What would you do?

[hiddenhollowherp]

I have a 3'4", 7 year old snake, named Drake. When I got drake 6 years ago, he was very, very near death. I took him to a vet who did many, many tests on him and came back to tell me that Drake had a deformed stomach which simply didn't expand. She told me he needed to be fed tiny meals often. This sounded absolutely bizarre to me, so I went to another vet, who was highly recommended. He told me "She was absolutely right, this snake needs tiny, frequent meals and a little extra heat." Well, I figured he didn't want to deal with it, so just agreed with the first vet. I went to another vet a 3 hour drive away and told her NOTHING about visiting two vets previously. She told me the following: "He's very small for his age. The results I'm getting point towards an underdeveloped stomach. He's regurgitating his food because it just can't fit in his stomach. For now, feed him half a pink mouse per day. Come and see me in five weeks." Five weeks later, I go back. "He's improved quite a bit, I'd say. Take this serum and add it to his water to aid his digestion. Come and see me again in five weeks." Five weeks later: "He is a whole different snake, isn't he? He's put on alot of weight, but he might just not get to be a normal size, you know? Some of them are just smaller. I'd like to modify his diet every six months or so, and he's going to need check-ups..."

Well, Drake is still having checkups every 3-6 months as needed, and he's still getting medication on a supplemental basis to aid in his digestion. At the present time, this small boy is getting 1 pinky per day with no food on shedding day (which I can usually tell because he becomes very, very grumpy). Drake is prone to regurging his meals, so he is simply NOT handled. He receives his F/T newborn pinks in a marble feeding bowl, which he will sit coiled up in when he is hungry. This is the system I have developed with him over the years, and it seems to work out okay. He has his own colony of mice, led by male Oscar, who receive carefully-measured fresh foods and supplements to guarantee their health. Drake is an expensive snake to keep. He always will be. I do not believe that many people would have the drive needed to keep up with this special boy, but I love him so much that it's more than worth it. He truly is very special to me.

Recently I've been told that Drake's diet is incomplete. I've been told that pinks are not good enough to sustain him. I've been told that pinks are nutritionally incomplete and don't include everything he needs to be healthy. Drake will never be the world's healthiest snake, but I want to know that he is as healthy as he can be, and I want to do everything in my power to make that happen.

I've recently tried cutting larger fuzzies in half, so that he gets the same quantity but a different quality. He likes this alot! Thawing and cutting and refreezing fuzzy portions is not ideal to me. What I'd like to know is this:

Does this make a difference at all? Is a fuzzy really that much better than a pinky? After the fuzzy is frozen, thawed, cut, and refrozen (the remaining half), is there enough nutrition left in it to make it any better than a whole pinky?

I've yet to discuss this with my vet, but since she's the one who recommended whole pinkies and not half fuzzies, I'd have to assume she'd stand by her decision.

What are your opinions on this? :???:

[Sharon]

I've always heard that fuzzies are way better nutritionally than pinkies, hence a baby snake's growth spurt when they get big enough to eat fuzzies. I can't help you with your other questions, sorry.

[hiddenhollowherp]

Thankyou, Tsiriane. That was very helpful for me. :)

I still want more opinions though, if anyone else would care to comment?

[RobbiesCornField]

I believe that fuzzies are more nutritionally sound than pinkies. Their skeletal system is a bit more developed, which contributes to more calcium in your snakes diet.

[hiddenhollowherp]

That makes sense to me, Robbie.
Drake does get calcium supplements via his water dish, but nothing compares to naturally developed nutrition.

[RobbiesCornField]

That makes sense to me, Robbie.
Drake does get calcium supplements via his water dish, but nothing compares to naturally developed nutrition.

True, true. Especially with the little bit of marrow in the fuzzy bones.
I wish you the best of luck with this guy!

[ghosthousecorns]

What are the supplements called? Is it nutribac?
Was it somebody on the forum who told you the pinkys were incomplete?
This may be a special case. If three vets gave told you that is all he can handle, I don't know but that is three veterinarians versus people on the internet who may not know it's a special case. Normally I would tell someone one pinky every day is a very bad way to feed a snake.
I think if it were me it would bother me that the snake is in a constant state of digesting something. I would be tempted to slowly increase the size of the meals and leave days in between. If he has grown and improved since you got him then that is always good.

[hiddenhollowherp]

True, true. Especially with the little bit of marrow in the fuzzy bones.
I wish you the best of luck with this guy!

Not to mention the extra muscle and keratin from the fuzzy fuzz!
Thanks, Robbie. So far the vote seems pretty one-sided. I think Drake may be due for an appointment with a reptile nutritionist, and possibly a change in diet. :duck:

[hiddenhollowherp]

What are the supplements called? Is it nutribac?
Was it somebody on the forum who told you the pinkys were incomplete?
This may be a special case. If three vets gave told you that is all he can handle, I don't know but that is three veterinarians versus people on the internet who may not know it's a special case. Normally I would tell someone one pinky every day is a very bad way to feed a snake.
I think if it were me it would bother me that the snake is in a constant state of digesting something. I would be tempted to slowly increase the size of the meals and leave days in between. If he has grown and improved since you got him then that is always good.

He does get nutribac on a supplemental basis. He gets other things too, such as RepCal, and.. D: Jeepers I wish I could remember the name of the other stuff. Powder in an Rx bottle. :shrug: Another vitamin supplement.

I've heard it from a few people here, mostly in Chat. Drake's problem includes the fact that his stomach doesn't expand. Even gradually. If what you give him is a hair too big, he barfs it up, and it scares the crap out of me every time. :(

[MyLittleGuyCyrus]

Hi HHH.....I can't help you but I just wanted to say that you are awesome! What you took on with Drake is short of amazing! Most people would let him slither across the rainbow bridge. I know how you feel, one of my Cocker Spaniels was epileptic...to the point that one missed medication would definately make him have a seizure three days later. He needed many visits to the vet to check his blood because the meds he was on could have destroyed his liver. Not to mention the skin infection he got, his obesity and his smell (he was rank, something to do with food allergies). Anyway, I hung tight with Buddy Bo until he was almost 16 and had a stroke. I love you for your compassion and perseverence! ROCK ON!

[hiddenhollowherp]

Hi HHH.....I can't help you but I just wanted to say that you are awesome! What you took on with Drake is short of amazing! Most people would let him slither across the rainbow bridge. I know how you feel, one of my Cocker Spaniels was epileptic...to the point that one missed medication would definately make him have a seizure three days later. He needed many visits to the vet to check his blood because the meds he was on could have destroyed his liver. Not to mention the skin infection he got, his obesity and his smell (he was rank, something to do with food allergies). Anyway, I hung tight with Buddy Bo until he was almost 16 and had a stroke. I love you for your compassion and perseverence! ROCK ON!

That made me smile SO MUCH! :o
I do need to admit that when I got Drake, I had no idea his problems were so severe. I thought he was a trick feeder, and that was all. BOY was I wrong! By the time I had gone through so much with him.. So much weighing and measuring and careful calculation, I just couldn't let him go. I'd fallen in love with him for good, and he will stay here with me forever. I'd sell a lung before I'd sell my Drakie. :)

[Nanci]

Well, Drake has been alive for six years in your care, so things must be more or less right. I think half fuzzies would be good, if they stay down. If he regurges them, I wouldn't risk it.

My first snake, Maizey, an adult, ws doing fine until I fed him a mouse that was too big. I had this kind of suspicious feeling when I saw the mouse, but I fed it anyway. Maize regurged. I went through the protocol, worked back up to normal adult mice, and he would regurge. I had him dewormed and gram stained. I never could get him back even on big hoppers/weaneds. The vet suspects an anatomic abnormality, but says it would be difficult and expensive to diagnose, and most likely untreatable. So Maize lives on meals of three rat pinks or three fuzzies. He continues a slow growth. I gave him Nutribac for a couple years, then stopped. I slit the mice for a couple years, then stopped. I can handle him and do whatever I want with him, though. He has never regurged since I stopped offering appropriate-sized mice, and dropped back to multiple small mice.

[airenlow]

I have found that cutting frozen mice in half and then thawing them out helps to reduce the mess and does away with the refreezing process...doesn't answer your question but thought I would throw it out there. ;)

[hiddenhollowherp]

Airenlow, the part that bothers me is the remaining half. It needs to be refrozen and rethawed and I'm afraid this isn't good nutrition. :nope:

Drake is very prone to regurging, mostly due to his meal size and how much he moves around. I avoid handling him nomatter what. His cage is cleaned based on where he is. When he's in his bowl, the other half is cleaned. When he's in his hide, the bowl half is cleaned. :/

[airenlow]

Airenlow, the part that bothers me is the remaining half. It needs to be refrozen and rethawed and I'm afraid this isn't good nutrition. :nope:

Thats what I'm saying...cut it first, then thaw out the half you are feeding. The other half remains frozen for a later date.

[hiddenhollowherp]

OH! :roflmao:
I'm not the brightest crayon in the box.
Well, that's not a bad idea at all!

[danielle]

Thats what I did when I first got Jackson. Cutting the frozen pinkie as you know is easier and less messy, but then since the other half is still frozen you can just pop it back in the freezer.

[Tracee]

The vets you've seen sound like they know what they are talking about, so discuss with them, but if Drake keeps the part-fuzzies down, then great!

I ran a search for "nutrition table" as I do remember seeing one a long time ago. This isn't the one I remember, but still might be useful/interesting:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=102659#post102659

[diamondlil]

Rodentpro have a comparison table
http://rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

[rolandslf]

Hi there, you need to be commended and repped for being such an inspiration to all of us. Keep up the fantastic job you are doing.

Ciao

[Tracee]

Rodentpro have a comparison table
http://rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp
That's the one! Thanks hun :)

[nrfitchett4]

that's interesting. I thought the concensus was that pinkies were fattier than fuzzies. guess not.

[diamondlil]

That's the one! Thanks hun :)
No worries, I remember wondering what ate whole deer or holstein calves, so it stuck in my head!

[caz223]

Well, short of feeding him chicken parts (Sorry, bad joke.) I'd say you know what the problem is, you're just looking for someone who has dealt with a similar critter.
I can offer only what I've done personally.
I have rubber boas, and the male of the species is very small, even as an adult.
I have had one slow grower (Slow even for a rubber boa.) that is on fuzzies after 5+ years, and he seems to be doing just fine.
I also have a stunted cal-king with a similar problem to yours. He escaped, and I found him over a year later, on a cement floor in an unattached garage at less than 20f. He has nerve damage, and while otherwise normal, he strikes very inaccurately, has poor muscle tone, and just doesn't grow. He holds his head up, but he strikes he's all over the place. He must be assist fed, but he doesn't seem to mind. Of course, to make assist feeding easier the meals are smaller and more frequent.

I think the difference between pinks and fuzzies is not only a function of how old they are, but when they are gut loaded with.
If you can feed them mice that have some solid food in their tract it seems to help immensely.
My next suggestion would be to use some zoo prepared formula like snake steak sausages, and use the small size.
It wouldn't be any cheaper than pinks, but it may offer more nutrition and digestibility.

[RobbiesCornField]

No worries, I remember wondering what ate whole deer or holstein calves, so it stuck in my head!

Retics. :D If I ever had a retic that big, I'd put him on a leash and let him go hunting in the woods. That food would get expensive!

[hiddenhollowherp]

So far, he's been holding down the fuzzy segments, and even seems more eager to eat and a bit perkier afterwards.

The vet told me that changing his diet in this way wouldn't do him any harm, and she wants to moniter his progress to see if his condition improves any. He has a checkup in five weeks. :)

Thank you guys so much for helping me with my little Drake. I love him more than anything in the world. :o

If anyone has any other suggestions, please feel free to post them here! I'd really appreciate as many opinions and comments as possible. Even criticism.

Thanks again, guys! :D

[Hallie]

No worries, I remember wondering what ate whole deer or holstein calves, so it stuck in my head!

Retics, anacondas....

Retics. :D If I ever had a retic that big, I'd put him on a leash and let him go hunting in the woods. That food would get expensive!

Lol, I actually ran into a guy at a pet store once that has a green anaconda and a caiman. He had a contract with one of the local farmers that whenever there was a stillborn calf (or goat, if I recall correctly), the farmer would put it in the freezer for the guy with the snake. The snake only ate what the farmer provided (plus maybe a big bunny or two here and there).

So far, he's been holding down the fuzzy segments, and even seems more eager to eat and a bit perkier afterwards.

The vet told me that changing his diet in this way wouldn't do him any harm, and she wants to moniter his progress to see if his condition improves any. He has a checkup in five weeks. :)

Thank you guys so much for helping me with my little Drake. I love him more than anything in the world. :o

If anyone has any other suggestions, please feel free to post them here! I'd really appreciate as many opinions and comments as possible. Even criticism.

Thanks again, guys! :D

So glad to hear that little Drake is doing well! You should post some pictures of the little fellow, we'd love to see him!! :) I think you're doing a wonderful job with him. You are an inspiration to us all.

[hiddenhollowherp]

So glad to hear that little Drake is doing well! You should post some pictures of the little fellow, we'd love to see him!! :) I think you're doing a wonderful job with him. You are an inspiration to us all.

:o Awwh, thanks! I don't know if I'm that special though.
I've been meaning to get pics of all of my snakes, and Drake will DEFINITELY be there if I do! He's very small for an adult male, but maybe he'll grow on his new diet! :)

[Hallie]

:o Awwh, thanks! I don't know if I'm that special though.
I've been meaning to get pics of all of my snakes, and Drake will DEFINITELY be there if I do! He's very small for an adult male, but maybe he'll grow on his new diet! :)

Sure you are. :) It takes a very special person to go to such lengths to care for a creature with special needs. I'm sure most of us around here would do it, but in the general snake owning public, I don't think many would.

[hiddenhollowherp]

Even if I quit with snakes, I'll never get rid of Drake. I'm afraid he'd go to someone who wouldn't know what to do.

He's chowin' down as we speak! He just GULPS at those fuzzies! I really think this was a good switch for him. :)

[melopez2]

Cant realy help but had to say how awsome of you to take the time with this little guy and not giving up on him

[hiddenhollowherp]

:blowhead:
So, unfortunately, I'm going to have to clarify in great detail how Drake's new feeding plan was formulated.

In July of '08, long before I knew this site existed, I had Norma at the Legion with me and I was eating some cheese bings (which are deliciously deadly) and my buddy Dusty, who is a bartender there, asked me about "That little skinny snake" of mine. I had a picture on my phone, so I pulled it out and showed him. He was impressed, knowing Drake's condition when I'd first received him. He asked me how I was taking care of him, and I told him (it was the same then as it was before I switched him to halved fuzzies). He says to me "Oh, that's nice, but it could be better." And he proceeded to tell me about all of his hatchlings that got fuzzy segments instead of pinkies "To give 'em a head start" he said. I just dismissed it thinking that Drake was a special case.

I had thought about what Dusty told me, even gone so far as to devise a method of cutting the fuzzy vertically to make sure he didn't become favorable to one half over another. This was never a new suggestion to me, I had just decided that what I was doing was sufficient and hygienic in comparison.

Upon entering chat and getting into a (highly unnecessary, heated) argument with a couple of other users, I agreed to try a halved fuzzy as per their recommendations. It worked like a charm.

Low and behold, a few days later, I get angry PMs from the users involved saying: "You took all the credit for MY feeding idea!" Now, if these people were the first people in the world to consider cutting a mouse in half, more power to 'em. I just wanted to clarify that I'm not "taking credit" for anything! If getting praise was all these users cared about, I don't feel sorry about this post in the least. I feel a little betrayed because I had originally thought that they cared about the welfare of Drake over-all. I'm still not passing judgement on any of these people involved, I'm just a little disappointed.

I don't want this to turn into a big scuffle. I just want it to be known that Dusty was the first one to suggest halved fuzzies, and that WHO REALLY CARES?! All that matters is, Drake is a happy, healthy, HUNGRY boy since we made the switch! :)

One he sheds, I'll be posting pics in my album. :D