Kisatchie Corn Snake Pics

[kellum]

Does anyone have any pictures of Kisatchie Corn Snakes? (other than the South Mountain image)

And are they really a guttataXemory? Rich? Serp? Clint? Pewter? or any other genetics gurus have an opinion?

[Clint Boyer]

I don't think they are a cross, so to speak. I think they are more of a natural variation of guttata that developed over a long period of time, much like the Keys corns. I have no experience with the ranges or natural history of the areas that the Kisatchies inhabit but draw my conclusions from the writings of others that have that expertise.
With that being said, there may be an evolutionary link in the guttata line that branches off of the limb that corns and Great plains rats share. Not a cross so much, but more of a link between the two.

Ronda of Northwest herps has some pics on kingsnake.com's photo gallery of Kisatchies.

[pdrau]

It's kistachie not kisatchie by the way. I thought kistachies were a naturally occuring color morph specifically found in Louisiana. I believe kistachie is an Louisiana "indian"/native american word, possibly a cajun word, although I don't know what it means. My father used to belong to the Kistachie Cajuns hunting/fishing club, so maybe it is cajun. Time to do some history research. Nonetheless, the morph is as far as I know a dark morph found only here. Probably more specifically to the Kistachie National Forest.

Just my two cents.

Peter

[Clint Boyer]

I didn't think that Kisatchie was wrong, is there another place called Kistachie?
Here's a link
http://www.user.fast.net/~rnb/knf.html

[pdrau]

It is spelled incorrectly on that site. It is Kistachie. Do a web search on Kistachie and you'll find a lot of sites about the national forest. I've lived in Louisiana all my life.

http://www.scenicpath.com/places/LA/alexandria.cfm

[Clint Boyer]

Here's one for a National forest:

http://www.southernregion.fs.fed.us/kisatchie/

Beats me, it looks like it's spelled both ways depending on where you look.

[Iris]

I always thought it was Kisatchie since that's how it's spelled on cornsnake.net and that's the only place I've ever seen them advertised.
Anyway, I once posted a thread asking if anyone had pictures of Kisatchies and the only response I got was to go look at the one on cornsnake.net. :( I did find a couple on kingsnake.com though.

[pdrau]

Ahh well hmmm...lemme think where I saw some pics...maybe someone here has some and can take some pics for us. Don't guess living here for 36 years counts for anything. :p

[Clint Boyer]

I'm not implying that you're wrong, I was just showing what I had found. :confused:

It seems to work either way. When I did a search for Kistachie on Google, it listed a bunch of stuff then at the bottom asked if I meant to search for Kisatchie. Only guess I can make is that it has been misspelled so often that it is accepted either way.

I'd love to see a pic of the sign entering the National forest!

Hey! Look what I found!
http://www.southernregion.fs.fed.us/kisatchie/recreation/images/preserve_photo.jpg

[pdrau]

Heh, ok you win! I was thinking the same thing. Figures people from around here have said it wrong all my life! I feel so confused!!! LOL Even people who make websites for Louisiana spell it wrong. Like on the one I posted the URL for.

Still can't find any pics. Every place I've found a pic of one is a copy of the one on cornsnake.net. I did find something that said that kisatchie is indian for "snake." LOL

[Clint Boyer]

It was very confusing and I like to get to the bottom of things. :)

Here's a link to Ronda's pics on kingsnake.com:
http://gallery.kingsnake.com/index.pl?thumb=1&stype=2&si=Ronda&perpage=12&sort=1&cat=512&user=

[pdrau]

Hehe, it was all in fun. I like to get to the bottom of things as well and being stubborn and standing my ground generally pushes people to do what it takes to disprove what I'm saying. We both win, cuz now we are informed. Actually, everyone does. Now we can send nasty emails to all the sites that have it spelled wrong! :D

Didn't really think about it before now, but it might be worthwhile to acquire a pair or trio. They are pretty snakes and with all the light colored morphs out there something dark could go over well. Is it just me or are there way more light morphs than dark?

[kenalotia]

Funny... I followed Clint's link to see the pics of Kisatchie (or Kistachie?) corns, and they both looked a lot like normal corns. The first one didn't look very dark at all. The second one was darker, but still looked pretty normal. Is there a big difference between them and normals that just wasn't apparent in these pics? (Or maybe I just wasn't noticing it?)

[pdrau]

I noticed the same thing. The second is more like a kisatchie with the deep maroon, but the one on cornsnake.net is more typical. At least from what I've seen and read.

[Serpwidgets]

Originally posted by kellum
Does anyone have any pictures of Kisatchie Corn Snakes? (other than the South Mountain image)

And are they really a guttataXemory? Rich? Serp? Clint? Pewter? or any other genetics gurus have an opinion?

I have no opinion on this either way because I know little to nothing about Emoryi, or what crosses would look like. :shrugs:

[jim]

i'm betting that a goodly percentage of the snakes in south carolina look like what rich or kathy love or (etc.) sell as okeetees. what everyone now considers an okeetee is just a red and orange corn with deep black borders. some of these "okeetees" probably on the market aren't even from south carolina anymore. (some are, some aren't) okeetees, i think, have just become an idealized snake regardless of locality. on the other hand some "okeetees" of pure south carolina blood are missing the very traits that make them an "okeetee". now kisatchies, being a locality specific animal, are probably going down the same road that okeetees have already traveled; thus the variability in kistachies.
anyone see any merit in this argument???? :) ---jim

[pdrau]

You are probably right Jim, although the thought of that is quite disappointing considering the differences between the pic on cornsnake.net and the pics that Ronda posted.

If the brown saddles on a kisatchie was developed into a deep rich mahoganey or maroon while retaining the darker coloration in the pattern, would it look like some other morph? How about those same colors in a motley or striped?

I'm picturing a dark greyish-black background with a contrasting pattern of mahoganey or maroon.

Peter

[Clint Boyer]

That there has not been enough interest in them yet for anyone to be doing any selective breeding just yet.
Those that Ronda posted probably show that there is as much variation in the wild group of Kisatchies that there is with wild caught snakes from the Okeetee area.
It sounds to me like the Kisatchies may very well go the way of the Okeetees, being bred for a certain look and then being called Kisatchie for that look. That would certainly be possible.

[kellum]

Jim- I agree.
To me it is of no real relevance if a snake of a certain phase came from the region for which it was named. Obviously a set of genetic traits cause an animal to have a certian look. If the original Amel Dr. Bechtel bred had been named for the region of North Carolina it was caught in would people dispute its amelanisim? The problem is that a lot snakes from the Okeetee region don't look "Okeetee" just as a lot from the Kisatchie region dont look "Kisatchie". I have seen Jasper Co. corns that were as normal and "dirty" as any in the wild. The name is for the "Look" of the snake- that look created by its genetics. And as long as breeders breed to enhace or preserve the look I see no problem with marketing them under the name.

It will be a shame if breeders just start labeling dark snakes as Kisatchies just to make a few more bucks.

[kellum]

thanks for everyones response btw
Its nice to have a large knowledge base to draw on when ya have questions!

[jim]

keith,
do you really think someone would do that just to make a few extra bucks? (incredulous look only partially masked by sarcasm) seriously though i think you are, unfortunately, probably right about that. what people will do for money does not surprise me any more. (not that this ranks up there with eating bugs on national television or going on a talk show with your girlfriend who is also your niece) what a strange, strange world..... :) ---jim

[Matt L]

Jim/Keith,
I think we could easily have written okeetee and Kisatchie off as normals if we wanted to. I have seen so many variations of each it is silly. I'm sure some were given the name on visual appearance only and have very little actual genetic lineage. Quite disturbing I thought. I do own an okeetee--very dark saddles and almost peach collored background. Not really any intent on breeding at this time, but a beautiful snake none the less.

just a thought--I was up--couldn't sleep

[kellum]

I suppose the best scenerio would be a breeder attempting to enhance a Kisatchie looking snake with super dark saddles on a super pale background (finding a predictable genetic trait) and renaming it based on coloration or some other basis rather than geographic origins.

Anyway- its an interesting looking snake- I guess time will tell it there is interest enough for some breeder to dedicate time to explore it further.

[Darin Chappell]

Personally, after having heard all of the arguments ad nauseum, I am in favor of calling animals "okeetees" in the same manner that Kathy Love has expressed on her site.

If an animal has that "look" and traces its ancestry to animals from that specific region, it is an okeetee. If it simply has the "look" it is a beautiful "classic" corn, but is not an okeetee. The same would hold true, in my opinion, for an animal labled as "kisatchie."

In this way, people for whom that particular look and geographic origin are important can have their snakes with their lineages. For those who find it less important, they can get beautiful snakes for less $$$. I think it's a win-win situation.

Darin

[Alicia]

http://www.kingsnake.com/louisiana/corn_snake_natchitoches.htm

I don't know if anyone else posted this link but I found this one while looking for something else.

:) Alicia

[pdrau]

Now that's a truly beautiful snake! Thanks Alicia!

Peter

[crazyg]

Does anyone have any pictures of Kisatchie Corn Snakes? (other than the South Mountain image)

And are they really a guttataXemory? Rich? Serp? Clint? Pewter? or any other genetics gurus have an opinion?

i got a male and a female ill post some pics

[dsknorr@hotmail.com]

Look at KJUN snakehaven's member forum, on pg 3 or so there are pics and a progression thread.

here's a link

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=82

[Susielea]

Hey guys, just pointing out this thread is over 6 years old ;)

[KJUN]

Yeah, but there is no reason not to bring up Kisatchie cornsnakes again. :)
KJ

[Susielea]

Yeah, but there is no reason not to bring up Kisatchie cornsnakes again. :)
KJ


When you post pics of gorgeous snakes like that, I can't disagree ;)

[Devilscat]

They are so beautiful. I'm getting my kistachie X coral snow baby next week. :D I do have everything ready. Her name is Leila, which means dark beauty.

[Camby]

http://www.kingsnake.com/louisiana/corn_snake_natchitoches.htm

I don't know if anyone else posted this link but I found this one while looking for something else.

:) Alicia

Hey, I owned that snake at one time. He was very red but still looked considerablly different froma a normal corn or emoryi. Kisatchie Corns just have their own look.

dc

[Jay@PJCReptiles]

Hey KJUN....post pictures of that "Silver Leaf" you have and the "dark eyed" Anery and freak them all out. Now that "Silver Leaf" is one very cool looking snake. ;)
Jay :cool:

[KJUN]

By the way, much in those 2002 posts was downright wrong. It IS "Kisatchie," it has nothing to do with snakes, and it is not a cajun word. Here's the best explaination, and the cane almost definitely referenced Phragmites along the "high" banks of Kisatchie Bayou:

"The first inhabitants of Kisatchie country were Indians of the Caddo and Natchez groups; kisatchie is an Indian word meaning "long cane" and is probably Caddo Indian in origin."

Hey KJUN....post pictures of that "Silver Leaf" you have and the "dark eyed" Anery and freak them all out. Now that "Silver Leaf" is one very cool looking snake. ;)
Jay :cool:

Now, why would anyone ever want to look at images of these guys?????

http://www.kingsnake.com/louisiana/corn_snake_natchitoches.htm


Too bad that red seemed to fade to a more typical brown as he aged. When Mike M. first collected that guy, he was phenomenal. Even though he was an adult, he looked like a normal hatchling cornsnake after no more than 2 sheds. Amazing, but by time he died, he was a typically colored Kisatchie. I couldn't have picked him out of a group of "normals" to save my life. Too bad. Mike had collected him about 30 seconds before collecting another male 150 feet away. The other male was typical Kisatchie looking.

Still, that look was NOT typical for Kisatchies, so I hope nobody buys want wanting them to look that way. I've never been able to repeat it (once I acquired the animal from DC). Again, too bad..... Even the silly Kisatchie hybrids I've seen don't turn out looking like this.

They are so beautiful. I'm getting my kistachie X coral snow baby next week. :D I do have everything ready. Her name is Leila, which means dark beauty.

Hey, hey, hey. Kisatchies only. No hibirds. :-poke:

KJ

[Devilscat]

Kjun those are gorgeous

[Susielea]

Now why would we not want to see those gorgeous animals KJ, they are STUNNING!!! :)

[Brewster320]

Wow KJUN that last one is amazing! I'm seriously jealous.