re-gurge

[kitten1506]

Hi everyone, I was looking up corn snakes and stumble dalong here.
I have a beautiful corn snake that I got about a month and a half ago from a local pet store. At the same time my fiance got his there also. Both were eting just fine, just that Izzy, my fiance's black motley, kept regurgitating. I kept thinking that the pinkies seemed far to big for him, since he was sooo tiny, but the pet store advised against cutting the pinkies and kept saying that they are just fine and he will be fine. well, Izzy is not fine after 4 re-gurges I found him dead in his tank. Now my little Charlie, who has been just fine and eating like a champ, has thrown up twice. The first I think was also triggered by a too big pinkie, again I was told not to cut it and it would be fine, but it was like three times his head. and he is just a wee-bitty one too. His head being maybe the size of pinto bean.
Then the week after that I got my hands and a freshly born pinky and he ate, but regurgitated it 2 days later. that was one week ago. This week I have not fed Charlie as I read that he might need time to rebuilt acid and as he was shedding anyway.
I am planing on feeding him next wednesday, so it will have been 1 week and 5 days since he has thrown up last, 1 week since shedding. I am worried I am not doing something right and that Charlie to will continue to regurgitate until he dies. Can anybody give me advise on what and how to feed him next week to help him to keep it in?
Thank you.

[kathylove]

Unfortunately, you are correct. If you keep feeding him the same thing, he will regurge until he dies. The pet shop was totally remiss in saying it would be ok and not to worry. It is really important to feed very, very tiny meals, such as a tiny pinkie head, after waiting for 8 - 10 days after the regurge. Did you already read the regurge FAQ on this site?

I am not sure if you had both in the same cage. If so, that would explain the 2nd baby regurging after the first one started.

If he regurges even the pinkie head, Nutri Bac might save him. About the only additional thing you can try is a liquid diet with NB. Be sure to follow the regurge FAQ very carefully. Good luck!

[kitten1506]

Thanks Kathy.
I looked up the regurge FAQ. How do I get just a pinkie head? I dont think I can cut one of. The pet store only sells live mice, and I do not know if Charlie will even take to froze/thawed, or dead.
We had both snake in seperate tanks, as Izzy was smaller anad I read that they tend to cannibalism. Charlie is housed in a ten gallon tank right now, for feeding I take him out and put him in a little washed out margerine dish, with holes and lid, as I noticed he eats better when he does not get distracted. Have dog and cat in the house and they seem to be to nosy for him, lol...
well, I guess I will wait until wednesday, that will make it 2 weeks since his last feeding and about 11 days til after he regurgitated.
Thanks again.
cross your fingers for me.

[kathylove]

You just pinch the neck and then freeze the pinks. Then you can cut the heads off. Ask the pet shop to do it for you if you don't want to. It really shouldn't be a big deal for them. And tell them their last advice killed the first snake.

If your snake regurges the head, don't fool around any more. Get some NB. If you can't do that, you can try feeding a little egg yolk via eye dropper (1 cc for a hatchling). You might want to boil it first to kill Salmonella, and then mash it into a liquid (freeze the extra for later). But you should always wait at least 8 days or more after a regurge to feed again. After two or three regurges, the prognosis becomes rather grim. So don't wait too long before doing whatever it takes. I have found NB to be the most likely cure after 2 or 3 regurges, although it doesn't always work.

[metallica fish]

did you tell the petshop that your snake died after you followed their advise? my wife kept going round the petshop saying that our snake wasnt eating and was getting really lazy. but they said it was fine.

i was about to take it round for them to have a look but i found it dead. my wife was so pissed off she marched round and said we wanted another one!

you should do that. its their fault for selling snakes without full knowleadge

[kitten1506]

Kathy, thanks again. I told my fiance what you wrote and he said he'll do it. He bought Charlie for me, so he feels "responsible" to help me make him better, lol, he even suggested as going so far as throwing a pinkie in the blender, but I guess we will go the chopped head route first. Where do i get this Nutri-Bac? Can I add it to the mouse head or do I have to drop it in his throat? He shed real well yesterday, and he does appear alert. He is not very active, but then he has not been very active since I got him. I am afraid of handling him too much, since the pet store told us not to handle them hardly at all until they get bigger because it will stress them out and cause them not to eat or to re-gurge. But then I don't know how much to believe them and how much they are just making up. The liquid diet with NB you are talking about, is it the egg yolk with NB? I measured Charlie today and he is about 16 inches long and his thickest part is about the diameter of a pinkie finger, approx. half an inch.

Thanks, metallica fish. My fiance did complain to the pet store and they did offer to replace Izzy. But at the moment we do not so much feel the need to replace Izzy until we are able to figure out what is wrong with Charlie. We do not want to get another snake just to have it die on us also. So for now we are just trying to work charlie through and then, when we are confident that he will be fine and we know how to properly take care of him and over come hurdles like this one, maybe we will look into getting another snake for my fiance. I am not sure though that it will be from this pet store as I have been dissapointed in their action or lack of action and advise and I am relunctant of further supporting their sales on animals, as they can not follow up with proper care and help suggestions for their animals.

[kathylove]

Powdering a pinkie with NB is good if the snake is basically doing ok, and it is more of a preventative. But if the snake is regurging, I like to give a larger dose via tube or eyedropper, on an empty stomach. Then I will also give more NB with the liquid food (I use a special ferret food, but have a friend who uses egg yolk with good success). I like to start by giving a hatchling about 1 cc of water and NB (your snake is bigger - maybe 1.5 - 2cc) every 2 or 3 days for 3 times on an empty stomach to really coat it well. Then I start giving the NB with the food, and also once in between feedings on an empty stomach, and continue to do that for several feedings. Then if all is going well, I just start powdering the food item and continue that for a couple of months. It is not a medicine, so there is no real dose. This is just what has worked well for me.

I sell Nutri Bac on my site (www.cornutopia.com), and there are other places to buy it online as well - you can probably Google them. But it is very unlikely that you will find it at a local pet shop. They will probably have never heard of it before.

If you don't want a replacement snake from your local shop, maybe they will give you credit in feeder mice or other supplies.

Good luck!

[kitten1506]

Kathy, that reminds me, reading that you use ferret food...I thought the other day maybe canned catfood might work. Since it is pretty much pre-chewed and then it would digest easier. But I dont know if it would not be more harmful then good. But it also does contain poultry, which the eggyolk is. And it is solid enough I can roll it and see if he might eat it without force feeding it to him, since I have never done that and dont know how to hold him and how far to insert the dripper and such. If not, what kind of ferret diet do you use, and how to you give it to him? Should I let him try the pinkie head this time or feed him that mixture first?

I will try to check with my local vet maybe they carry nutri bac. And then my pet store. If not I will order some, how long does it take to ship?

Again thank you so much for all your help!

You do not know how much I appreciate this. I really dont want my little Charlie to suffer and die. I feel like I failed him in a way. Well, hopefully this will work.

[kathylove]

I use Pretty Pet Natural Gold ferret food. It is supposed to analyze in nutrients as a young adult mouse would. I grind it in a coffee grinder and then mix with water, and push through a tea strainer, since there are always a couple of hard parts left unground, and they get stuck in the syringe. I have also used Fancy Feast cat food, the kind that is ground into a fine pate'. Then I mix with water and push through a tea strainer. But I think the yolk or the ferret food is a more complete meal.

You could try the pinkie head and see what happens. If he can digest it, you might not have to go through the trouble I just described above.

I will be away from my computer most of the weekend, but will check back tomorrow night.

[kitten1506]

Kathy, I will give the pinkie head a try. But I wont even try until wednesday, that way its been long enough since he re-gurged.
And if that fails, I guess I will try the egg-yolk. That will give me enough time to find/order NB also.
Hope you have a wonderful Valentine week end!

[kitten1506]

Well, my fiance fed Charlie today. He cut off a cut off a pinkie head and put it in the feeder dish. He then went to put Charlie in and before he was even off his hand he started to eat. Guess he was hungry after 13 days without food and 2 re-gurges. So far he has kept the head down. we turned off the timer and are going to keep the warming lamp and pad on together, even at night. Warm side is about 85-90, and the cold side is approx 75 degrees.
Hope he will keep this in.
How many days should I wait now before I feed him another head, and when can we go back to pinkies?
Thanks guys, so much for all your input!!

[kathylove]

Hope it works out ok!

Remember, the mostly likely time for a regurge is about 36 - 72 hours after eating (needs time to start to rot if it is not being digested properly, before it is likely to be regurged). Of course, it can happen sooner, or later, than that, too.

I would wait abut 5 days before the next meal. If a head isn't digested in that time, it is not going to get digested. If successful, I would feed a pinkie head every 5 days 2 or 3 times, then every 4 days 2 or 3 times. If everything is still good after all of that, I would give a tiny pink cut in half 3 or 4 times (every 5 or 6 days). Be VERY, VERY CAREFUL about moving up in size, or you will be right back at the beginning. Always put cuts into dead mice from now on - makes them digest faster and more easily.

Don't breathe a total sigh of relief until at least 6 - 8 whole pinks (with cuts) have been digested without difficulty.

Good luck!

[nrfitchett4]

do you have a petsmart around? you could try the F/T pinkie mice. Those seem to be much smaller than the live ones my petstore had, even on delivery day.
my snake was eating 2 pinkies once a week for several feeds, then she regurged one of the pinks. I went back to one pinkie a week and she has had no more regurges. Now I feed one pinkie every 3-4 days.

[Tracee]

do you have a petsmart around? you could try the F/T pinkie mice. Those seem to be much smaller than the live ones my petstore had, even on delivery day.
my snake was eating 2 pinkies once a week for several feeds, then she regurged one of the pinks. I went back to one pinkie a week and she has had no more regurges. Now I feed one pinkie every 3-4 days.
Every 3-4 days is too soon, you are risking another regurge by not giving her chance to digest the last meal.

As made clear above, when recovering from a regurge you have to be so careful and feed items much smaller than normal. Please take care.

[Tracee]

Every 3-4 days is too soon, you are risking another regurge by not giving her chance to digest the last meal.

As made clear above, when recovering from a regurge you have to be so careful and feed items much smaller than normal. Please take care.
Sorry for the double post, I just wanted to clarify - 3-4 days is too soon because you are feeding whole pinks. Feeding just the head every 3-4 days would hopefully not cause a regurge.

[kathylove]

"Feeding just the head every 3-4 days would hopefully not cause a regurge. "

I would agree, EXCEPT that the first time or two after a regurge, I would give it 5 days because it is more likely to regurge then. The digestive system might be really sluggish right now. After a couple of successful digestions, just a head every 3 or 4 days shouldn't cause a regurge. And for a COMPLETELY HEALTHY snake, a whole pink every 3 or 4 days shouldn't cause a regurge, unless the pink is on the large side for the snake, or temps are less than optimal, or some other stress is causing a problem. However, I don't normally feed snakes more often than every 5 days unless there is some reason, such as very small, frequent, meals to try to build up a problem animal.

[Tracee]

Thanks Kathy; I didn't clarify enough!

[kitten1506]

Hey everyone, so far it has been good. Charlie ate the pinkie as i wrote earlier and has NOT regurgitated it so far. It has been 5 days, or will be in the morning, so we will be giving Charlie another pinkiehead and hope this will also be staying in.

Kathy, I used your feeding tips to pre-make a calendar, which days to feed what size, pinkiehead/halfpinkie/pinkie, in the recommended time frame, and unless he regurges again he should be back to normal baby pinkies by about April.

I took Charlies weight yesterday, he is a lightweight at 13 grams or 3/8 ounce, and is 14.5 inches long. I am hoping that keeping the weekly track of his weight will help me see if he is progressing right, or if his weight will drop.

Thanks again for all the advise and tips!

[kitten1506]

Again, just an update. Charlie has eaten his second pinkie head now on monday and so far has not regurgitated. He seems to be ready for his dinners as he immediately gobbles them down when he sees the head. His next meal is scheduled on Saturday. He seems very alert and is not so shy anymore. I added some vines, plastic-zoo-med product, for climbing and hiding to his tank and he seems to like that as a hiding place.

Further more, we went back to the pet store and talked to the owner and the lady who handles the snakes there and told them about this site and the pinkie-heads and such. They were at first kinda shocked about the cutting off head parts, but a couple days later when we went back for more mice she said she tried the pinkie head on one of the baby snakes that did not want to eat for several weeks and it now did. They also had a bunch of frozen pinkies for me instead of live ones.

And my fiance got a new snake. Go figure. Its a sunkissed corn. He is much bigger already then my Charlie and, we fed him today, also does not waste time getting dinner down.
Today we saw that they had a great new batch of babies delivered and the lady told us that with most she will try the pinkie head thing as they are so small and several had regurgitated upon arrival. She was glad to finally have found a way of being able to help these little ones! They are also now going to carry NutriBac...lol
So thanks again for all the advise and tips and for helping all our babies and the new ones !

[The_Thunderer]

This is GREAT! Learning for yourself is one thing... but passing it on to the STORE you bought from... that is another thing altogether. Kudos to you... and congrats on getting yours to eat and for your fiance's new acquisition!

[kathylove]

That is great that the shop is willing to listen to advice. Are they piling all the babies in together in a cage, or are they willing to separate them? That alone can solve a lot of problems.

[kitten1506]

Kathy, they have all the babies in individual little plastik reptile containers about 4*6 inches ones the arrive at the store. You know the ones with the slotted lids? when they receive them they are in little round white containers with clear lids.
they are all individually kept and labelled.

I guess it all has worked out well at last. Hope that Charlie will continue to do great.
We are already making plans on building our own viv's to accomodate growth of the snake...lol.

thank you everybody. Y'all rock!

[nrfitchett4]

Every 3-4 days is too soon, you are risking another regurge by not giving her chance to digest the last meal.

As made clear above, when recovering from a regurge you have to be so careful and feed items much smaller than normal. Please take care.

the frozen pinks are much smaller than the live ones were. And I had fed her two. I don't think these even weigh one gram. To me, as long as they poop after their last meal, it should be o.k.
http://cornutopia.com/Corn%20Utopia%20on%20the%20Web/-%20CARE%20SHEET%20Cornutopia%20corn%20snakes%20cor nsnakes.htm
kathy love says 3-5 days. I wait till she starts "hunting" around the cage.
I was only trying to offer a suggestion since the petsmart pinkies were very small.

[nrfitchett4]

sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I am feeding every 3-4 days for a normal feeding schedule, not regurge. I am about to upgrade to larger pinks, so i am going to back it down some as well.

[kathylove]

Actually, the care sheet is meant for well established babies that are not having any difficulties at all. And the accelerated schedule would be just for a few months during heavy growth. I think I will amend it as I don't want anyone thinking I am suggesting that they should feed their snakes every 3 days on a regular basis. I had in mind for typical feedings every 5 days, with an occasional extra meal here and there during that first year when they grow so quickly, thus some feedings only being 3 or 4 days apart.

I think I need to update the care sheet in case it is not clear enough. I don't want to mislead anyone.

[JustineNYC]

the frozen pinks are much smaller than the live ones were. And I had fed her two. I don't think these even weigh one gram. To me, as long as they poop after their last meal, it should be o.k.
http://cornutopia.com/Corn%20Utopia%20on%20the%20Web/-%20CARE%20SHEET%20Cornutopia%20corn%20snakes%20cor nsnakes.htm
kathy love says 3-5 days. I wait till she starts "hunting" around the cage.
I was only trying to offer a suggestion since the petsmart pinkies were very small.

If you are feeding right after the hatchling poops, then they are always digesting. That cant be good. If she is "hunting" after 3 days, maybe you can bump the size up a little. Thats probably better then power feeding.

[kitten1506]

Hello everybody.
Well, Charlie ate his pinkie head again yesterday, before I had time to put him down. He was still hanging on to my hand when he started eating. lol...guess he was really hungry.
My new concern is that I have not noticed that he has pooped yet.
Our other snake ate Thursday and yesterday there was a pretty good size poop in his cage, but Charlie has now eaten 3 heads and still no poop.
Maybe I am just not finding it or something, but I am pretty sure I checked every where except under the moss in his cave since I do not want to disturb him in there.
any idea as to why he would not be pooping?

[danielle]

I would do a real good search cave included before assuming he hasn't pooped, but if that turns up nothing you can try a warm swim. Warm meaning like 80-82 degree water just enough to cover the bottom of a container and let him swim around. Should make him poop very soon, but I'm not sure if that is advised after a regurge so double check that info and of course make sure it is 2-3 days after his last meal.

[kathylove]

Since he is only eating a pinkie head, you may not notice it, since it will be so small. If it gets a chance to dry up at all, it will be really difficult to see. As long as he doesn't look bloated / swollen near the tail (indicating constipation), I would not really worry about it.

[Caryl]

kitten1506, huge congrats on Charlie's progress! It's so cool that the store is interested in improving their care, as well.

[kitten1506]

Hello again,

well it has been over a year since Charlie had his eating dilemma, but I am so grateful for all your guys help!! Charlie is now a healthy, friendly, happy 122 grams brightly colored Mama's boy! We had him sexed at the local Zoo about 1 month ago. He has come a long way in this year.

Thanks again to all of you, for all your advice and encouragement!!!

Charlie and I appreciate all the help!!!

Gratefully, Bea and Charlie

[kathylove]

It is always wonderful to hear that a baby that would have died without intervention is now doing so well a year later. Hopefully the shop has continued to follow your advice, and is also giving out better advice to their own customers these days. Not only did your seeking out advice save your own snake, but possibly many others as well.