Mocha died

[Cinnamon the Snake]

I am so confused. She was a really healthy snake. She ate fine for my last week (i just got her on the 8th), she was active, i even picked her up last night and she seemed perfectly fine. The temperatures are great, the humidity is fine. I just came home and saw her lying in the middle of a cage. her entire body is distorted. She looks like she had a seizure right before she died. I am so confused and shocked. Does anyone know why she may have died??

My last snake also died less than 2 week after i got her. But for a completely different reason. This one was healthy, and moving about.. WHY???? I don't know what to do

[Nanci]

That's crazy! I think, if I were you, I would start over with all new everything. Viv, furnishings, food- everything. That is just very strange. Is there a possible environmental cause in your house? Where did Mocha come from again?? I'm sorry...

[Cinnamon the Snake]

Thanks Nanci, :(
I got Mocha from a breeder at a reptile show.. I don't know if i'll be up for another snake anymore.. somehow i feel like i'm killing them :(

[The_Thunderer]

As I read, I was thinking the same things as Nanci mentioned. Was she exposed to fumes of any sort? Do you know if the neighbors had their house fumigated (possible stray fumes?)? Are the food items okay?

Just tossing thoughts out... I certainly hope that you can figure out what went wrong.

I'm truly very sorry about Mocha...

[MimC]

If you stil have her, you may want to get a necropsy done. Bear in mind this doesnt always give you the answers, but sometimes it does and it may be useful in your case. You can call a local herp vet to see if they perform them, or which lab/university they send them to.

If you do decide to get a another snake i agree with nanci - get a new tank, new substrate, new furnishings, the works.

Do you have any other animals in your house?

Snakes are sensitive to airborn things....could you have an issue with gas? fungus? Mold? etc..? I dont know if its the same for snakes, but i know birds suffer when they are housed near a kitchen and the owners cook with teflon pans...

Im very sorry for your loss....

[Nanci]

You can't kill a snake in two weeks or less except by extreme...I don't even know what. It's not your fault. Just bad luck, two times in a row.

[starsevol]

I'm so sorry. It sounds strange though. Maybe recheck everything before starting again, but DO start again.
(HUGS)

[Cinnamon the Snake]

Thanks everyone.. I don't think my neighbors have sprayed anything. I haven't opened my windows in ages due to the cold. The viv is also kept away from the door and etc.. It couldn't be gas either as my building is entirely electrical (including stove tops) and the heater is powered through water/steam. I have a cat. but i don't think she had anything to do with it. from what i know she doesn't even know that the snake exists.
Do snakes usually look like they had a seizure before they die? Or do you think she really had a seizure?
Thank you all so much for your help

[LBoz]

Geez, I personally don't have a clue, but I'm sending you my sincerest condolences. It's hard when such an awesome hobby starts off so tragically. I hope you'll try again, but I do agree with the rest that major disinfection and new supplies would be a necessity. Best of luck, and I'm so sorry for your loss.

[Weebonilass]

You can't kill a snake in two weeks or less except by extreme...I don't even know what. It's not your fault. Just bad luck, two times in a row.

I agree with Nanci, snakes don't normally die that quickly. I would also guess the problem was long before you got the snake, which is why folks are cautioned to quarantine any new purchases to protect their current collection.

I'm sorry for your losses :(

[Lyreiania]

Hello...
Im really sorry to hear of Mocha's death. It is so frustrating when pets get injured or die and there is no clear explanation of why or how it happened. Could your snake have sustained some type of trauma somehow, someway? Fallen in his cage or something, breaking his spine or a head injury leading to a siezure?

I offer my condolences again,
Sincerely,
Susan

[measley]

I don't have anything much to add to what everyone else has said but I just wanted to say I'm sorry and I hope you do give the hobby another chance...

[caz223]

Lysol will do that, as will many phenol-based household cleaners.
No-pest strips will do that (vapona or dichlorvos based).
I'm trying to think of extreme things that could kill a snake in 2 weeks and be accidental, and there isn't much.
Direct sun from a window.
Locating the cage right by a heat duct might to it if it's really cold outside, and the furnace ran non-stop.
Using softened drinking water might do it.
Renal failure.
Someone in your family that's passive-aggressive, has access, and hates snakes.
I dunno.

[Susan]

I am so sorry to hear about Mocha. I started a quick search of your posts to get a history to see if I could find anything there, and it didn't take long before I found something that you may want to examine further. There are a couple of things in this post that concern me:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=728872&postcount=1

The UTH should be on 24/7, not just at night. It's cold in Wisconsin right now and I seriously doubt your snake's viv has a warm spot of around 85 F during the day with just your normal room temps. Using a heat lamp instead of the UTH can create temps that are too high, as you discovered. 93 degrees will kill a hatchling very rapidly. I didn't go any further with my search and I have no idea if you had changed how you heat your viv or not or if you use a rheostat/thermostat to regulate the temps, but I have given you something to look into as to a possible cause of Mocha's death.

[Calift]

Sorry to hear Mocha died!

I know what you mean with bad luck and snakes. My first girl, a creamsicle named Penny got out a couple months ago. I haven't seen her since, but I felt horrible for her escape! Then came Paddy, my current ball python. Just last friday she developed an RI and doesn't look too good (vet sure helped though). I thought she'd die, and jinx for failing on two snakes two very different ways.....but don't give up on snakes! Just do everything in your power to make sure the next one has perfect, spotless care and conditions.

[caz223]

I am so sorry to hear about Mocha. I started a quick search of your posts to get a history to see if I could find anything there, and it didn't take long before I found something that you may want to examine further. There are a couple of things in this post that concern me:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=728872&postcount=1

The UTH should be on 24/7, not just at night. It's cold in Wisconsin right now and I seriously doubt your snake's viv has a warm spot of around 85 F during the day with just your normal room temps. Using a heat lamp instead of the UTH can create temps that are too high, as you discovered. 93 degrees will kill a hatchling very rapidly. I didn't go any further with my search and I have no idea if you had changed how you heat your viv or not or if you use a rheostat/thermostat to regulate the temps, but I have given you something to look into as to a possible cause of Mocha's death.

Susan's right.
It sounds like it got too hot and too cold.
The temp range should be approx 78-88F.
As in, the coldest the cold spot should get at night is around 78F.
Also, the snake should have constant access to a hot side temp of 88F, should they wish, and no hotter!
I would get an infrared heat gun, and run your tank through a day's activities with no snake in it.
Turn the UTH and let it stay on 24/7, and measure the temp with the heat gun, if it exceeds 88F, you need a rheostat or thermostat, as Susan mentioned.
I've heard of people using a ceramic tile or similar over the hot spot to spread the heat around, but I don't like it. Snakes like to hide UNDER stuff. That method works OK with a spot light that has a thermostat and the probe attached to the tile, but I'm still not a fan of that sort of thing. UTHs are a snake's best friend, if they are set up right. I'm a fan of a nice big warm spot, rather than a teeny hot spot. So, I tend to size UTHs bigger than most people, and regulate them with a thermostat.
I also suspect the cold side is too cold during the night, as if you unplug all the sources of heat, it prolly got to ambient room temp.
That's just too cold unless you keep your room at 78F.
I use a 412L from reptile basics, and it's a great tool, but you could certainly use something a bit less expensive. I consider it the best tool for the job.
http://www.reptilebasics.com/412L-IR-Thermometer-p-16288.html
It has a d:s (Distance to spot ratio.) rating of 12:1. In other words, at 12 inches from a surface, it takes the surface temp of a 1 inch circle, with the center being at where the laser pointer points.
At 4 feet, it would take the average temp of a 4" circle.
This is true for that model and all models with a D:S of 12:1, not all tempguns.
Cheap temp guns are unreliable and inaccurate at worst, and inconsistent and hard to use at best.
Good temp guns are VERY accurate, and take the temp of a surface instantly, at real time. Thermometers with probes take AIR temps of the spot they're sitting on, and can vary widely, depending on the position of the probe.

[Cinnamon the Snake]

Susan's right.
It sounds like it got too hot and too cold.
The temp range should be approx 78-88F.
As in, the coldest the cold spot should get at night is around 78F.
Also, the snake should have constant access to a hot side temp of 88F, should they wish, and no hotter!
I would get an infrared heat gun, and run your tank through a day's activities with no snake in it.
Turn the UTH and let it stay on 24/7, and measure the temp with the heat gun, if it exceeds 88F, you need a rheostat or thermostat, as Susan mentioned.
I've heard of people using a ceramic tile or similar over the hot spot to spread the heat around, but I don't like it. Snakes like to hide UNDER stuff. That method works OK with a spot light that has a thermostat and the probe attached to the tile, but I'm still not a fan of that sort of thing. UTHs are a snake's best friend, if they are set up right. I'm a fan of a nice big warm spot, rather than a teeny hot spot. So, I tend to size UTHs bigger than most people, and regulate them with a thermostat.
I also suspect the cold side is too cold during the night, as if you unplug all the sources of heat, it prolly got to ambient room temp.
That's just too cold unless you keep your room at 78F.
I use a 412L from reptile basics, and it's a great tool, but you could certainly use something a bit less expensive. I consider it the best tool for the job.
http://www.reptilebasics.com/412L-IR-Thermometer-p-16288.html
It has a d:s (Distance to spot ratio.) rating of 12:1. In other words, at 12 inches from a surface, it takes the surface temp of a 1 inch circle, with the center being at where the laser pointer points.
At 4 feet, it would take the average temp of a 4" circle.
This is true for that model and all models with a D:S of 12:1, not all tempguns.
Cheap temp guns are unreliable and inaccurate at worst, and inconsistent and hard to use at best.
Good temp guns are VERY accurate, and take the temp of a surface instantly, at real time. Thermometers with probes take AIR temps of the spot they're sitting on, and can vary widely, depending on the position of the probe.

Thank you all for helping! The temperature was really high (93) that particular day only because i was feeding her inside a container and wanted to make sure it was warm enough inside. The UTH was the only thing that was on, and being that the container was thick, i was sure it wouldn't be warm enough inside. That is why i ALSO turned on the heat lamp. That was the only day the temperature was off, and i had quickly turned the lamp off to make sure the temp went back to normal.

I use a heat lamp during the day (& also a full spectrum light), and UTH at night (my vet had suggested it, when i took Pumpkin Spice in for a checkup). The temperatures are actually very consistent. During the day the warm side is at around 85. The carpet and the ambient air. At night, with the UTH, the ambient temp is usually in the lower 80s, and the carpet itself is around 84. The cool side is consistently around 75. I use a temp probe with a digital display on the warm side, a magnetic strip on both sides, and also a regular temp gauge (with a dial) on the warm side. (i know, total overkill, but i couldn't help but think more is better than less!)

The cage is kept away from direct sunlight. I had cleaned last Sunday, but only vacuumed and did the dishes..didn't use lysol or anything like that. I got her a new "vine" (synthetic) from the pet store for her to hang around.. i was thinking that maybe she fell off of that and hit her head on the hiding rock, but that would be a really really short fall (probably 3-4 inches).

I'm sorry if i may come off as defensive, but i just really don't want to think that it's my fault even though it may be :cry: I really do appreciate all of your help, input, and condolences.. Thank you all very much! Please keep your thoughts and opinions coming, as maybe we'll figure it out soon!

[caz223]

Snakes fall and hit their head all the time. That isn't it.

[Cinnamon the Snake]

That's what i figured too :-/ .. i was also thinking maybe my cat jumped on the table and scared her to death.. but i feel like that is way off too.

Do you think my temps seem right from what I've mentioned. I really appreciate your help!

[caz223]

I can't say with certainty, because I 'm not there.
What I have seen personally is that UTH, while great for snakes are really meant for desert species. They just get too hot. I have a pic somewhere of a UTH that cracked the class on an aquarium. It needs to get hot to do that.
From what I've seen personally, an unregulated UTH adds approx. 20 degrees F to ambient temps. If it's 70F in the room, the hot spot site will be approx. 90F, if it's properly set up, plus or minus the thickness of the substrate. Sometimes less, sometimes more. Now, the substrate issue. I've heard people with a lot more experience than I recommend unregulated UTH, in combination with deep burrowing substrate like aspen. The aspen will get cooler near the top and hot near the bottom, making a 3 dimensional thermal gradient.
That being the case, I defer to their experience, but I must reiterate, reptile carpet, newspaper, paper towels, butcher paper, or any thin substrate shouldn't be used with an unregulated UTH.
In the directions for the UTH it says to make sure the UTH isn't resting on carpet. Why? Because it will melt/singe the carpet. That means under certain conditions, it will get a lot hotter than 20F over ambient if the heat isn't allowed to escape. They give you those little blocks to pick your aquarium off the ground in the package, and tell you not to use the UTH without them. I recommend you throw them away, and set your aquarium on 4 hockey pucks instead. Attach your temp probe with a piece of tape directly to the UTH underneath and watch in horror at how hot it is while in operation.
Overall, I think there are just too many variables for me to be able to recommend an unregulated UTH with any substrate, but if you must, I'd recommend a thick layer of aspen.

[Nanci]

I think the thing to take forward from this is to set up the next snake in as near to a "standard" set up as possible. 24 hour UTH on a thermostat- no heat lamp or timers or anything. Aspen. A probed thermometer on the glass under the warm hide and on the glass under the cool hide. The thermostat set to produce a temp of 85F on the warm side, on the glass, under the aspen and the hide. With such a standard set up, there is no question about if the temps are ok or not.

[caz223]

I think the thing to take forward from this is to set up the next snake in as near to a "standard" set up as possible. 24 hour UTH on a thermostat- no heat lamp or timers or anything. Aspen. A probed thermometer on the glass under the warm hide and on the glass under the cool hide. The thermostat set to produce a temp of 85F on the warm side, on the glass, under the aspen and the hide. With such a standard set up, there is no question about if the temps are ok or not.

100% agreed.

[Cinnamon the Snake]

Okay :) I will try that for sure if i get another snake. Thank you both very much for your help! I'm glad I have everyone on this forum to turn to!

[Rich in KY]

I am so sorry to hear of your loss :awcrap:

R.I.P. Mocha

She was such a cute lil snake.

Please don't let this discourage you from your interest in keeping a snake.