I did all I possibly could...

[Tula_Montage]

... But this wee boy wasn't meant to make it.

I took him in for a friend as she had too many non feeders and not enough time. He never once ate voluntarily but took around 6 assist feeds with no probelms. It simply wasn't enough... He got weaker and skinnier and tonight I found him struggling to pass solid greenish urates. I lifted him up and he was just too weak to wriggle free and had horrific skin folds. Enough is enough. RIP baby boy. I am so sorry I couldn't help you... but you are out of your misery now :(


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/nonfeeders020.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/nonfeeders025.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/nonfeeders026.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/nonfeeders027.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/nonfeeders029.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/nonfeeders030.jpg

[diamondlil]

Condolences Elle.

[Tula_Montage]

Condolences Elle.

Thanks J9. I knew there was a big chance the three I took wouldn't make it. But it just doesn't get any easier. Finding them dead is one thing, chosing to end their life is another :(

[tom e]

RIP little guy! Sorry to hear it Elle. It's never easy, is it..

[diamondlil]

Yep, I know. I've got 3 non-feeders that have so far refused f/t and live. I haven't decided whether to wait, assist or euthanise.

[Susielea]

I'm so sorry Elle, but you did the best you could and at least he isn't suffering now, some are just not meant to make it :(

[Tula_Montage]

I know guys thanks. But thinking on it, would you want to send a snake that started out as a non feeder out into the gene pool? Even if I did get him started eventually, how would anyone guarentee his poor feeding genes (not to mention he has a kinky non feeding sister which I also have) would not spread...

It's always such a tough descision to make, but when theres that glimmer of hope you can't help but want to just give them a chance :(

[Bluebird]

aww..so sorry Elle...I'm sure it was very difficult for you.

[Rebecca_in_NY]

I'm so sorry he didn't make. Although new to cornsnakes, I'm certainly not new to animals and untimely deaths/euthanisia and you're right, it never gets any easier. You obviously did all you could and your care and dedication is to be commended.

[Kazarus]

I don't think I'd kill something because of it being a poor feeder. I can understand if it's kinky though.

A friend of mine has horrible feeders. It was a struggle every time to get those two to eat. And then they eventually got better. And when they had babies, the babies ate fine. So I'm not really convinced issues with feeding are genetic mutations.

But hopefully they are, as I wouldn't want people to be killing their snakes just due to the fact that it's too much to give them the chance and work with them.

[Tula_Montage]

I don't think I'd kill something because of it being a poor feeder. I can understand if it's kinky though.

A friend of mine has horrible feeders. It was a struggle every time to get those two to eat. And then they eventually got better. And when they had babies, the babies ate fine. So I'm not really convinced issues with feeding are genetic mutations.

But hopefully they are, as I wouldn't want people to be killing their snakes just due to the fact that it's too much to give them the chance and work with them.

I think you miss the point. He was starving to death BECAUSE he was a non feeder despite trying every trick in the book AND assist feeding. Feeding issues have deffinatley been proven to be genetically inheritable (take the original strains of blood reds for example). I have no doubt whatsoever that I made the right descision. Not only was he a non feeder, he was having impaction problems and was too weak to push out his urates. Would you have left him to it and just waited to see if he got better or waited until he died? Because I know what the outcome would have been, and was not willing to let him suffer any longer.

[Nanci]

I'm glad he at least had a chance. Who knows why he didn't take it. Probably something internally wrong.

[starsevol]

So sorry, Lass.
I'm facing the same thing over here....

[Tula_Montage]

The thing that bothers me most is that my friend still has lots of these non feeders. A few died recently actually. I just want to take them all and at least TRY.

I wasn't going to assist feed the female motley girl tonight (his sister) but seeing him go the way he did made me just get on and do it (I hate doing it). She has a pink in her now, and should keep her going until I figure out what it is she wants to eat. She was into chicken to a while, but apparently not anymore?

[diamondlil]

It's too easy to get emotionally involved and continue to try to 'save' little creatures. Sometimes more for our own benefit than for theirs. To know when to stop and make a decision to euthanise is the hardest aspect IMO.

[Tula_Montage]

It's too easy to get emotionally involved and continue to try to 'save' little creatures. Sometimes more for our own benefit than for theirs. To know when to stop and make a decision to euthanise is the hardest aspect IMO.

I know... I do tend to go into saviour syndrome, and most of the time it's to make ME feel better. The right descisions are always the hardest.

[diamondlil]

I know... I do tend to go into saviour syndrome, and most of the time it's to make ME feel better. The right descisions are always the hardest.

I certainly do go into 'saviour mode' too easily Elle, big hugs to you, losing little ones is never easy.

[Kazarus]

I think you miss the point. He was starving to death BECAUSE he was a non feeder despite trying every trick in the book AND assist feeding. Feeding issues have deffinatley been proven to be genetically inheritable (take the original strains of blood reds for example). I have no doubt whatsoever that I made the right descision. Not only was he a non feeder, he was having impaction problems and was too weak to push out his urates. Would you have left him to it and just waited to see if he got better or waited until he died? Because I know what the outcome would have been, and was not willing to let him suffer any longer.

I didn't miss the point at all, as I was not commenting on your particular choice in this instance. As it were, I was simply answering a question you asked. Maybe you meant it rhetorically, but when I see a question asking for opinions, and I happen to have one, I give it. I don't expect everyone to always agree, but I do expect the person to be civil and not get upset when they get an opinion when they asked for one, even if it wasn't one they wanted to hear.

In the end, I don't think you did anything wrong at all, and I'm not making judgments here. I was merely passing on evidence that is is possible to rescue a snake from the brink of death, as I've seen in my friend's case. And as you so adequately put it, I can't help but want to give them a chance.

...But thinking on it, would you want to send a fussy feeder out into the gene pool?...It's always such a tough descision to make, but when theres that glimmer of hope you can't help but want to just give them a chance :(

[Tula_Montage]

I didn't miss the point at all, as I was not commenting on your particular choice in this instance. As it were, I was simply answering a question you asked. Maybe you meant it rhetorically, but when I see a question asking for opinions, and I happen to have one, I give it. I don't expect everyone to always agree, but I do expect the person to be civil and not get upset when they get an opinion when they asked for one, even if it wasn't one they wanted to hear.

In the end, I don't think you did anything wrong at all, and I'm not making judgments here. I was merely passing on evidence that is is possible to rescue a snake from the brink of death, as I've seen in my friend's case. And as you so adequately put it, I can't help but want to give them a chance.

Until you PERSONALLY work with non feeder hatchlings and realise how heart breaking it is to FORCE them to stay alive for your own selfish reasons as I have done, then you cannot possibly pass judgment.

I am upset (don't dare tell me not to be), I have just let go something I considered very precious and VERY worthwhile. I would have put the effort in to keep him alive a thousand times over, but it was the best possible descision for this snake, especially concerning his inability to pass urates that were blocking his vent.

I gave this boy every chance in the world...

[Kazarus]

And to further clarify, your case was a non feeder. I think what you did was the right thing to do, with a non feeder. Your question, however, asked whether or not we think we should do the same with fussy or poor eaters, in which case I felt the need to reply that I would not.

My tale of my friend's snakes having a similar problem and making it through was there to give you hope that not all poor feeders are a lost cause. Some can make it through, and I hope the rest of your friends's do.

[Kazarus]

Until you PERSONALLY work with non feeder hatchlings and realise how heart breaking it is to FORCE them to stay alive for your own selfish reasons as I have done, then you cannot possibly pass judgment.

I am upset (don't dare tell me not to be), I have just let go something I considered very precious and VERY worthwhile. I would have put the effort in to keep him alive a thousand times over, but it was the best possible descision for this snake, especially concerning his inability to pass urates that were blocking his vent.

I gave this boy every chance in the world...

I understand what you're going through, so I'll try not to take your insulting tone offensively.

But please don't assume I haven't been through hell just because I'm not writing a book about my life story for everyone's reading pleasure.

I had a cat recently that got a respiratory infection. The first vet I brought it to told me the cat would be perfectly fine as long as I gave it antibiotics. That night my cat fell to its side and couldn't get up again. She kept crying, and it was 11pm at night and all the vets were closed. I drove 2 hours away to an emergency clinic, all the while holding one of her paws while she cried in my passenger seat and my girlfriend cried in the back seat.

I spent 7 hours at the place trying to hold things together. They finally told me there was nothing they could do, and I had to decide to kill a cat I've had for years. Without even going into the emotional trauma this caused both me and my girlfriend, it also cost me $800 to do it, when I could have just waited a few hours more for nature to take her away anyway. However, I chose to say goodbye to my cat to end her suffering, and pay the money that I would have spent on going back to school a few months later.

So please, tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. You'll notice, I hope, that if you reply to this, I'll not react in an insulting manner.

[Tula_Montage]

Lets not play who can tell the saddest sob story (slightly hypocritical that you chose to share the tragic tale of your cat). We have both experienced loss, and have made extremely tough descisions. I will not appologise for reacting in an emotional manner to your insensitivity on my thread.

I simply don't appreciate your condescending tone. I made my descision, and I need not justify it to anyone.

I simply do not see where I have insulted you in any way shape or forum. Unless you are interpretating my posts completely differently to how I mean? Then again you never can tell on the internet, theres simply no tone or calrity to words on a screen so I understand how you may have assumed wrongly...

[Kazarus]

Wow. You asked a question about whether or not we should kill fussy eaters, I said I wouldn't. You took that as me meaning we should not end the misery of non eaters. I corrected you, saying I thought you did the right thing and that I meant I was only giving my opinion on poor feeders. You said I couldn't judge because I didn't have personal experience. I gave my personal experience and you say I'm fishing for sympathy.

I wasn't being insensitive. I was answering a question you asked. While it's true I could have assumed wrong, it's hard to misunderstand a question mark. Perhaps such a question shouldn't have been placed in this thread if an answer wasn't wanted.

In any case, I haven't asked you to justify anything, as I haven't even claimed you've done anything wrong. In your place, I would have done the same thing. The only reason we're bickering is because you gave a heated/emotional response to me answering a question you asked. You don't have to apologize, you've just experienced something terrible. I understand, and we can let bygones be bygones.

[Tula_Montage]

My question was worded wrongly, as it was intended towards the snake I just euthanised. I asked a rhetorical question, although I understand why you wouldn't have known that. Merely musing about my descision.

I understand why you misinterpreted my "question". But I thought it would be rather obvious I was talking about the snake the thread was created in memorial for... *shrugs*

[Tula_Montage]

In an effort to simplify matters, I have reworded and highlighted in bold exactly what I meant by my rhetorical question, just to ensure there is no more confusion :)

[LBoz]

I know... I do tend to go into saviour syndrome, and most of the time it's to make ME feel better. The right descisions are always the hardest. (((Elle))) I haven't read the other posts because I wanted to base my post on what you alone wrote. You have far too much compassion for your animals to see this as an easy out. I'm sure this was a last resort for you, and with your experience, I'd never be one to judge or argue that point. I'm very sorry it came to this for the little one. I'm new to snakes, but not to animals. I am sure you did the right thing, albeit not the easy thing. Rest easy in the decision you had to make, Elle. ((((Elle))))

[Caryl]

Oh Elle, I'm sorry about your sad experience. You're right, it's never an easy decision to euthanize an animal, even when we KNOW it's the right decision. I'm sure this baby couldn't have been better off with anyone else. I'm sending hugs and prayers your way.

[*salAMANDA88*]

I don't think I'd kill something because of it being a poor feeder. I can understand if it's kinky though.

A friend of mine has horrible feeders. It was a struggle every time to get those two to eat. And then they eventually got better. And when they had babies, the babies ate fine. So I'm not really convinced issues with feeding are genetic mutations.

But hopefully they are, as I wouldn't want people to be killing their snakes just due to the fact that it's too much to give them the chance and work with them.

Yeah... I agree with this....Killing snakes with out giving them chances is pretty stupid....and I can't really see how being a stubborn eater is a genetic trait........?.....it just doesn't make any sense if you really think about it...but Thank you for trying your best...and I am sorry to hear about your loss...I'd be heat broken...just reading it made me sad..=(:crying:

[Rich in KY]

Sorry to hear about the wee lil guy, Elle :awcrap:

You gave him his best chance to make it

[Toshiro]

I'm sure you did all you could..
You can only try.

[Tula_Montage]

(((Elle))) I haven't read the other posts because I wanted to base my post on what you alone wrote. You have far too much compassion for your animals to see this as an easy out. I'm sure this was a last resort for you, and with your experience, I'd never be one to judge or argue that point. I'm very sorry it came to this for the little one. I'm new to snakes, but not to animals. I am sure you did the right thing, albeit not the easy thing. Rest easy in the decision you had to make, Elle. ((((Elle))))

Thank you very much. I feel better now this morning, after seeing his sister with a full tummy and Fetish the kinked anery mot stripe eating on her own. But then I think, both the babies that want to eat have spinal kinks, ahhhh what to do?!

Oh Elle, I'm sorry about your sad experience. You're right, it's never an easy decision to euthanize an animal, even when we KNOW it's the right decision. I'm sure this baby couldn't have been better off with anyone else. I'm sending hugs and prayers your way.

Thank you, euthanising an animal or losing an animal through natural causes is one of the worst things in life for me. I just get to attached, more than I should. I just can't help but feel an over wealming sense of love and compassion for animals (far more than people).

Yeah... I agree with this....Killing snakes with out giving them chances is pretty stupid....and I can't really see how being a stubborn eater is a genetic trait........?.....it just doesn't make any sense if you really think about it...but Thank you for trying your best...and I am sorry to hear about your loss...I'd be heat broken...just reading it made me sad..=(:crying:

I don't think anyone euthanises non/poor feeders without giving them a chance. Otherwise how would you know they were poor/non feeders?

It is common practise to euthanise hatchlings that refuse to feed after the breeder/seller decides it's had enough chances. These wee creatures can't go long without food and force/assist feeding is extremely stressful for them. Somtimes it's just not meant to be.

Sorry to hear about the wee lil guy, Elle :awcrap:

You gave him his best chance to make it

Thanks Rich. My friend still has more non feeders that I really want to take off her as she just doesn't have the time. But then I think can I go through working so hard with them to only lose them?

I'm sure you did all you could..
You can only try.

I tried my bestest...

[strawberry_bunny]

*Big hugs* I know it sucks, but it would suck more to wathc him continue to suffer