wonder why lol.

[JustineNYC]

I was going to suggest it could be impaction, but it seems to be "digesting". In saying that, could it be a foreign object ie a bit of newspaper or substrate?

I love her name btw, I wonder why lol.I actually got her name from you so thanks LOL

She is on aspen but like I said she doesnt eat in her viv....would she just chomp on aspen out of the blue like that?

[Nanci]

I hope it's just slow digestion. I'd be freaking out. At least you have photographs of it, so you can watch the progress, if any. I hope she's ok.

[JustineNYC]

I dont think its "nothing" anymore. Tula ate last night around 10 and then this morning I found her mouse in her water dish. Something is definitely wrong with her, Iv ehad her for a year and not one regurge til now. I gave her a tiny mouse too and it didnt pass through that....Well see what the dr says tomorrow.

I have to take the train into the city, can I put aspen in her tub to minimize her bumping around cause Im going to be walking....

[TandJ]

Thats kind of weird.. Maybe she will have crap before you take her to the vet.. If she does, bring a sample of the poop along for some testing.. I can only guess, but that could be a hugh parasite load, or some strange abcess or infection.. I certainly hope it is not crypto...

It should not be to much, to get an acid stain test done on the sample which should help ID the parasite if there is one, and of course they should be able to do a slide under the microscope too for a minimal cost..


Regards.. Tim of T and J

[highcolorcorns]

when I originally posted, that was when the lump was noticed and she regurged for the first time. The week before she had eaten( never missed a meal) and 3 days later she "pooped" as normal. I feed ever 5 days, the lump was there on day 5. I had never fed on any substrate, always in a seperate bin.
When she died I did not have it in me to cut her open and see what was the problem. Wish I had now, so maybe I could help someone else out. Sorry.

[Tula_Montage]

It could very well be an internal blockage thats not allowing her to digest properly. This happened to a little lavender motley I got about a year ago. She couldn't gigest food properly and it was getting stuck so we had to manually put it in (as she was a bad feeder) and manually get it out through massage. No life for a snake so we euthanised her. It could have been constricted intestinal passages. We never had an autopsy done. But I think the best advice is to get an xray done to determin whats in there and to check for any blockage.

[kcaven]

Please let us know what the vet says..

[JustineNYC]

Thank you to everyone for your help and concern, this is the strangest thing ever.

I took Tula out this morning, getting ready to go to the vet, and I immediately noticed, the lump is gone. I mean, completely gone. So I look high and low in her viv for poop and I dont see any. I knew if i took her in they were going to look at me like I was crazy.

I wasnt going to cancel the appointment because of how prominent those horrible lumps looked 2 days ago so I went anyway and tried and tried to explain to the doctor where and what the lumps looked like and tell them Im sure something is wrong because of the regurge. I told the dr the mouse got to that bulge and never moved past it, and it was regurged about 8 hours later. They asked me about temps, what im feeding, how Im feeding, etc. They thought initially it may be aspen but they couldnt feel it when they gave her her exam. The dr kept saying "Show me where the lump was again"

They brought in 3 herp doctors who kept saying the same thing, we dont see any lumps, she looks fine, alert etc, one said maybe it was a gas pocket, another said sometimes weird things happen with a snakes intestines, maybe it worked itself out, etc. They all felt her down from her neck to her tail and then brought another guy in to do it too, and then we did X rays and sat down with them and another doctor.

Basically, there is no obstruction. There is nothing unusual on her x ray except for the fact that her intestines are full of air.

The other thing is, I said before he belly is clear.....down by her cloaca waiting to be passed out, is a bunch of POO.

Could that entire thing be something that took long to digest? Cause it is completely gone and all of a sudden you can see poo inside her that was there before.

Anyway, they gave her something to help go to the bathroom and pass the gas. The doctors were very gentle with her, once she poops they want the sample to test for parasites just in case, but their convinced she is fine.

I feel bad I made her regurge. I shouldve just waited a few days for the lump to go away :confused:

The bill wasnt a grand, but it was close enough to it for me LOL

[Roy Munson]

I told you to wait! :grin01: Just kidding; the regurge was worrisome, so you did the right thing. I'm glad she seems to be ok.

[Tula_Montage]

The bill wasnt a grand, but it was close enough to it for me LOL

At least you have peace of mind now. Gas build up sounds plausible for sure...

[Nanci]

I'm glad she was ok. Like we always tell patients where I work, it's better if we don't find anything- even if that means you never know. You don't want us to find something.

[stephen]

You can let her swim in a warm bath that will help her pass anything it might still have inside. I execised all my corns in a tub with warm water each snake swam 20 minutes twice a week and man I have to tell you that its the best thing I have ever done all my females layed fertal clutches so far (18) of them and no egg binding! I keep mine in a snake rack and they just dont have the room to execise the way they would if they were in the wild!

[kcaven]

YAY! *doing a happy dance* I am so happy that she is ok!!:crazy02:

[stephen]

Well thank god you posted, could you have told me to seek a vet without being a mean 9 year old or does that just come with being graced with your presence?

Well, I see alot of people post on there snake problems with regurges and other problems,and others replys and most dont even have a clue on whats going on. If a cornsnake regurges bottom line its sick ,unless of course its a gravid female thats eyes are bigger then its stomach. I mean theres alot of sugar coating imo going on. Then the cornsnake dies and the person with that sick snake wonders why. I gave you the worst senerio of what it could have been,but how would you have felt if you never took it to the vet and it died? Because others told you its probably no big deal. Should I be one of those people who tells everyone that everything is going to be ok?
Sorry thats just not me!

[JustineNYC]

At least you have peace of mind now. Gas build up sounds plausible for sure...

Thats true. This is an odd experience for me, for sure.

I'm glad she was ok. Like we always tell patients where I work, it's better if we don't find anything- even if that means you never know. You don't want us to find something.

Yea, and it was pretty interesting to get to see a snake x ray too! :rofl:

Im just glad she is home and in her viv now, when I walked in with a little container they looked at me funny, the dr treats mostly large snakes.....they got a kick out of her though. Shes only about 70 grams.

[Nanci]

You know what, it's nice that you got to meet all the vets- now you'll know what they are like ahead of time if you ever have another emergency. It sounds like they were very thorough and caring.

[mdrews]

:dancer::crazy02::dancer:That's awsome news!!!:)hope all stays well!

[JustineNYC]

Well regardless of the fact that she checked out ok, she still regurged between Saturday & Sunday...so Im assuming I go by normal protocol and attempt again on the 11th, small meal with nutribac right?

[highcolorcorns]

I'm happy eveything went well for you..I guess yours and my snake sure didn't have the same problem, or mine was way more serious. Strange how things go away like that???? Kinda like taking your car to a mechanic and swearing something is wrong!!!!! Good luck.

[Talinea]

Hi!
I'm glad your girl was okay with the vets, looks as if good wishes work sometimes..!! I'm quite happy. :spinner: :dancer:

But just to be sure - I'd really take the next poo she does and let the vets have a look on it. :)
Intestinal gas accumulation can happen accidentally, by spoiled rodents, by parasites... In the last case it could happen again and it could get even worse. I don't want to be pessimistic, but some parasites have fluctuating life cycles so the symptoms show up, disappear, show up again...

You could take the fecal sample and send it to the vets per mail (just make sure you take an airtight box for it ;) ) the you also save the money for the gas/driving there :)

(I know it may be hard to spend more money on a snake that looks quite fine and healthy now, but then you will have the complete "peace of mind" ;) )

[TWGarland]

Well regardless of the fact that she checked out ok, she still regurged between Saturday & Sunday...so Im assuming I go by normal protocol and attempt again on the 11th, small meal with nutribac right?

I think your dead on there, better safe than sorry after all ;)

I think with a normal regurge you wait the ten days so the snake can replenish gut flora etc. but the way you described it in your snakes case then maybe the prey item wasn't regurged from the stomach as the blockage stopped it getting that far, but yeah best of waiting anyways i reckon.

All the best

Tom

[JustineNYC]

Well heres an update on Tula.....

This is her tonight, does she look any better?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/LeaveKurtAlone/IMG_0502.jpg

She never did poo, and it was 10 days since her regurge on the 11th. She didnt look well that day, and I got really worried cause she wasnt moving around much. She refused her pinky head but ended up shedding a few hours later. Once she shed she was active again, and she's been climbing the past few days......tonight I offered again because I used chicken broth and I thought maybe I could get her to take it. So far, nothing.

[Talinea]

Hi!
As far as I can see, she looks fine, but that she doesn't eat.... Try the known "tricks" - and if it doesn't work, you could get fluid nutrient from your vet (its Bioserin in German, don't know the english name) that can help her recover if she is ill... My vet can also take a sample without poo (by washing the cloaca someway), perhaps yours can also?

Much luck!

[SquamishSerpents]

ooh poor snakey! i also suggest taking a fecal in, just to be sure. hope to hear of good news!

[MegF.]

The swelling and regurge suggested something like crypto. If it happens again, I would take the mouse into the vet and have it tested. Often the crypto spores will not show in a fecal, but a stomach contents will have the disease showing. How much air was showing in the intestine? While some is normal, it should be relatively uniform and not excessive. I'm not sure that thickening of the stomach lining would show on an x-ray either. Hope she comes around for you. Did they do a fecal on her? Has she been tested for crypto just to be on the safe side? If you do take her back, I would suggest using a snake bag as it lowers the stress levels. All animals seem to be calmer and show less stress when they are bagged or have their head covered. A small snake bag is more discreet when traveling on public transport as well.

[Talinea]

Hello again!
Do you own other snakes or reptiles? If your little one has Cryptos (god may help she doesn't) they could infect other reptiles in you household too, because normal disinfectans don't work to kill their spores.
If you have other reptiles it could be safer to use one-use rubber gloves when you handle your patient, wash everything she touched properly with hot water or throw it away.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed she has no Cryptos, if you get her to the vets they can make a washing of stomach or cloaca to find out what matters her.
Much, much luck!

[JustineNYC]

The swelling and regurge suggested something like crypto. If it happens again, I would take the mouse into the vet and have it tested. Often the crypto spores will not show in a fecal, but a stomach contents will have the disease showing. How much air was showing in the intestine? While some is normal, it should be relatively uniform and not excessive. I'm not sure that thickening of the stomach lining would show on an x-ray either. Hope she comes around for you. Did they do a fecal on her? Has she been tested for crypto just to be on the safe side? If you do take her back, I would suggest using a snake bag as it lowers the stress levels. All animals seem to be calmer and show less stress when they are bagged or have their head covered. A small snake bag is more discreet when traveling on public transport as well.

Where the hell would she have gotten crypto though? Ive gotten all my snakes off here, so unless someone on here was selling snakes with Crypto I dont know how she wouldve gotten it.

They didnt test for Crypto and she didnt go to the bathroom after we left the vet. The air in the intestines to me didnt look like alot, but Im not a vet, and it wasnt enough to make a buldge because when I brought her in and told them about the lumps, they lookd at me like I was nuts.

Ive had her a year, so she was in my room with all my other snakes, standard quarantine is 60 days right? So basically if its crypto I can kiss all 5 of my guys goodbye?

[Roy Munson]

Where the hell would she have gotten crypto though? Ive gotten all my snakes off here, so unless someone on here was selling snakes with Crypto I dont know how she wouldve gotten it.

I don't believe that the nature of crypto in captive corn populations and the extent to which it is present is well understood. Most of us don't like to think about it. But I believe that it's more widespread than we'd like to think. I think that it is present in many collections. It may remain dormant for a snake's entire life, if the snake's health isn't compromised in some other way. It wouldn't shock me if a decent number of brumation deaths are due to crypto getting a foothold, especially when brumation conditions are not ideal. The testing for it is far from conclusive-- negatives can never truly be trusted (imo). I think that the seemingly prevailing attitude that three negatives can give you reasonable assurance that your snake is clean is delusional. The testing is expensive, and considering that the results can be meaningless, I can't blame keepers and breeders for not testing more thoroughly. To me, it's an unfortunate and misunderstood aspect of keeping cornsnakes...

They didnt test for Crypto and she didnt go to the bathroom after we left the vet. The air in the intestines to me didnt look like alot, but Im not a vet, and it wasnt enough to make a buldge because when I brought her in and told them about the lumps, they lookd at me like I was nuts.As far as I know, the thickening of the stomach wall that occurs when crypto becomes symptomatic is not a come-and-go thing. Once it happens, it doesn't reverse. I'm no vet, but as I understand it, by the time that happens, it's probably too late to save the snake.

Ive had her a year, so she was in my room with all my other snakes, standard quarantine is 60 days right? So basically if its crypto I can kiss all 5 of my guys goodbye?I don't think there's a "standard" quarantine period. Sixty days sounds kind of short, but with crypto, no length of time is long enough. How long do you quarantine an animal that can carry a parasite indefinitely without showing a single symptom? Six months? Six years? By all means, keep that snake away from the others and practive maximum hygeine until you get a handle on her issues. But if your other snakes are doing well, I wouldn't start getting super-spooked about them possibly having crypto...

[Cflaguy]

In the first post you say you "warmed" the mouse in chicken broth. What is that procedure?

[JustineNYC]

I always defrost in a baggie in hot water first but I dont remember if i heated the broth in the microwave and then put the mouse in or if I put the mouse in the broth and put that in the micro for a few seconds. By now its almost a month I dont remember...and Ive done it both ways for another poor eater I have. She didnt eat it for an hour anyway so making it hot was redundant.

[Nanci]

IF she has crypto, I doubt you have to kiss your other five goodbye. They'd have to have been in contact, directly or indirectly (via you or a contaminated hide, waterbowl, whatever, that was shared) with her poo or regurge. So as long as you practice clean handling procedures- washing your hands after touching poo, etc., I wouldn't worry about it overly, IF she even has crypto.

[JustineNYC]

Does that mean IF she has it she wouldve had to come into contact with the poo or regurged mouse of another snake that had it.......or is it more likely IF she has crypto she was born with it and it didnt surface til now.

[Nanci]

There is a really, really good book, Understanding Reptile Parasites, by Roger Klingenberg. I'm going to paraphrase from that. Cryptosporidium serpentis has two types of oocysts. 80% are thick-walled and are passed out of the snake to go on to infect others and to reinfect the host if there is chronic exposure. 20% are thin-walled and stay in the snake to maintain the lifecycle within the host. The life cycle has yet to be clearly defined, but is probably a direct cycle. The severity of the infection is a result of reinfection with thin-walled oocysts, repeated exposure to thick-walled oocysts, and the immune status of the host. Transmission is oral-fecal, and appears to be most commonly transmitted through contaminated water. These infections result from the ingestion of sporolated oocysts shed by infected reptiles or by predation of infected snakes and lizards.

[stephen]

I am pretty sure feeder mice can carry crypto and pass it on to the snake,even if its a frozen thawed mouse it could still have it.I am not sure but I think it takes really cold temps to kill it. I hope she dont have it,I wouldnt keep tryin to feed it I would wait at least 14 days,hope it goes good for you and your snake!

[Nanci]

I also read in that book that repeated attempts to infect feeder mice with crypto were unsuccessful, although it is popularly believed that that is a mode of transmission...

[Talinea]

Hi!
As far as I know, there are different species of cryptos in rodents, snakes and lizards.
The species cryptosporidium serpentis and c. iguana are infective and potentially deadly for many snakes and lizards (both forms).
The species cryptosporidium muris is carried by feeder mice and other related rodents. It can be found in snake fecals or regurges, but it is not infective nor harmful to the snakes.

When you check fecal samples - e.g. as many german keepers do at "exomed"institute in Berlin - the IFT (immunofluorescence test) can distinguish the mice-cryptos from the others and they tell you if the crypto-species is harmful.
Other tests who cannot distinguish show cryptos anyway, so it's not easy to be *kind of* sure...
A IFT is expensive (around 56 $) and not done everywhere, but I thought I could add the info :-)

[Weebonilass]

I haven't seen this suggestion, but have you thought about either emailing or printing and sending the pictures that you've been showing us here to the Vet clinic, so they can see what you were seeing? That might help them better visualize what you've been talking about.

[JustineNYC]

I didnt want to post last night and jinx her, but she did finally eat for me. I gave her a pinky head, which is small for her because she eats large fuzzies normally, swirled it in warm chicken broth and put her in a small deli cup with it. Took her about 2 hours to down it and then she fell asleep in the cup.

Seems if she isnt in something small where she can barely move to get away from the mouse she wont eat.

So far so good, I just checked again and no regurge, but she is making me nervous because she is :CLIMBING: yikes! The mysterious lumps never returned....


Her last meal was around May 22rd...And the following week after eating she regurged June 1.....I checked her weight yesterday and she hasnt lost any surprisingly. She is 57 grams which is what she was last month.


She just turned a year old so she is small for her age, but her eating habits, normally, really stink. Thats why its hard for me beside the one regurge to tell if shes ill. Before during and after shed, she just wont eat.

Now Im just waiting on a successful feed.

[abell82]

IF she has crypto, I doubt you have to kiss your other five goodbye. They'd have to have been in contact, directly or indirectly (via you or a contaminated hide, waterbowl, whatever, that was shared) with her poo or regurge. So as long as you practice clean handling procedures- washing your hands after touching poo, etc., I wouldn't worry about it overly, IF she even has crypto.

This is not accurate from what I understand. Those pesky little gnats, can also transmit the crypto from one tank to another, by landing in the fresh fecal, and then into the water of an uninfected snake. Or so it is believed. There is a thread on this in one of the kingsnake forums (I believe it was the Hognose forum).
Crypto is EXTREMELY infectious, HARD to KILL, and LONG LIVED. It was told to me by a vet that studied Crypo, that Crypto can live up to 1 year without water, and without host. This means that ANY reptile, handled could be a source of infection, even if it is not in your actual collection. Pet stores, reptile shows, friends animals, all become a potential source of infection. And even Birds seem to transmit or carry Crypto Serpentes, and pass it in there fecal, though they do not seem to be harmed by it. (How many members have a bird, or feed birds?) This makes the actual cause VERY hard to pinpoint. Good luck to all of us.

[JustineNYC]

Still no regurge as of today, and no lumps either....So I guess Im operating under the assumption that the air passed after they gave her the laxative....

My question is, providing she poops tomorrow or the day after, how should I approach her meals size wise...She got down a pinkie head which obviously didnt leave a buldge....Should I do a fuzzie head next week? Bump her up slowly?

I dont really have experience with regurges.

[Nanci]

What was her usual meal size before the regurge? Will you be feeding her at 5 days or seven days? I might do a whole pink, cut in half crosswise, feed both halves, dunked in Nutribac. I'd continue Nutribac for a couple months, at least.

[Cegninedorf]

What was her usual meal size before the regurge? Will you be feeding her at 5 days or seven days? I might do a whole pink, cut in half crosswise, feed both halves, dunked in Nutribac. I'd continue Nutribac for a couple months, at least.
Just my .02...NutriBac is amazing stuff. It has helped a few of my snakes, and a couple of other reptile-friends...:) I order it from Kathy Love http://www.cornutopia.com/ I sprinkle some in a container & roll the moistened/thawed mouse in the powder and/or just sprinkle it *liberally* on the mouse; it is sticky, though, when wet. I was paranoid about quantity, at first, when using it because I didn't want to OD the poor snake, but thus far no problems...and I've healthy snakes to show for it! :) Did I mention that I love this stuff?

Good luck with your poor baby!

[JustineNYC]

What was her usual meal size before the regurge? Will you be feeding her at 5 days or seven days? I might do a whole pink, cut in half crosswise, feed both halves, dunked in Nutribac. I'd continue Nutribac for a couple months, at least.

She was eating large fuzzies from TMF every 7 days, providing she wasnt in blue or about to shed, she wouldnt have taken a meal every 5 anyway. Her last few meals were on the larger side cause I was in the process of bumping her up.......Maybe Ill do the whole pinkie cut in half, that sounds good.

I have Nutribac, and offered it 4 times with the broth scenting and you know she wouldnt take it....On Saturday I said, let me try without it and wouldnt you know she ate it. Ive been putting it in her water though.

[Nanci]

Cut the pink in half after it's thawed. Not too messy. Then I just dunk the cut end in Nutribac. If you're putting it in her water, you know you have to change the water very frequently, right, because there is bacteria growing in it. I'd do several meals of cut in half pinks, (with Jasper, I even cut his in thirds for two meals!) increasing the pink size slightly each time, then maybe go to one and a half pinks, then double pinks still cut in half, and since fuzzies are really gross to cut in half, then just do really deep slitting. I absolutely wouldn't rush, because you really, really, really don't want a second regurge.

[JustineNYC]

No youre right I certainly dont....Ill have to go buy some pinkies, I dont usually keep them because I dont have any hatchlings.

The pinkies are enough to nourish her even though shes a yearling? As long as she keeps them down? Cause as soon as she ate she rested and then started climbing.

Anyway, yea Ive been changing her water everday, I read on the back of the nutribac you could put it in water but it had to be changed daily.

I also quit handling her. I was handling her alot after those lumps appeared, poking and pressing her belly wondering what the heck was wrong with her and stuff and then :awcrap: she regurges.

[JustineNYC]

BTW, she is a 57 gram yearling....so, not exactly the same as a 150 gram one.

[serpentalley]

I hope Tula is ok and does not regurge a second time. Will be keeping our fingers crossed.

I was reading your thread with great interest as I lost a tiny baby to some sort of bloat-like condition (that is what it appeared to be anyhow). I had purchased a hatchling size snake (for my daughter's bday-our very first snake too:awcrap:) that supposedly had eaten but then I found out they were not able to feed it. I was able to get a response by tease feeding the poor thing but she never did take/swallow the pinky. A few days later, she died (we only had her for about 5 or 6 days).

When we examined her, the body had a buldge in the middle (that I had never noticed before) that looked like gas or liquid and you could see greenish coloration below the skin in the abdominal cavity. I could almost swear it was a rupture or rot of some sort inside her abdomen. We never got a necropsy done (I was just out good money for that snake and now was looking to buy another).

Lucky for Tula the bulge is gone and she felt good enough to eat so that is a very good sign.

She is a very pretty snake btw.

Colette

[JustineNYC]

I hope Tula is ok and does not regurge a second time. Will be keeping our fingers crossed.

I was reading your thread with great interest as I lost a tiny baby to some sort of bloat-like condition (that is what it appeared to be anyhow). I had purchased a hatchling size snake (for my daughter's bday-our very first snake too:awcrap:) that supposedly had eaten but then I found out they were not able to feed it. I was able to get a response by tease feeding the poor thing but she never did take/swallow the pinky. A few days later, she died (we only had her for about 5 or 6 days).

When we examined her, the body had a buldge in the middle (that I had never noticed before) that looked like gas or liquid and you could see greenish coloration below the skin in the abdominal cavity. I could almost swear it was a rupture or rot of some sort inside her abdomen. We never got a necropsy done (I was just out good money for that snake and now was looking to buy another).

Lucky for Tula the bulge is gone and she felt good enough to eat so that is a very good sign.

She is a very pretty snake btw.

Colette

Thanks!
Someone else will be alot more educated in the exact anatomy, but the green coloration in the belly after death is the...gall bladder secreting post mortem fluid I believe. Ive read it on here quite a few times.

[JustineNYC]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Look what I found!



I saw something glistening and I got nervous, but upon inspection and scooping it up with my metro card....Its got urates in it!! YAY!

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/HomeDepotGurl/IMG_0655.jpg

[kcaven]

YAY! So happy for you...Ive been reading this thread and feeling so bad for the stress you've been under.

(Hope you didnt have to go anywhere soon on public transportation??LMAO):eek1:

[serpentalley]

Good news but.....Ah, YUCK> I can see the yellow but is that gravy brown stuff normal? I've never seen any of my snake's faeces that color, ever. Must admit, very educational hehe.

As per the gall bladder leaking, the green coloration was near the vent and the gall bladder should be near mid body, if I remember correclty. But, yeah, it prob. was that the snake was rotting away. eech.

Best of luck on her next feed and keep us posted!

[JustineNYC]

It should be brown but Im guessing its watery because she A. Hadnt eaten in a month and B. It was a pinky head....Not much to digest, Im just happy it passed through.

[Okeetee_Corn_Snakes]

Keep us posted on her. I really hope its a sign she is getting better, I am just not sure about the consistency in it though. But I hope it is alright


Ps. I will never touch gravy again! Lol

[abell82]

Yeah, umm.... I don't think that is a "normal" defication.
I would DEFINATELY have that looked at by a vet.

[Nanci]

Don't forget that at her vet visit, she was given a snakey laxative- that probably affected the quality of her poo.

[JustineNYC]

Don't forget that at her vet visit, she was given a snakey laxative- that probably affected the quality of her poo.

Ya. And she hadnt gone since then so Im assuming the stuff they squirted down her throat had to come out eventually.

Least I know she is drinking water. :p

[Alex_Day]

hi ya

My cousin is a herp and owns 21 snakes. a couple of his snakes had the same problem and it turned out to be obesity. im not saying it is but that has been the problems and it looks like it too

[JustineNYC]

Cut the pink in half after it's thawed. Not too messy. Then I just dunk the cut end in Nutribac. If you're putting it in her water, you know you have to change the water very frequently, right, because there is bacteria growing in it. I'd do several meals of cut in half pinks, (with Jasper, I even cut his in thirds for two meals!) increasing the pink size slightly each time, then maybe go to one and a half pinks, then double pinks still cut in half, and since fuzzies are really gross to cut in half, then just do really deep slitting. I absolutely wouldn't rush, because you really, really, really don't want a second regurge.


Hey Nanci, just wanted to update on Tula since its been a while. Shes is still feeding every 2 days, last 2 meals went great, she ate right away and pooped 2 days later. I was also able to give her nutribac on both meals and her lumps havent returned. Thanks for your help, Im still doing the pinky heads.

Only thing Ive noticed is she is very active, all she does is clmb, I guess because her meals arent satisfying her. She fell in her water 2 days ago and I was sure itd cause a regurge.

[JustineNYC]

Sorry that should be every SEVEN days LOL

[kimbyra]

I'm so happy to her she is recovering! I've been following this post with some concern. Congrats!

[Nanci]

Glad to hear she is doing well with no more regurges!