frozen to live

[Mark16]

Hello, i got my cornsnake about 2 weeks ago and fed him once and i had to feed him frozen because he did not eat the live pinkie. How do i get him to eat live pinkies after he is used to frozen? do you have any techniques that will help me?

[diamondlil]

Most people would prefer their corns to take f/t pinks, is there any particular reason you want to feed live?

[Mark16]

well i have always preferred giving snakes live mice because i think that that is one of the parts of a snake being a snake, to catch and kill it's own prey's. any suggestions?


p.s. i enjoy watching them eat live mice too :)

[EmJagsz]

I guess it really all depends on your snake's preference....My baby corn has had f/t pinkies her whole life up until the last time I fed her....I had to resort to live pinkies because there were no frozen pinkies at the store I went to, so I thought, "hey, I'll give it a shot..and if she doesn't eat them live, I'll just toss them in the freezer." Though lo and behold, she ate those live pinkies right up....Now to see if she will accept f/t again..

[Mark16]

ok so do you think by the time he gets a little older and bigger then he will start to accept live pinkies?

[starsevol]

Mark, most responsible and educated keepers feed frozen/thawed.

Live mice can injure a snake.
Live mice can transfer parasites to the snake.

If your snake is happy with frozen/thawed, it is better for your snake to keep feeding frozen/thawed.

In nature, very few hatchlings live til their first birthday, most are eaten by predators, or die of starvation. Many get hit by cars.

We do what's BEST for our pets, and in many cases, that means throwing "natural" out the window. It isn't natural to be in captivity in the first place!

If you truly enjoy watching one animal kill another, there is something wrong with you. Mice can feel pain and fear like any other animal, and if you get off on that, you have a real problem.

[Mark16]

wow dude... feeder mice do not attack snakes.. i had a ball python for several years and it was never attacked by a single feeder mice, geez man don't freak out like that.

[Mark16]

and i don't get off to it, what i meant was it is interesting to watch it..

[starsevol]

Mice are LESS LIKELY than rats to attack a snake, but it CAN and DOES happen.

Any frightened animal can fight back.

Of course, what do I know? I've only owned snakes for 14 year (ball pythons, corn snakes, rosy boas, cal king, desert king, and grey banded king)

[diamondlil]

Still puzzled as to why you want to feed live prey really. If your motivation is 'it's more natural', then it could be argued that so is exposure to starvation, predation, competition. To make the 'hunting' more natural I suppose you could have a room-sized viv with plenty of hiding/escaping areas for the potential prey? If you already have experience of feeding larger, adult mice to snakes, are you not worried that the mouse could one day injure your snake in defense? Could you not also worry that 'enjoying' seeing live prey taken may be a bit of an odd admission to make, perhaps opening yourself to allegations of cruelty for entertainment's sake?
I have 1 corn that is a live, stunned prey only feeder, and I'm trying to convert him to f/k and on to f/t because I don't think feeding live is fun, just a necessity to keep this particular snake alive.

[starsevol]

and i don't get off to it, what i meant was it is interesting to watch it..

It's JUST as interesting to watch a snake eat thawed. Without watching an animal suffer and die, or risk injury to a snake.

[caz223]

Some snakes are a little........different.
Not different as in-pledging to lead a vegatarian lifestyle, but different, as in-not caring what they are supposed to do in the wild but just eat what the giand hand brings them. Kinda like manna from heaven.
Some of my snakes have gotten to the point where they aren't the efficient killers that everyone is afraid of, but for instance, a 4 year old snake not able to kill it's own food even if that food is provided in the form of a baby rat-not really old enough to fight back. It still just eats it alive without any thought as to maybe it should at least restrain it first.
Not saying it's feeding response is bad, I bet it's never refused food, ever.
I think it just knows I'll always provide.
SO I ususally bring them little tv dinner trays. j/k

I think it's just as interesting watching a snake so domesticated that it doesn't strike at food- it just looks at the offered food, carefully finds the head, and starts swallowing the rodent without any sort of effort expended toward checking if it's really dead. While I'm patiently dangling it from a pair of tongs.

[starsevol]

I have no tolerance for UNECCESSARY cruelty to any living thing.
And feeding live for no reason is uneccessary cruelty.

Tell me this.....
Do you expect your pet dog or cat to kill it's own food?

And if you feed your other pets pre-killed food, why is your snake different? Especially when it will happily eat thawed food?

[snakewispera snr]

Or is Mark flicking our switches.......?

[reyshells]

I fed my first corn snake live mice his entire life. He was never attacked and never refused a meal. It's not a problem, you can switch to live. However, he became more a snappy snake after feeding. He's also mistaken my finger for a live mouse. Ouch.

On the other hand, my friend feeds her current adult corn snake live mice and she seems very happy. She is a very friendly snake. But....sometimes the mice my friend gets at the pet shop are not big enough. Buying frozen mice always ensures a set size, even when the store is out of large live mice. Just throwing that out there.

I feed my current hatchling frozen pinkies and he never refuses. I'm undecided on whether or not I want to switch to live, but I may try out a live pinkie today and see what happens.
Oh, and one more thing to add. I understand your feelings on watching snakes eat live mice. I am a zoology major and it fascinates me. But I do feel bad for the poor mice. It's the hardest part of owning a snake.

[caz223]

The first few times this question was posed when I came here, i offered a carefully thought out properly worded essay on the positives and negatives of feeding live.
I really should just find it, copy it to my clipboard, and paste it on any relevant thread to avoid typing it over and over.

Suffice it to say that feeding frozen thawed is the most preferred solution here, and this is an enlightened bunch of people who have lots of pets-and want to give them what's best for them.
There are benefits to feeding live, but they are few, and you're prolly not reaping any of the advantages.
The benefits of frozen thawed far outweigh the disadvantages, and this isn't taking into account the suffering factor.

[LBoz]

I know I've seen some photos floating around there that show exactly what a live mouse can do to a snake. Anyone happen to know how to pull these up? It's definitely not pretty. Pinkies are one thing, but as you go on to larger mice, you're risking not only the parasites and mites as mentioned, but they can do real damage with their bite.

[Susielea]

I know I've seen some photos floating around there that show exactly what a live mouse can do to a snake. Anyone happen to know how to pull these up? It's definitely not pretty. Pinkies are one thing, but as you go on to larger mice, you're risking not only the parasites and mites as mentioned, but they can do real damage with their bite.

These might be a couple of the pics you're thinking of Lori (pics borrowed from Tricksterpup, hope he doesn't mind ;) )

So much for feeders not attacking snakes, eh?

[LBoz]

Thanks, Sue! Those two are a great representation of what a mouse can do. I think there are some head shots around as well. Like I said, it's not a pretty sight is it, Mark?

[Lennycorn]

Still puzzled as to why you want to feed live prey really.

HELLO!!!!!!!!!!

Come on Diamondlil!!

Don't you know that it's cool to show your friends how you feed your snake.

;)

[jenneses]

Here is a brand new thread about what a snake can do to a mouse, no pics but proof that feeder mice do bite!

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75746

[Lyreiania]

Hi Mark...
I think I see the issue here. You appear to think live mice are better for the snake as it helps the snake to be more like he would be in the wild. But the snake is NOT in the wild. In the wild, a mouse can escape. In a cage, the mouse has no where to go, and so the terrified creature certainly can turn and attack your pet. I have seen images of mangled snakes that have been attacked by rat and mouse. Your snake doesnt miss the act of catching his mouse...one can argue that corn snakes have been in mans care for so long they are domesticated.

Frozen mice can also be bought in bulk and its far cheaper than live mice. I can buy about 100 frozen mice for 40$.

Sincerely,
Susan

[caz223]

OK.
Once you take an animal out of the wild, you assume 100% of the responsibility for it's health and well-being, whatever that animal is. You have taken from that animal the ability to care for itself, and whatever that animal's needs are, they must be met. You are the caretaker, you have determined 100% the conditions the animal lives in, etc.

The snake knows it's not in the wild.
It's OK to treat that animal like it's in captivity because it is. It will adapt.
This goes for any animal.

You couldn't provide for it the exact conditions it has available to it out in the wild, because every animal is different, and it would take years of observing it in the wild to match it's desired living conditions.

Instead of approximating those conditions (Because we just can't.), we, as responsible caregivers must do the best we can to meet that animal's basic needs and hope they adapt to the conditions we provide. I'm pretty sure there's not shredded aspen and a clean, sanitized bowl filled with fresh water available to every snake in the wild, so why do we provide it?
Because it's the best compromise we can make for the snake's health. Why do we provide drinking water at all times, knowing that snakes don't have constant access to water 100% of the time?
Again, see above. We have removed from the snake the ability to burrow into areas where it can conserve it's body moisture, and removed the temperature swings that cause dew, which is how it would drink fresh water in the wild. So we have to compensate, and provide unnatural conditions to allow the animal to regulate it's hydration that way.
See what I'm getting at?
We KNOW what these animals need to survive. The research has been done. You aren't the first person to raise corn snakes. We know what conditions they will adapt to as to prevent future health problems. The information is out there, you need not forge ahead and re-invent the wheel. Just do some research.
Since you know these things (Or at very least have access to the sum of human knowledge through the internet.), you have the responsibility to provide them, as best you can. Anything less is poor husbandry.
Snakes will adapt to frozen thawed food items, and they are the best compromise for the snake's health, short of raising your own feeder rodents, and pre-killing them seconds before offering it to your snake.

[MimC]

Not like this point hasn't been made many times aleady...

buuuut....

Feeder animals (rats OR mice) can and do bite snakes. They dont bite them every single time, by all it takes is one time to cause some damage. i do a lot of rescue work and have seen, first hand - the damage that feeder rodents can cause.

I remember a young ball python i got a few years back, it had been fed a feeder MOUSE and had not killed it when he struck it, the mouse lived for awhile while the snake squeezed it and during this time it chewed the snake down to its spine.

This snake survived, but it was a long, grueing, painful rehab - and he was scarred for life.

[MimC]

Not like this point hasn't been made many times aleady...

buuuut....

Feeder animals (rats OR mice) can and do bite snakes. They dont bite them every single time, by all it takes is one time to cause some damage. i do a lot of rescue work and have seen, first hand - the damage that feeder rodents can cause.

I remember a young ball python i got a few years back, it had been fed a feeder MOUSE and had not killed it when he struck it, the mouse lived for awhile while the snake squeezed it and during this time it chewed the snake down to its spine.

This snake survived, but it was a long, grueing, painful rehab - and he was scarred for life.

Another good example is right here on this forum, check out the thread: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75746

this keeper has a corn who has been eating live for 7years with no issue, and this time the snake got bit right above him eye. Lucky he didnt loose the eye.

F/t is a more humane, safer, cheaper and cleaner (no parasites, disease etc) way to feed your cornsnake.

If you choose to feed live and take those risks, that is your own personal choice - but please do not make outrageous and false claims such as "feeder mice do not bite snakes." This is not even a matter of opinion, it is an outright, false statement.

[susang]

Do we need to get out the "Troll Patrol" first eating difficulties, then live vs f/t, i.d my cornsnake that looks like a pygmy rattle snake and a ball python????
Where's the troll bait when we need it, Oh! maybe I'm the troll bait!!!!!

[Katsumi]

do what you gotta do, I would say keep it on what it eats already. it's safe and whatnot. But, if you want to feed live knock it out first.
~kat