Please Help: Snake with Possible Broken Vertebrae

[Lyreiania]

Hello all...
Im at a loss here and any and all advice would be extremely welcome. The day before yesterday I noticed a bi-lateral swelling about one half down the length of my snakes body (snake is a 6 foot long rat snake hybrid, about 13 years old, Ive had him since he was a baby). Yesterday it was still there, so I took him to my vet, who is a reptile specialist. X Rays show a possible broken or dislocated vertebrae. My veterinarian is not a radiologist so he is sending the films to one so they can be properly interpreted. I dont know when the results will be in.

I have no idea how this happened. To the best of my knowledge he did not fall, nor did anything fall on him, and he certainly hasnt been mishandled. He does work with a belly dancer and she did use him in a show before I noted this, but he was NOT mishandled during the event.

Hes in his aquarium, a 135 gallon enclosure, all curled up, quite still, barely moves when I check to make sure if he is OK (alive). Of course Im not moving him.

Has anyone ever had this happen? What will his prognosis be? Any advice or help here will be VERY welcome; (should he be splinted? CAN a snake be splinted? Should he be in that large cage but I dont want to move him considering the possible dx of a fractured vertebrae) I love all my pets and Im horrified that he was injured so inexplicably. I cant prevent in the future if I dont know what happened!

Thanks alot in advance,
Sincerely,
Susan
PS: he ate normally Oct 1st, (4 large mice) he is to be fed Oct 15th, we shall see what he eats or doesnt eat.

[LBoz]

OMGosh, I haven't a shred of experience with anything like that, but I am sending you the very best wishes for the improvement/health of your poor snake. I'm wondering if there was a birth deformity in his spine that you weren't aware of? I mean, I'm sure most people don't just x-ray their snakes with a routine physical, right, so how would one know? I'm hoping the poor guy isn't in a lot of pain. How long before you'll get the radiology results back? Did the vet offer any chance of correcting the issue?

Very best of luck to you. Please keep us posted. ((((Hugs))))

[Lyreiania]

Hi Lori...
Id never seen anything like that before on him; if it was congenital youd think Id would have been aware of it years ago. However, it doesnt seem to HURT him, when the vet palpated it he didnt pull away or show aggression or make any move I would call indicative of pain or discomfort. And at the vet I did see him move his body BELOW the area, so maybe he doesnt have nerve damage. Im just so upset that my snake was hurt so mysteriously. I want him to be OK, and hope he will heal completely.
Thanks for the good thoughts,
Sincerely
Susan

[bitsy]

One of my Corns suffered some horrible crush injuries to his spine and ribs. I couldn't explain them until I came home one day and found that he was trying to jam himself in between the tiny gap of the sliding glass doors (full grown Corn -> 3 millimetre gap = you do the math!).

He still has a stomach-churningly distorted skeletal structure in his top third, but a few years on shows no sign of discomfort at all, is perfectly happy to be handled and eats like a champ (needless to say he's in a top-opening viv now!). My vet reckoned that as long as there was no sign of paralysis, then he'd be fine and would heal without intervention - and this has proven true.

They really can do the most ridiculous things to themselves.

In your case, I doubt that he could be splinted, but then he may not need to be. As long as he's able to move about and eat, then he could well be fine - just a bit lumpy from now on.

Make sure that he has nothing higher than a piece of cork bark in his tank, just in case you too have a kamikaze stunt snake!

Keep us posted on what the radiographer and vet say - good luck.

[Lyreiania]

Hi Bitsy and all...
Thanks for your replies. Ive still not gotten the report from the radiologist; truthfully that annoys me. I called my vet today, they are to call me back. On the good side, when I fed him 10/16, he ate his 4 large mice and a few days later have a normal stool. However (I havent been holding him of course) he moves...odly. I dont know if there is neurological damage. I cant quite explain the oddity either. I am still worried about my guy. What if the X Rays show something that needs care? But then again, in broken ribs on a person, there is no real treatment; a snake essentially is a huge ribcage...but if its his back, I dont know what can be done, if anything. CAN a snake with a broken back have a few vertebrae fused together surgically as humans do?

I will continue the updates...
Sincerely,
Susan

[SnakeCreations]

They really can do the most ridiculous things to themselves.

No truer statement.... Unbelievable the things they get into or try to get out of.

Good to hear that he's eating/pooping well, a good sign for sure. I hope you hear from your vet soon....

Tonya

[Rich in KY]

Although I have no direct experience like this, I have heard of snakes with spine injuries recovering. I hope things turn out well for your old guy. Keep us updated on what the vet and radiologist say.

[Lyreiania]

Hello all...
An update on my poor snake. He DOES indeed have a fracture of his spine; I am really so upset at not knowing HOW he did this. He is in his cage, and of course Im not handling him or moving him at all. He, however, doesnt seem to realize he has a severe injury and is moving around his cage and scaring the heck out of me in the process.

I suppose thats a good sign. I wish hed stay still, though.

I took out many of the cage decorations (climbing sticks). I found a big box and put it in his tank and hes happily curled there, he hasnt seemed interested in his old hiding place since the injury. Maybe its too small for him now, he certainly has not coiled as tightly as once he did.

Im waiting for the X Rays; my vet said hed email me them. I will post it here of course for anyone to look at and opine as they wish.

Thats it for now...they are all due to be fed on the 31st and I will write again then with his diet or lack of it.

Sincerely,
Lyre

[Nanci]

Well, so now what? What does the vet say you are supposed to do???

[Lyreiania]

Hi Nanci....
Thats such a good question!! Part of my frustration is the total lack of anything I can DO to help him in healing.

My vet said to leave him in his cage, disturbing him as little as possible. Only touching/ moving to clean.

In 6 weeks, he will be Re X RAYed to see if healing of the bones has occured.

I know in a human, bones broken and unset will heal, in the unset position. I guess thats all I can hope for...Dr Raiti said snakes are not splinted, and as far as I know they are not operated upon like humans are if their spines are fractured (vertebral fusion). I asked about calcium supplements, he said none were needed as the mice he eats have plenty of calcium in their bones.

My vet. is a reptile specialist; I have to assume he knows what he is talking about. But if any of you have any ideas I will be more than willing to try em.

Sincerely,
Susan

[Nanci]

Well, I had a pigeon break his leg (an he only has one leg!) and the vet didn't splint it or pin it or anything- he was just on cage rest.

[SnakeCreations]

I had a one and a half year old snake get an injury from an over excited puppy to see the snake on the floor. It was unfortunate, really broke my heart. And my daughter was mortified. The snakes back "looked" broken to me and she moved rather funny. I took her to the vet who told me that there is nothing she can do, to put it on 'cage rest'. That happened over a year ago and it's hard to tell that there is anything wrong with her today... it was shocking how well she healed. I always felt that as long as she ate, drank and pooped? She was fine. And she is. :D

Look, if they can't splint it and your snake is eating well... what is the point of another xray??

Good luck with your snake.... !!

-Tonya

[vetusvates]

When I was young, I used to herp in woods and creeks liberally interspersed in heavily farmed country. Bush-hogs, hay-bailers, cows, wild pigs, deer, coyotes,...all heck on snakes. I have caught at least one of each of the four listed above with a healed injury that must have brought death near. Broken backs healed slightly twisted, slightly displaced upwards, to the left, or to the right. Some healed at a really clumsy-looking longitudinal angle. Some that even looked like the snake had been...maybe...pulled or stretched or longitudinally dislocated somehow.
So I did a little research at the time (late 1970's/early 80's--I know y'all would like some references...sorry), and snakes (like many reptiles in general) have an amazing capacity to survive and heal from, yes, a broken back. What is limp and dragged around will in time heal and be fully functional. (Have even seen alligators with very mangled tails living to a ripe old giant dangerous age.)
I guess this might relate to distant cousins growing tails back after ejecting them.
One would think this area would be a subject of research (and likely has been). "Healing" of spinal cord injuries, once studied, could improve the quality of life for a lot of people. (Truly I have googled nothing....but am going to as soon as I finish typing this.)

So...pamper your baby, and let him/her heal. (We humans all get scars, broken bones, and a little arthritis as we get older--but we're still the same people.)
Good Luck.

[vetusvates]

Reptiles and amphibians don't experience touch or temperature sensation the way we do. They don't feel cold the way we do, or heat the way we do. It is my understanding that they don't feel pain the way we do either. I once caught a Western Ribbon Snake feeding on minnows in a creek--that a bush-hog had cut in two. Just anterior to the anal vent. Kind of swollen down there, and sure to bring on eventual physical death...but the ribbon snake didn't seem to distracted from his focus on the minnows by the fact that he'd essentially been cut in half at some point over the last couple of days.

[Lyreiania]

Hello Tonya and Vestusvates (Eric)
Thank you so much for your kind and encouraging words. I would re X Ray him only to know that it was safe once again to hold him, to take him out of his cage and pet him and have him be petted by others. Hes done a bit of animal modeling and has made a pretty damn good living for a reptile. Hes also very used to alot of affection; now I am scared even to touch him.

Eric, what you said about snake injuries also made me feel LOTS better. I can still see the lump on his back, and its quite prominent though it appears unchanged. I am worried about him, and I hope he heals as well as the snakes you mentioned. He does seem able to move below the level of the injury.

I am worried, and dont know how worried I should be. He was scheduled to eat today, and he only ate ONE large mouse; his normal is four every two weeks. Truthfully, ALL my snakes appetites were off today, ALL of them ate far less than their usual, so I dont know if all the snakes had an off day, or something has gone horridly wrong with my injured boy. On the good side, as yet he hasnt thrown up, its been hours.

Should I be concerned? This is a snake that is pretty far from being thin. Im not new to snakes, Ive had this one over 10 years, but Ive never had an severely injured snake before.

Thanks again for your kind thoughts and words,
Sincerely,
Susan

[vetusvates]

We're all here to help (as many have done for me).
The digestive process, as for all organisms with a forward opening and a rear opening, involves peristaltic muscular movement from anterior to posterior. If your snake's back is broken, 1) his ability to chemically and physically digest may be impaired/slowed by the injury; and 2) a full gullet would probably be very uncomfortable, physicaly stressing/stretching/displacing the injury.
I suspect he is not as active as normal, so he probably doesn't need as many calories. He knows best. His own, I would bet, disinclination toward being extremely active is just what will allow him to heal. The site of the break will likely remain conspicuous for the rest of his life. Just a cosmetic imperfection.
But for more primitive vertebrates, for example cold-blooded ones like snakes, physical resilience is often inversely proportional to specialization, like more sophisticated mammals.

[SnakeCreations]

Reptiles and amphibians don't experience touch or temperature sensation the way we do. They don't feel cold the way we do, or heat the way we do. It is my understanding that they don't feel pain the way we do either.

For anyone who's caught his snakes tail in the lid may disagree? Is it being captured or pinched? I gotta say my snakes respond very differently to my restraining them to my getting em in the lid.

either way... with my girl I gauged my handling and the duration by her response.

Good Luck!

Tonya

[Rich in KY]

I think it is a good sign that he ate at all.

I will continue to send good thoughts for you and your snakie!

[vetusvates]

Actually I'm surprised he ate at all. He could certainly go for weeks/months without having to. That he did, in my opinion is a superb sign. Doubly so--that his injury is not so serious, and that his zeal to hold onto life is strong.

[Lyreiania]

Hi Eric, Tonya and Rich...
Im glad you think him eating anything at all is a positive sign. But this is actually his second meal since the injury...it happened Oct 10th. On the 16th he ate his 4 mice, but today he only ate one. Thats why I wonder if it means he has some odd new injury or some such. I know, Im likely being paranoid here but the snake cant tell me what hurts like a human can.

Sincerely,
Susan

[diamondlil]

Sounds like he's on the road to recovery, (gentle) hugs to him!

[measley]

I agree, the fact that he ate at all seems like good news, and like someone said earlier, he just may not be using enough calories to need the 4 mice right now.

It sounds like he's going to be ok... I'm pulling for him!

[kathylove]

I am glad you had a reptile vet who was able to help you. Maybe the snake crawled up the side of the cage, and fell over onto a piece of cage furniture? They do that all the time, but if he hit something "just right" (or just wrong!), maybe it caused the injury? He is in a bigger cage than most rats / corns live in, so maybe he had a little extra room to fall? If he had a preexisting condition (maybe congenital), then maybe a small injury caused it, something that would not have caused such an injury without a prior problem? This is all just speculation - your vet would be far more qualified to hazard a guess than I am.

I agree with the others - if a corn / rat is eating and digesting properly, it is an EXCELLENT sign that they don't feel too badly. Feeding / digesting is usually the first thing to decline whenever they suffer ANY health problem. The fact that he ate less than usual (as your other snakes did) may mean he is less active, or it may mean that it is almost winter in NY, lol! Even if you keep heat on them, they usually still know!

Also, the fact that he can move normally throughout his body, and that he doesn't seem to have any pain or impairment other than the protrusion, bodes very well for his recovery, in my opinion. I believe you said that you moved him to a smaller cage. Just on the slim chance that he is prone to falling and injuring himself in the future, it might be good to keep him in a shorter cage, and only allow climbing while out and supervised by you.

BTW, my own experience with pain in snakes is kind of strange - on one hand, if I have to pinch their tails a little, perhaps while removing dead skin, they seem very sensitive. OTOH, if I pinch a tail in deli lid (I feed all f/t pinks in deli cups, and OCCASIONALLY have caught a tail - yuck!) , while they may thrash around for a minute or two, just as often they quietly EAT their pink, and patiently wait for me to come and release them, without any sign of pain.

When I have had to use a large gauge needle to aspirate egg contents, the females will sometimes flinch a little, but very often, they hardly seem to notice. I have seen various wounds over the years, and the snake usually does pull away when it is treated, but they often don't seem to react as strongly as a mammal does with the same type of wound.

Sure hope your snake does well, and comes out with nothing worse than a minor cosmetic imperfection. Keep us updated, and let us know if the vet has any new info for you. Good luck!

[Lyreiania]

Hi Kathy...
Thank you so so much for your kind words on my poor injured boy. Coming from you it meant alot. Can I say I have your book or would that be just too....corny? <grins at her pun>

He is moving, though it is sometimes VERY odd. A few times I have found him in what seemed impossible positions for a snake to assume...he was almost in a knot, and part of the tangle had him flipped so his belly was on top, and the angles...it looked like a sadist animal abuser had crumpled him and bent him in ways that were just against nature. It was very distressing and I have to confess I helped him (gently) assume a more natural pose. It looked like the pose HE was in would break even MORE vertebrae. At times he does seem to have issues with mobility, even ABOVE the level of the injury. Ive seen him move oddly sideways, like a drunken sidewinder snake.

He defacated today and I found him LYING in it. I had to move him to clean him and the cage. I didnt like that. I know my vet wanted to re X Ray in 4-6 weeks, which will be endish of November. I will likely give it 8 weeks to give the healing more time (and casts are left on people for 8 weeks).

I guess I will make up my own snake physical therapy after the re X Ray. Hes used to having floor time (supervised freedom in my living room) so I guess I can do that and encourage movement or mobility.

Im not so sure he will be neurologically intact now, but Im hoping it wont be too bad.

Susan

[kathylove]

It does sound a little less promising. Maybe he will have some neurological damage. But some or all may heal. I have had corns exhibit neurological damage from toxins (No Pest Strips, many years ago). If it didn't kill them outright, then I would usually see a slow recovery for at least some of the symptoms. But of course, this is not the same thing, although the damage could be similar. I guess there is not much to be done except for the best, supportive, nursing care that you can give.

Hope it works out ok!

[Lyreiania]

Hi Kathy and all...
Today I saw clear incontrovertible signs that my boy has some degree of neurological damage.

I had leftover mice from another snake, so offered them to Maitreya (the injured one). He ATE them, 2 small mice, so that was good...

But the damage I saw was that after he ate, he defacated. And he could not lift his tail like normal snakes do. He only managed to raise it slightly, and he had difficulties in expelling the feces...but he did it, obviously with an effort. And I see him moving, and that back half of his is dragging somewhat.

So...what do you all think? He eats, so hes not in pain. But is it ETHICAL to leave a rather large 6 and a half foot snake alive who seems half paralysed? He does manage to move around, though with difficulty...will he strengthen his front half to accomodate his back half's weakness?

My vet (through the secratary) says bring him in again for a re-exam. I dont think thats a good idea as hes supposed to stay still. I cant help HIS choice to move, but I can certainly not add to the potential damage. And its not like there is anything that the vet CAN DO. IF there was an intervention, that would be one thing. But as far as I know, there isnt.

So, thats where I am now, and he is.
At least he ate.
Sincerely,
Susan

[Lyreiania]

OK....
Im really irritated. Had a long conversation with my veterinarians secratary regarding the impairment I saw and the futility of bringing him to a vet when the vet couldnt do much if anything. Long and short of it is that she says the vet, after an neurological exam, can prescribe "an anti-inflammatory". Again I reiterate how I think moving him after a broken spine is just a LOUSY idea and why, since I am saying there are now clear signs of impairment we just cant give this anti inflamatory a try without the exam which I think is so risky and dangerous? He, she says, will refuse to even SPEAK to me, and certainly wont prescribe a medication over the phone without an exam.

On one hand, I understand that, somewhat. Im a nurse myself, and good practice IS actually to not prescribe by telephone. BUT, the snake IS severely injured, and my vet does know I am a nurse, well aware of medical stuff. The secratary said my vet wouldnt have asked me to bring him in if he didnt think it was safe. The impairment is clear to me. EVERY nerve in my body along with my medical training says its NOT safe to move him. Im not asking for a narcotic, here, after all. Im asking for what he said...a simple anti inflamatory, and given this situation in this setting I think he should tell me what to use, over the phone. (Its probably prednisone, Im betting...but I have no idea of its dosage on a snake).

So...unbiased folks...am I right to be upset and angry at the vet? Am I wrong? Opinions are welcome. At this point I am so mad I could think of a new veterinarian...but mine is a reptile expert. He did literally write the book (ok, a book) on reptillian veterinary care.

Sincerely,
Susan

[Nanci]

Well, do you love him? If he isn't in pain, and he's getting around, and he's eating and pooping, are you willing to keep him in that condition, if he doesn't get better?

I have a bird with one leg, which is paralyzed, who doesn't fly, but still eats and gets around his rather spacious enclosure, who is able to look out the window all day for entertainment, who comes out every evening to watch TV with me. The vet agrees that he still has a nice quality of life, though 99% of bird keepers would have had him PTS a long time ago. If I am lucky, he will be with me another ten years.

But- how do you tell what a snake's quality of life is? Can they even be said to enjoy life at all? Which is why I ask if you love him- do you get pleasure from his company? Would you miss him terribly if he was gone?

I also have a kinked snake who has some diminished movement in her lower third to half. At the beginning, she would drag the last half of herself. She still climbs and swims and does everything a normal snake would do. Eats and sheds normally. I've never seen her poo, but she does it. Lately, she seems to be gaining strength down there, and can coil her tail, and now grips me with it. She now appears to be moving the lower half when she crawls, though she does list to one side a little bit.

For her, I decided that since she is the most active of all my snakes, and is always busy doing something, as long as she is eating and shedding and pooping without a problem, she has the right to live. If I and my vet decide that she is suffering, then she will be PTS. But I waited a LONG time for this particular result of a breeding, and she is fun to watch, and now big enough to come out and handle, and I get a lot of pleasure from her- she always makes me smile.

[Nanci]

Well, I _do_ work in x-ray, and see people with broken spines walking around all the time. It depends on if the fracture is stable. But- your snake has a neurological deficit- so _is_ the fracture stable? I don't really understand why he won't talk to you on the phone to reassure you that it is safe to bring him in...If you switch vets, you probably aren't going to get away without bringing him in for an initial exam, anyway.

[Kokopelli]

Lyreiania first allow me to say that I am sorry your beloved snake may be ill.
I would like to add a few things if that's alright.

First and foremost, the fact that you're a nurse does allow you to understand some things better than most people.
However, were you aware that snakes are extremely susceptible to extreme liver damage when receiving meds because their liver is very sensitive?
Even the most minor of doses should be properly applied and diluted with a lot of fluids.
Also, it is quite possible that the side effects of the medication he had in mind were dangerous unto themselves and can cause serious damage if given in under certain conditions? I doubt he had anything but the wellfare of the snake in mind- even if only it's the byproduct of maintaining his own liability.
Also, you can't really know how many people try to speak to him directly all day long. It is quite possible that he was simply busy, or was forced to create said policy.

On a different note, sometimes the nerve system manages to slowly recover itself. It's never quite the same, and it doesn't always happen- but it does sometime happen. For instance, a good friend of mine had his male Guinea Rainbow Boa slipped his head out of his cage and someone accidentally closed the glass terrarium door on his neck. At first he was totally paralyzed- but lo and behold, he is now a father to two generations of little baby boas, and he moves about- sure, he can't move to the left, but he's alive and well.
If he eats, defecates and does not respond violently to being touched( that's a good sign to know that you're hurting them) I think you should allow him to try and recover on his own.

It's a crappy situation to have to deal with though, I am really sorry.

[kathylove]

I am so sorry that you and your snake have to go through this. But I have seen recovery and partial recovery from some fairly bad neurological symptoms, although it may take quite a long time. So I have to agree that if he doesn't seem in pain, and is living relatively normally (eating, drinking, defecating, etc), then you should give him as much time as possible to evaluate him at a later date.

I can't really speak to the vet policy as I don't know everything about the situation. But I was also a nurse many years ago, and even back then, liability was always an important issue to be concerned with, as I am sure you are well aware. For the doctor (human or animal), then liability is even a greater concern than it is for the nurse.

[Lyreiania]

Hi Nanci, Kathy, Kokopelli,
Thank you all so much for your words and thoughts. I DO love him and would be miserable without him; that, however is no excuse to keep a creature alive who is suffering. Kindness would be to end such a life; selfishness would be to continue it, I feel. Fortunately, I see NO signs that my snake is suffering.

He continues to eat and poop. He also seems to have a bit more use of his body distal to the fracture site. I have been working with him...massaging the tail and encouraging use, and it seems to be helping. He is big enough that I CAN work with his tail and lower third without affecting or disturbing the site of the fracture in any way, shape or form. When I massage him, he contracts his muscles, and at times can arch his back. At times when I massage him distal to that fracture he slithers, sort of. He responds more to firm touch than to light touch. He seems to have lost the ability to fully slither but when I work with him hes better at it. He gets around his cage though, and its a big one (135 gallons). At times he will tie himself in a knot, however. I help him gently out of it. He flipped his tail today, so he does have abilities....seeming better towards his tail which makes no sense. He just needs aggressive snake physical therapy, which I am trying to improvise. (Any ideas??) If only I could take him out of his cage, Id have him swim in the bathtub.

Thanks for all your ideas, and thoughts...and I will keep you all updated on his continuing progress.

Sincerely,
Susan

[Darcpixie]

I may be incorrect, but as far as i knew, when nerves are damaged, the WHOLE nerve has to die, and is then rebuilt, bit by bit, over the course of months. THEN, once it is rebuilt, continued attempts at usage will train the brain on how to USE that nerve again.

So, with it being a relatively recent injury... I would continue to give him time. He sounds like he's still BEHAVING like a snake, and with normal, everyday activity, his brain will be forced into learning how to use any repaired nerves over time.

With how easy it is for snakes to go off feed when stressed, I think the fact that he's eating, pooping, and moving around would be a good indicator that he's not in a significant, that is to say insurmountable, amount of pain.

Hang in there, both of you. Calm, non-jarring vibes being sent your way. :)

[Lyreiania]

Hello all....
Ive finally recieved the emailed X RAY. Here it is, the displacement is clear to me even though Im no radiologist. Any opinions on HOW this might have happened judging from the X RAY are more than welcome. Prognosis guesses based on the X Ray are more than welcome also. I THINK I uploaded this but the image isnt showing.
Susan

[Nanci]

My first thought is a crush injury from above. Nice film!

[Darcpixie]

Does it look to anyone else like it's knitting, a little?

Very nice film... hang in there guys!

[Lyreiania]

Nanci,
Thanks for your input; you are the second one to say it seems like a crush injury (first person, a neurologist/ surgeon for humans wondered if he was stepped on). From what you see, how severe is this break? To ME it looks devastating; quite severe but I am not a radiologist. From what you see, what do you feel a prognosis may be? I know its only a guess on your part. DID it sever or touch the spinal nerve, you think?

Anyways, I thank you for your input...do you think he can heal from this now youve seen the extent of the damage? And is it actually as bad I think it looks?

Darcpixie, this X ray was taken the day after I noticed the injury (oct 11) so there shouldnt be bone knitting...Dr Raiti said it looked like a new break. If however you meant knitting as in actually knitting with yarn, yeah, I can kind of see that in the pattern of the ribs and vertebrae. As a nurse, I do appreciate the interest of a unique X Ray, as my snakes MOMMY, Im horrified. <smiles>
Thank you for your input as well :)

Sincerely,
Susan

[bitsy]

If it's any consolation, my Pumpkin's X-rays looked much worse than that - a whole series of displaced vertebrae, with broken ribs to add to the mix. My vet also asked me if I'd stepped on him.

As for prognosis, I really think that only time will tell. As has been said before, the fact that he's eating is a reasonable indicator that he's not in distress. Refusal to feed is a major sign of a problem, which yours doesn't have.

My vet was philosophical, and said that he'd seen Corns lead what otherwise seemed to be normal lives, with much worse skeletal damage that he saw in mine (and that was stomach-churning).

My guess is that yours has tried to jam himself underneath/in-between something, like my dimwit beastie did. Has he tried to lift the lid of the tank? Are there any heavy hides in with him? Did he try to squeeze between sliding glass doors?

The problem is, until/unless you catch him at it (like I did), you'll never know for sure.

[Nanci]

My (human) radiologist says the severity of the injury is judged by neurological deficit- so movement/feeling below the level of the injury is a good sign, however, the "lines" of the spine (how all the aspects of one vertebrae sitting on top of another flow in an imaginary line) are interrupted and not smooth, and he wonders if bone fragments are impinging upon the spinal canal from above.

This shows "lines" in a human cervical spine.

http://tinyurl.com/5l2lv3

[Lyreiania]

Hi all...
I have another X Ray for your perusal. And Im deeply appreciative of all the support guidance and encouragement Ive had from all whove replied. It certainly does make this easier knowing you all are here. I hope I can one day repay all your kindnesses.

The break is clear here but the other view is better. Im horrified at the injury, but what a beautiful and intricate thing nature is...this X Ray is quite lovely in its symetry...aside from the fracture. Snake is the same. I have to take him water so he can drink...his mobility issues are showing, though he does react to my touch (well distal to the break, of course).
Sincerely,
Susan

[Nanci]

I wonder if he got stuck and pulled??

Well, my little kinked snake who graduated to fuzzies tonight says 'You have to give him a chance!!!"

[Lyreiania]

Hi all...
An update on my beautiful boy. He ate 11/15, 3 small mice. And yesterday he was doing sort of well, neurologically.

Today, however, I came home and he was wrapped in one of his Gordian knots (he can only move part way, so moves, gets stuck, picks a different direction, same thing happens and he winds up in multiple tight helixes that I help him out of). And, his neurologic function seems WELL diminished from yesterday. Immediately past the fracture he seems to have a blind area thats not mobile at all, not new...but towards the tail he responds somewhat better which makes NO sense in any way shape or form. That is unchanged, but it now takes stronger stimuli to get a response. I have been working with him way past the site to make sure his muscles dont atrophy and he doesnt get clots. Ive not moved the fracture site at all in this.

I consulted with another reptile vet (by phone) who said its possible the snake has something degenerative, maybe caused by bacteria who chew up the spine (sort of the same way strep bacteria can affect the heart valves and kidneys in humans). She wants to X Ray the whole snake to see if she can detect evidence of this, and said creative bracing may be in order depending on what X Rays show. To X Ray the whole snake...thats over 6 feet of snake!

Im worried his rapid change from yesterday means a fast descent downhill for my poor boy. I dont know if I should take him in to see this other vet tomorrow or later this coming week because I know there is little to nothing that can be done. Hes an older snake, so hes not a great surgical candidate, for sure.

I also dont want an animal suffering. The question is, how does anyone know when a snake suffers? He SEEMS bright and alert still. Drinks water when I offer (he has a low dish near him, but seems to like the personal touch more)I just dont know what to do. I feel like a horrid snake parent because my pet was injured and Ive not a clue how it happened. Ockhams razor (simplest explanation is likliest) suggests he was injured when I had him in his travel bag, and my attention elsewhere.

Im devastated if he was harmed due to my negligence even though I believed him to be safe where he was. And I certainly took him to seek medical care immediately, so one can say it wasnt negligence but I dont know. Maybe Im just beating myself up here for no good reason.

Advice? Comments? Thank you all much,
Sincerely,
Susan

[Nanci]

Can he get around by himself?

[Lyreiania]

Hi Nanci...
No, he cant get around effectively by himself. He drags himself some, but he manages to tie himself in knots more often.

When I work with him, he can move somewhat better. On his own, though, he forms a knot. And that cant be good for his vertebrae either.

Sincerely,
Susan

[measley]

I'm so sorry this is happening to you... I don't know too much about snake health so can't offer you much advice in that area but I just wanted to say that I'm hoping for the best and it sounds like you're a great mommy to him...

Good luck

[Lyreiania]

Measley,
Thank you so much for your kind wishes and thoughts on my boy. I wish I felt better about the situation...and I know to even the best of "parents" the unforeseen happens, but its so hard when its MY pet.

Thanks again,
Susan

[Rich in KY]

Having an injured pet is never easy.

You seem to doing the best that you can under the circumstances.

I hope this new vet is able to do something creative to help.

[Lyreiania]

Hello to all,
Thank you all so much for your past kindnesses. Here is an update on my boy, and ANY advice would be MOST welcome.

He had a re XRAY of his broken spine Dec 18th, (original injury Oct 10th) and the X RAY showed a NON healing fracture. Apparently, for a good healthy callous to form, the bone ends must be touching...in his case, there seems to be a displaced bone floating, and so since no contact, no healing.

He has weakness past that fracture site, its VERY hard for him to get around though with difficulty, he can. He seems to be lost in space at times...its hard to explain but his movements are so bizzare, and many times now since the vet appointment I find him belly up (which causes momentary panic I tell you!!). I help him gently to right himself. He seems somewhat frustrated during those times but his disposition remains friendly.

He still eats regularly, and passess stool seemingly without a problem. He can drink as well, but he needs low bowls to reach his water.

I dont think he can be left like this...what do you all say? If he has a floating displaced bone, it can move and further injure his already injured spinal cord. Im thinking of suggesting the possibility of a bone graft? If there needs to be contact to get it to heal, stick a segment of bone in the gap...make sense to anyone else?

Its so heartbreaking for me to see my beloved snake struggling. I dont believe he is SUFFERING though. I wish to gods I knew how the break occured. I cant post the new X Ray as its not in a JPEG format or any other familar one.

Any ideas? Advice? Suggestions? Anyone have anything similar?

Sincerely,
Susan

[Nanci]

Do they bone graft snakes? I guess my answer hasn't changed. If YOU get enjoyment out of him, the way he is, and if HE is eating, drinking, pooping- give it more time and hope for the best. He might, probably will, end up being a special needs snake for the rest of his life. However, he might recover. Stranger things have happened. I am sure, though, if you were just tired of the struggle, no one would fault you in putting him to sleep, either. Take comfort in the fact that he doesn't remember what it was like before. He just knows what it is, now. He hasn't given up. He isn't worried about tomorrow. He's just living his life, as it is. And you are helping him.

[vetusvates]

Susan, I agree 100% with Nanci. Breath deeply and embrace the fact that you just may have a special needs snake. Or if his health, and quality of life, seem to be declining consider a comfortable pleasant end. I know sentiment and love for your snake does not make it easy, but at some point the cost/benefit ratio for your pleasure/satisfaction will/may kick in.

I would think a bone graft would involve a significant period of a splint and 100% immobilization. And then there is the cost, and finding a vet willing to do it.
I obviously don't have a solid answer, but I encouraged you before,...and I just can't seem to abandon you now, as I have been following your ups and downs with your snake.
Good luck with some tough decisions. And keep us posted.

[Lyreiania]

Hello Nanci and Vestuvates...
LOL. I am breathing deeply and trying to be calm and take a zen approach. However whats preventing me is the thought/concept and idea of a floating piece of bone in my poor snakes back. I envision it bobbing up and down and to and fro and side to side, within his body, and wonder what it will do, and when will it completely sever his spinal colum? Can it float away and rupture an organ?

Euthanizing isnt in the picture at all. I am very good at knowing when the time comes to put suffering animals out of their misery, and my snake is NOT suffering. He eats, and a suffering snake wont do that. He is friendly; were he in pain hed try to bite me when I pet him, and when Ive righted him when he was upside down and in knots. He just is a bit sensitive around the direct area of the fracture.

Im having more a problem with the mental image of the break and what it signifies. That I know I have to discuss with my vet to truly know if my fears are groundless. I also DO hate and get depressed looking at his seeming struggles to move, but thats no valid or legitamate reason to kill him.

I must say the coldly detached clinical part of me, the part that says "what a cool X RAY" when she looks at it...that part of me is fascinated by this snakes seeming capacity to LEARN. He has figured out if he braces the part of himself that works, movement is alot easier. So he uses the side of the glass, a cage decoration, one of the water dishes. It IS interesting to see this animal learn, and it shows that even animals we dont associate learning and intellect with, can learn and figure out their environment.

Thanks for both of your kind words, Im grateful to you both.

Sincerely,
Susan

[iLuvScooter]

Hi Susan,

I'm new to the site, and new to having a snake (Scooter!), but I read your thread with interest and the hope that everything would work out ok. I have to agree with the others that if your snake doesn't seem to be in pain and is managing to get around, then it would be a shame to end his life.

Also, this might sound ignorant, but are snakes' brains the same as mammals, ie, with a left and right hemisphere? If there's a "malfunction" on one side, the other side will eventually take over the behavior in many/most cases, right? And it sounds like your baby is adjusting to the situation. You'll just have to keep helping him when he gets knotted up, I guess.

Sending gentle hugs and energy to both of you.

[ghosthousecorns]

I have had to put down a snake with neurological damage after trying to nurse him back to health for months and it was very hard to do, but it was a quality of life decision in the end. I don't want to seem harsh here. but to me it does seem like it might be kinder to euthanize him especially if he seems to be getting worse instead of better... I know he is eating and pooping, but I really do not think snakes express pain in a way that is easily recognizable like other animals. The snake dragging itself around would be a big signal to me that the time had come to let go.. I'd also worry about the stress it is causing every time he ties himself in the knots or flips over and can't get himself upright. I'm very sorry.

[Lyreiania]

Hi Scooter and Jen...
Thanks for your words as well. Scooter, congratulations on your new snake!!! I wish you many years of happiness with him <smiles>. You are correct; in mammals at least, if one hemisphere of the brain has damage, the other side (with physical therapy help) CAN in some cases assume the duties of the other side. That is felt to play a role in the recovery of stroke victims.

However, my snakes damage doesn't lie within his brain. His brain, such as it is, functions well. The injury is in his spinal cord. There is nothing for the brain to "take over" here.

Jen, thank you for your perspective as well. I agree, if its a quality of life issue I would have him euthanized. I think its selfish and immoral to keep a pet alive when that pets existence is one of misery and despair. However at this point its not. I share your concern about his stress when he flips over or ties himself in a knot, at times he gives the impression of frustration... but that doesn't seem to be doing HARM. If one day it did, I would act.

A snake that eats, says my veterinarian, isn't suffering. If he were in pain, he really would be vicious and hostile when I had to un-knot him...and he is neither.

The snake's movement disorder isn't a reason for me to euthanize, all other things being normal as they are.

Thanks again for your perspective, I really do appreciate it and I also respect you for saying something that you had a feeling would not be favorably received.

Sincerely,
Susan

[ghosthousecorns]

I am usually not too shy about speaking up, rather I may need to work on keeping big trap shut. I really didn't want to seem mean. Thanks for understanding my perspective, I was a bit afraid my post would offend you. . I do hope the snake will recover or at least improve.

[RustyTavern]

what is the resolution?

[Dragonling]

:face_palm_02: This thread is a DECADE old. Go to the vet.