Eating!!

[Boixos]

Hey everyone!

I have just got a second corn, had my other 2weeks ago!

Now my first snake has once's eat at my place (wednesday) but haven't eat again since! should i give him once a week or serve him more a week!

The otherone if got today, i haven't feed him! (loool) but when should i give him a pinkie? (there are bouth 1 month old)

Is it wrong for me to handle them already? because my corn that i have for 2weeks now, is very "happy" when i pick him up! But the otherone isn't

Can someone give some answer's! thx

BOIXOS NOIS

[bmm]

They aren't happy when you pick them up. Snakes can't be happy. They can however tolerate handling.

I wouldn't be handling them at all if you just got them and both are being questionabe about eating. Handling does nothing for them but stress them out for some snakes and especially babies, so just skip it for a few weeks and they will be eating.

bmm

[MissHisssss]

Why can't a snake be happy?

[mattsnake]

I think that handling is also good exercise. In the wild they would probably get all their exercise from searching for food. As for snakes being happy, I don't think they have much feelings. They are not like a dog or cat. A little while ago though, I had the heat pads unpluged because we were having a nice, warm, summer- like few weeks.(rare in new england) then we had a couple cold nights and my stripe amel. stopped cruising his cage like usual. So when I was taking him out to hold him, he got realy deffensive and rattled real loud a few times. So i plugged in the heat pad and he started cruising around, poking his little head out at me, and didn't rattle or act aggresive. Did he feal happy with the warmer temperatures? anythings possible... :)

[Chip]

Snakes are simply not higher life-forms. We tend to anthromorphize animals; imply that they have human emotions. Having spent time around monkey and apes (even for a short volunteer period of a month), and owned several dogs and cats, I'll admit mammals do show emotion. But even they can not to the extent that humans do, they don't have as complex of brain functions. Going down the evolutionary scale, you see less and less indications of "feelings".
As for my snakes, I'm often asked by visitors if they are "happy" in captivity. The only answer I can give is "they eat and reproduce!" Some wild-caught species can't make the adjustment to captivity. Most colubrids do.
But to answer your handling question, I'm with Bmm. Babies especially have a stress-filled adjustment period before they can tolerate handling. Make that a slow transition. Let them settle in to their new homes and eat readily before unduly disturbing them. Their odds of survival will increase. And alive and less-stressed is the next best thing to happy.:)

[MissHisssss]

So, if they can experience other emotions like fear, anger and displeasure, to name a few... then why can't they feel happiness too? I've seen what appeared to be unhappy snakes and happy snakes.... am I going nuts? How can something experience unhappiness, but not happiness?

MissHisssss

[Boixos]

So they are in there terra without handeling from saterday morning now! (4days)
When do you think it's the best time to handle them again and feed them?


BOIXOS NOIS

[Rachel]

MissHiss,
Snakes (and all other lower life forms) don't experience 'emotions' the way we do. We have a far more complex brain and have whole sections devoted to controling whether we are happy, sad, in love etc. In reptiles and amphibians, the brainstem controls 'emotional reactions'. These are merely insinctive responses to their environments. If they are not gaining all their requirements in a particular habitat, then they will move elsewhere (in captivity they can't move so will become ill or 'unhappy'). If all they need is there (water, warmth, food, maybe a mate) then they are instinctively 'content' to stay there. I really shouldn't use terms such as unhappy or content, because as Elrojo said, it would be anthromorphizing (sp?) them but I can't really come up with a word that accurately describes their primitive emotions. :rolleyes:

HTH :D

[bmm]

Like others said, they don't experience unhappyness or happyness or any other emotion. They just don't. They react to the enviroment in the best way which would lead to survival. That's all. Period.

They cannot make friends, fall in love, or be happy when a giant picks them up. They have no need for feelings which is why they evolved without them. They are hunters, killers and live by instinct 100%

bmm

[Chip]

And how appropriate that it was about emotions in snakes, something we bonded over a dang year ago. ;) Folks, don't be disappointed or find it sad that "They cannot make friends, fall in love, or be happy when a giant picks them up. They have no need for feelings which is why they evolved without them. They are hunters, killers and live by instinct 100%"
This is how the good Lord made 'em and it works to keep the species alive. Boixos, feed hatchlings every five days until they work up to 2-3 pinks per meal (at which time they get that first "fuzzy), and then back it off to every seven. If you are pushing growth rate, feed twice weekly, I feed my holdbacks (hatchlings I'm going to keep or sell to CAV) every Tuesday and Saturday. Once they are several months old, I forget the 48 hour handling rule, but have had them puke the day after feeding when cleaning the cage, so I leave them alone right after a meal for the first three months of their lives, then handle them whenever. Just my personal practice, not the advice everybody will likely give you, but it works for me...

[13mur 6]

I think the problem here is word usage. Perhaps satisfied is a more appropriate word than happy when referring to a snake, since I've seen many a time when my snakes were quite satisfied with a meal, or a nice warm damp hide, or just being held on a cool morning.

They can be quite dissatisfied too, for example, they may be dissatisfied with the hamster pup I gave them for their weekly meal and decide to roll it around the cage for 2 hours before leaving it and going back into their hides.

They can also be curious and frightened, the two being almost opposites when it comes to behavior (but I think there have been times where they are both at the same time, yeah they're confusing... "my gosh I smell dinner out there but there's this big thing walking around, mebbe I'll just stick my head out and try to nab the mouse before he looks... oh damn he saw me")

And I think that pretty much sums up the extent of their emotions.

-Lemur 6

[Boixos]

OK OK OK!!

It's not happynis he feel, but it's no anger also!!!

I have leave them alone for 4-5 days now to adjust them to there new home (because they wont EAT!!!)
Is it now the wright time to try to handle them again and give them the chance to eat??? (they haven't eat in 2weeks now!!!!)

BOIXOS NOIS

[Chip]

You need to get a meal in them. Question number one is always WHAT IS THE TEMPERATURE in their cage? Are you feeding frozen/thawed? If so, make sure they're not only thawed out, but nice and warm. If still no luck, try live pinkies. Let us know. There are many more tricks in the old book, some pretty grizzly, but usually work.

[bmm]

HAHA Thanks Elrojo, I am INDEED a member with no life. LMAO...Well o.k. a member with no normal life, although I have a very full snake life. :D


and Boixos- Try Elrojos suggestions. Its not a bad thing either that snakes can't feel the emotions the same as humans, In fact its one of my favorite parts about them. They are able to live with or without us which gives me a good feeling about raising them. And they aren't as needy as other pets, which IMHO makes them more enjoyable. If snakes were more emotional, maintaining a decent sized collection would be impossibe. LOL :D

bmm

[Rachel]

Originally posted by bmm
If snakes were more emotional, maintaining a decent sized collection would be impossibe. LOL :D

bmm

LOL, yeah can you imagine if you had a whole room of snakes giving you a puppy dog look 'love me please' 'play with me first' 'no me ME ME' 'you don't spend enough time with me' kinda thing? Well obviously they can't talk but you get the jist of it.... :p

[MissHisssss]

Sorry Elrojo that my 'emotions' question took away from your eating/handling questions. So I'll just say that people used to say that dogs, cats, etc didn't have emotions/feelings but now most agree that they do. I could really get into this subject, but all I'll say is that several people seem to have agreed that they have seen some sort of display of emotions/feelings in their snakes, so if it's agreed that we see it why not admit that it's happening? I'm not saying that they feel these feelings as much as we do... but until I am a snake I can not say that they don't.

Back to you and your questions Elrojo.

MissHisssss.

[MissHisssss]

I guess Rachel and I were sending messages at the same time. I hate to say this, but I have a few snakes that seem to be giving me the puppy dog look from time to time. Or the guilt trip look. I'll walk by their terrarium and they'll have their heads sticking out from their hides, with arched necks and starring eyes.... watching me as I walk by as if saying, "Please give me a mouse, or please please... will ya pleeeeeeaze?" Then there is the shy one that ducks back in as soon as he sees me. (What is shyness?). Perhaps they are doing emotons in snake fashion, but like I said... until I am a snake.... I can not say if they do or don't, I can only say that sometimes I see that they do.

MissHisssss

[Rachel]

Originally posted by MissHisssss
So I'll just say that people used to say that dogs, cats, etc didn't have emotions/feelings but now most agree that they do. I could really get into this subject, but all I'll say is that several people seem to have agreed that they have seen some sort of display of emotions/feelings in their snakes, so if it's agreed that we see it why not admit that it's happening? I'm not saying that they feel these feelings as much as we do... but until I am a snake I can not say that they don't.

MissHisssss.

People used to believe that we were the only 'intelligent' life forms capable of showing emotions. Now, with neuro science, we can PROVE which animals are capable of showing complex emotion behaviour. We know which parts of the brain are responsible for emotions, instinct, olfaction etc etc and reptiles simply do not have the complex brain that many mammals have that would make tham capable of showing higher forms of emotion. They can show emotion as an instinct based reaction only and that's a fact. There are some other animals where it is debatable whether thay have the ability to show the kinds of emotions that we have (a 'grey matter' area I would guess, LOL) but the simple brains found in reptiles and amphibians leaves us with no doubt at all that they react on instinct. They only have a primitive emotion 'centre'. Boixos, sorry for getting away from the point of the post, but at least some poeple reading this might learn something new...a post with 2 for 1!


ps I can't believe I made a 'grey matter' joke. I'm turning into one of those lab coat geeks.... :rolleyes:

[MissHisssss]

Ooops, once again we crossed paths Rachel. I commented on the puppy dog look in the a post just before your last one.

Back to the main issue. I agree to try and get the snake to eat before handling it. I know you're dying to, but for the sake of the snake.... do the food first. Then once accomplished, (always) wait a few days before handling.

MissHisssss

[Rachel]

Ooops sorry! :)

Yeah I would maybe try leaving the food with the snakes and just leave them completely. They are maybe still trying to settle into their new home.

[J_Daniels]

I've also noticed that certain hatchlings (which I assume is what you purchased) won't feed if the food item is too large.

I've had some that will not (possibly cannot) feed on anything larger than a day old pinky.

The temperature, as mentioned earlier, could be a huge factor also.

JCD

[Boixos]

Gave them today pinkies, but they haven't eat from it!!!!

they aren't to big for them because they are pinkies 1day old!!!
and the temperature is 30° under the lamp and 26-28° in the terra!!!

They haven't eat in 2weeks now!!!! Tommorow i'm gonna try living pinkies!! Because i'm almost desperate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


BOIXOS NOIS

[Chip]

this works VERY often, though not a fun process...:rolleyes:

[Boixos]

What's the deli cup method??? because they refusde today again!

And can they really die, from non feeding??? I mean, do they themself just starving to dead????


BOIXOS NOIS

[Darin Chappell]

Are these brand new animals that have never eaten for you, or are they animals that have just recently started refusing their meals? Sorry if you've answered this before, I didn't see it.

[Chip]

Place a pinkie in a small deli cup with a wadded-up paper towel. Add snake. Close lid.
For some reason, the close confines between predator and prey increase the odds of the hatchling taking food voluntarily. You know what braining is, I assume... :eek:

Using the two methods, I have my only non-feeder of the year eating nearly every time. She still doesn't eat if a pinkie is just dropped in the tray with her.

For the record, ventilation holes in the cup are neccessary.

[Boixos]

me again!

They are hatchlings! one of them has just eaten once with me and the other one hasn't eaten a thing!!!

Braining is cutting the mouse his head so the brain jus come out? Tryed that already, but it won't help!!

So the deli cup, is to put the snake in a small place with the mouse!

BOIXOS NOIS

[bindy]

i would offer it 1 pinki a week and if it wont eat leave it in a container over night with a pinki

[bindy]

i would offer it 1 pinki a week and if it wont eat leave it in a container over night with a pinki and a hide

[Darin Chappell]

Here's the order in which I offer food to hatchlings, with a 4-5 day stretch between each offering:

f/t pinky
brained f/t pink
anole scented pinky
live pinky
brained live pinky
anole scented live pinky
small anole

I am now going to add deer mouse shavings to my scent listing, and I may also try to catch some tree frogs to use for scenting.

If you cannot get a hatchling to eat, you can always force feed it a mouse tail (from an adult). It will be stressful for you AND the snake, and there is very little actual nutritional value, but it's better than watching one starve itself to death.

The fact that theone animal has eaten, but has since stopped, suggests that temps may need to be looked at (or some other environmental consideration). The other may eat too, but there comes a time when non-feeders become ingrained on not eating and are just too far gone to save.

Good luck!

[rachel132002]

Awwwwwww poor lil pinkie bein brained I think I have animal attachment issues I can love the uglyest thing going :eek: and that's why i'm sticking with f/t mice! lol


Rach :rolleyes:

[Chip]

Just make a slit across it's forehead with an exacto knife or razor blade. You can even turn your head, just be careful not to cut yourself!

Darin, I'm surprised deli cup feeding isn't on your list. I try that method first, personally. I have pretty good results with it. Sure wish I had access to tiny anoles!

Boixos,
I think it's important to give several day's break between trying to feed them. If you try daily, I'm certain the odds worsen....

[Boixos]

Well guys (and girls) i have good news!!

1 of my 2 snakes has eaten a pinkie!!
I have left a pinkie for 2 nights in her hyding place and she has got it!!! YESSSSSSSSSSSSS

Now it's one more to go!!! First i'm gonna try to set another pinkie in for 2 night, after that i'm gonna try the delicup method, if the others doesn't works!!!

(does tis mean the other one is going to eat better now??)

BOIXOS NOIS

[Darin Chappell]

Chip,

Sorry for the confusion. I feed all of my hatchlings in deli cups.

[Darin Chappell]

Boixos,

Do mean that you left the same pinky with the snake for two nights in a row? Was that a live pinky or a f/t one? If the latter, I'm afraid the bacteria growth on a dead pinky left exposed for two days would be hazzardous. Changing pinkies might be a better approach.

Glad to hear one of them ate, though!

:D

[Chip]

Sorry, jus tryin' to chill wit da the younger peeps (bridge the generational gap) who aren't down wit the likes of the Purple people eater reference. :D

Gotcha. I keep most of my corn hatchlings in 5.7 qt (5.39 liter) Rubbermaids. Seems small enough to find food, all but one or two per clutch do, but surprisingly many of those feed in a deli cup that will NEVER take a meal in this enclosure. I try and try them to see if they will feed like the others with poor results. Put 'em in a cup and the pinkie gets eaten...:confused:

Yeah, Boixos, at 24 hours you really should flush/throw out/ compost that dead pinkie. Snakes will eat some REALLY dead stuff I've learned, but it's not a good idea for a healthy approach. Live pinks will usually live three days removed from their mother. If they aren't eaten in two, they probably won't be eaten and should be offered to something else or frozen for later feeding.

[Boixos]

It was in for 1day but 2 nights!! the first time i put it in was almost at night! so 24 hours with 2 nights!!!


BOIXOS NOIS