To feed or not to feed? Breaking the 10 day regurge rule?

[13mur 6]

I've got a pretty hard question,

I'm sure you've heard me ranting about my one normal that has all these problems, and with his once a month regurges he's missing a lot of meals. He regurged 5 days ago, and before that he had 2 meals since his last regurge (he was actually doing pretty good before that going 2 months with no regurges). But this time something's different, he's coming out of his hides every night and looking around for something and he's the shyest snake I have. I'm sure he's hungry, but if I feed him now he'll probably regurge anyhow. However, he's so thin that if I wait too long, he'll probably be too weak to even swallow his food.

So do I wait the 10 days and feed (and hope he has enough strength to down his meal and not vomit it back up), or do I cut the 10 day rule and feed him while he's wanting it?

-Lemur 6

[rachel132002]

I don't know much about this at all so don't try unless oyu think it'll work but what about giving him a smaller mouse or if he's on pinks what about 1/2 of one or a head or something just to tie him over, like i said i'm no expert it's just a guess, maybe ith elps?


Rach:confused:

[CAV]

Lemur,

I have fed many times <10 days. If I get a regurge simply because the meal was too large, I'm more likely to feed in 6-7 days vs. 10 days. Rarely has there ever been a second occurrence.

I think that your argument about becoming too weak to eat is valid and worthy of consideration. You as the keeper are better equipped to make this decision that I. But sometimes desperate situations require desperate actions. If you're looking for validation for breaking the 10 day rule, I've done it and view it more as a guideline that a hardened rule. Good luck :)

[13mur 6]

Yeah, there's the problem. I'm feeding him tiny meals (day old pinks, with slashed bellies to ease digestion), and once he keeps those down for a while I move up in size, but it generally leads to regurging.

Someone recommended chopping fuzzies in half length wise and feeding those which I haven't tried yet, but I'll try that if I get a chance (meaning if he survives that long).

But I think both of your are right in that this rule can be broken. Maybe I'll try a day old pinkie chopped in half lengthwise.

Funny thing is, fecals come up negative.

-Lemur 6

[CAV]

I have a yearling snow that has had similar feeding issues. Currently, he is only 24g. I have just got him to keep down a small fuzzy. I increased feeding frequency to every 2-3 days and then increased the quantity from 1 to 2 pinkies during each session. I don't know if that helps any.......

[CornCrazy]

I have personally fed <10 days after a regurge as well. I have a 6 year old corn who is having trouble bouncing back after laying her eggs this year. She is on the small side (just about 3 1/2 feet long and around 450-500 grams at her largest). She laid 23 eggs this year (up from 8 last year which was her 1st time breeding). Anyway, it has taken it's toll on her. She seems to not be able to keep down fuzzies, but I have found that she can keep down a rat pinky. I guess it is easier to digest even though it is the same size as a fuzzy. I was wondering if you have tried a rat pink. Maybe your snake would be able to keep it down if she is not able to keep down fuzzies.

[13mur 6]

Also another question.

When you snakes regurge, do your mice look deflated or still intact? Normally if any of my other snakes regurge, the mice sort of look deflated and wet. This snake, the regurge looks as if the pinkie wasn't even touched from when I gave it to the snake.

I guess I'm sorta pointing at the snake's stomach not being "digestively strong" enough to break into the mouse itself. I'm giving GSE in the water currently, but is there any other way to increase "the acidity" of a snake's stomach?

And the vet is out of the question, the vet would probably end up killing this poor guy.

-Lemur 6

[CAV]

I don't know if this is acceptable to you but you might try leaving the pinkie out at room temp for >16-18 hrs before feeding. They tend to get ripe, but they also start to break down and get mushy. Another option is rolling it between your fingers to "soften" the pinkie before it is consumed. I'd equate this to tenderizing a steak before cooking. Sounds wild, but I think you need to start thinking outside the ole box at this point.

[CornCrazy]

Is this the same snake you were trying probiotics on?

When my snake regurges, the mouse is usually pretty whole, but is softer than when the snake ingested it. I don't know if there is a way to increase the acidity of the snakes digestive fluids or not. I can't think of anything that would be safe.

[Chip]

I actually froze a yearling this summer going through what sounds like the same thing. Maybe I had a more frequent "puke" problem, but also I may have given up too soon. She was a looker (perfect pattern and coloring nicely) I'd planned to keep, but worn thin by consistent puking one of three times fed. I just looked back on her records and she'd even tossed cookies as a 4 month old. After that she'd take a head, a half, a whole, get me thinking she was fine, and then do it again. So I kept her on pink parts, which would inevitably (right when I thought she was better) be regurged! :confused: :mad:

I'd held her back for breeding purposes, and she only fed when in a deli cup anyway, so I didn't give her the benefit of the doubt to turn her loose in the wild (I only do that with hatchling non-feeders). She only shed twice in her whole year of life after the problem arose. She just wouldn't die or get better and grow, so I did what I thought was best.

I'm not suggesting you cull the snake, but the only poor feeder I ever kept into adulthood I eventually gave away at three or four years of age ...who was tiny for an adult and still had issues feeding and keeping down large (well, normal for her size) meals. I just freeze such specimens anymore unless someone really wants to work with them, and even then I've yet to see a robust healthy adult that I gave up on...with the exception of poor feeding hatchings, they can cartainly turn around. But once a winter has passed with no improvement, I give up on them. My trials of brumating pesky hatchlings has almost certainly been more successful than keeping them warm and dragging them along. Not that either are guaranteed... I wish you the best and would love to hear a success story from this issue. I've yet to have one...:(

[13mur 6]

Yep, this is that same snake. It's also the same snake that had the Proteus infection and went through the course of baytril, and the same snake with that swollen belly that came and went, and the same snake with the wierd undigested poop.

But Elrojo, my snake sounds just like that. Pukes every 3rd meal and gives me a puke out of the blue when everything seems to be going fine. The only difference is my snake is close to 2 years old now and the problem started a year ago, before that he was healthy as can be. Also, the last shed this snake gave me was in December.

He looks VERY keen on eating though. He's normally extremely shy, but now he's out an about on evenings and mornings and when I point a finger at him, instead of running away, he comes to take a closer look. It's been 6 days since his regurge, so I think it's about time I fed him. I just need to find a day old pink.

I'll try chopping the pink in half first, and then if that doesn't work, I'll try CAV's suggestion (though I'm a bit worried that decomposition would be bad, but at this point, I'm willing to try anything).

-Lemur 6

[13mur 6]

K, I just fed Conundrum, and although he was a little confused, he ate the mouse half just fine. I couldn't find a day old pinkie, so I just cut up the smallest fuzzy in my freezer and gave him a decent sized portion (the frozen mice at the pet store were absolutely disgusting, plus they had a ton of other wierd things in there, a Tokay gecko, some wierd black and orange dotted frogs, no clue what they were for, the look like previous pets, NEway I digress).

He got some blood smeared on his paper towel in the cage, and the wierd thing is, he's out cruising his cage, totally ignoring me watching him. I hope he's just hungry for more, and not looking for a place to puke.

-Lemur 6

[Chip]

that he's hungry looking for more. :D Sadly, he could still be soon to puke...:mad: I wish you the best with the fella. Keep us updated.
Also, just how important is this little guy to your collection? Not trying to rush him to the freezer, just curious. :confused: Did you hatch him or buy him?

Mainly I ask because I have a terrible (almost zero percent) track record with such specimens. And all have come from purchases.

[13mur 6]

Well been 12 hours and no puke, so far so good.

Yeah, this guy's pretty important (actually all my snakes are pretty important since I have so few of them and I don't breed them). He's my only normal, and bought him at a petstore before he rotted or got eaten in that horrible cage they had him in with that milk snake (don't know if you can consider that "saving" a snake). Also, thus far, he's been the only snake where I've had so much trouble (a challenge?).

Also, I hate losing any pet, even if it's due to natural cause, and especially if it was my own neglect. I'll do what I can to keep them alive to the bitter end, and hopefully they find the strength to turn around and heal up.

The ONLY time I'll put an animal in the freezer or CO2 chamber is when the animal is clearly suffering and is on his way out, or if they are an unnecessary burden to another animal (my mice sort of like it when I take half their litter to cull, they seem to let out a big sigh of relief, though they get real spazzy if I take cull their entire litter).

-Lemur 6

[limey]

i just had a thought(some one may have already mentioned it) but have you tried putting a tiny amount of the white feces from a healthy snake (corn) in the water of the ill one ? i knwo this might sound a bit strange but i heard it works. I have never tried it myself but it woudl kinda make sence. The idea being that there is some gut bacteria in the healthy snakes feces and if they were reintroduced to a gut the woudl multiply again. Seeing as you seem to be out of options mayeb its worth go ?
I also mention this because i had a terrible yearling who just would not eat for weeks on end then she would eat maybe one fluff. I put her in another snakes cage (identical in size water bowl etc) while i was clearing the cage. I obvoiusly got distracted (probaly the phone) cam e back and finfished the cage but forgot to seperate the two snakes again...............three days later and i lift the hides to feed the snake and i find two in one cage. So i put the problem yeraling back in its cage try and fed it no luck. Then i try again a week later and it eats that was 1 month ago, now it happly eats 6 to 8 fluffs a week in two meals !!!. The only explaination i have is that the snake i put it in with does soil it's water ..... so just maybe it does work

good luck

[13mur 6]

hmm... I think I have a big problem. My snake currently is out of his hide just lying still and has his head on a swollen stomach. He hasn't regurged, but I think it's because he doesn't have the strength to. To give you an idea of how thin he is, he's 2 ft long, but only as wide as my pinky finger. He seems mostly unresponsive, the most he'll do is sort of look toward me when I'm near the tank.

So I'm fairly certain he's in pain, I just hope he can digest his meal before it rots in his belly.

Now that I think about it, I think he might have a perforated stomach (Swells when he eats a meal, undigested poop, regurges out of no where, no parasites or bugs, etc).

-Lemur 6

[Hurley]

I'd be surprised if he had a perforated stomach causing his problem all along (although it's a possibility now), as a perforated stomach would have killed him long ago.

If we wipe out the bacterial causes, other things I've thought of while reading your posts have been lack of intestinal flora (eluded to by limey with the thought on getting normal snake fecal matter into this one). With all the antibiotics tried, it wouldn't surprise me if the little thing had either just a general lack of bacteria, or an overgrowth/unbalance of gut flora. Foals eat their mother's feces to inoculate their gut, we give 'rumen liquor' to calves (rumen liquor is taking fluid from a normal cow's rumen to transfer some normal gut flora to the calf). With the probiotics you've tried, I don't know how much of a consideration this is. I'm not that sure that the contents of the probiotic are the same as the snake's gut flora requirements, but it was worth a try.

The other thing that crops to mind is exocrine pancreatic insufficiency. If they aren't manufacturing the enzymes to digest their food, I would bet the food just sits there until it rots and causes a regurge....would also account for the undigested poop and the fact that this has gone on forever. Usually in mammals this causes a greasy, voluminous type of stool since they are unable to digest their food. In all honesty, I don't know how a reptile's digestive system equates. I know the pancreas and spleen are combo'd into one organ. I'm guessing they don't rely as heavily on the stomach acid macerating their food since they pass through deflated skins and such, whereas the normal mammal's stomach generally prevents particles greater than 3 mm from passing the pylorus of the stomach (although this isn't absolute, obviously, thinking of dogs passing rocks and socks and things). I wonder if the pancreas and its production of enzymes are more important to the snake than the acidity of the stomach in food breakdown.

That being said, I wonder if supplementing with Prozyme (enzyme supplement) would have made a difference.

Him sitting there currently with his head on his stomach suggests to me that he has a whopping stomach ache right now. If he's fairly unresponsive, unfortunately, I would say he doesn't have the best chance at surviving, and for that I am sorry.

These are just some abject ramblings I was thinking of while reading through this thread. Take them for what they are worth as my opinion.

Good luck to your little one.

[Tim Madsen]

Have you tried G.S.E. (grapefruit seed extract)? I've had real good results with a western hognose that had the same problem.

[13mur 6]

Yep, been giving GSE like everyday for months now.

Actually, update: He pooped. But it wasn't very nice poop. It was very pale and it was like a puddle and smelled horrendous (and nope, it wasn't a regurge, saw him poop), and I had to run to class before he finished pooping so I didn't get to take a good look until after it sorta dried out. But it might be blood that I'm seeing... :( . It's brown, but it looks like dried blood brown, so I don't know if it's blood or just diarrhea. I use paper towel for bedding so it dries it out fast, but the brown part looks like what happens when you get a cut, and wipe it with a wet paper towel, and then the paper towel dries and you get that speckled brown on the towel.

It could also have been the blood of the mouse which he didn't digest properly...

I need to go clean his cage out now and give him a look over. Mebbe I'll put some of Lillith's poop into his water and give him some probiotics in the next meal. (Phew) and I thought he was going to die yesterday.

-Lemur 6

[bmm]

Well I am no exerpt but I did read all these posts in detail and I have a small (but possibly stupid) idea.

Maybe, since its obvous this guy is having trouble digesting meals, you should try feeding him something else that won't rot in his stomach before digestion and maybe get him some nutrients, and if nothing else, some moisture. Maybe you could either try meat baby food, or blended mice. You'd probably have to either use mouse skin to hold this together so he would eat it (gagging here! lol) or force/tube it into him.

Although who knows if he can even handle that.

Or maybe OVER freezing mice. Doesn't freezing break down mice a bit making them generally easier to digest? Again, I am no expert and not a science person....lol...

I hope he makes it.

bmm

[13mur 6]

Hmm... Don't think I want to force anything into him since he's eating fine, but you might be onto something... a cooked mouse, or a "tenderized" mouse (there's the stuff you can sprinkle onto your meats, some sort of protease) might sort of ease digestion (or stave of decay for a little more so he can digest the food), but I wonder how safe that would be.

Maybe I'll try a smaller section(s), and feed him probiotics with the food for now and if it doesn't work I'll try more drastic things (hopefully he won't regurge the next couple meals).

Is there any way to give probiotics through the water besides using snake feces (fresh poop isn't available everyday)? (i.e. would it be prudent to spill out the contents of an acidophillus capsule or a squirt of benebac into the water?). He seems to drink quite often, atleast once a day. But I do remember a point when this snake has been at this stage (pooping pale stinky puddles) and using probiotics "cured" him, sorta.

-Lemur 6

[bmm]

Young Iguanas also eat adult crap like someone mentioned another animal doing above.

I do not know how the best way to get that into the snake would be myself though it sounds like a good idea.

I really hope you can figure this one out. It sounds like the little thing will need food that is already easy to digest or on it's way to digesting, however you can make that happen. I understand not wanting to tube feed him as he is eating on his own.

You know some snakes will take those snake sausages....maybe you can make your own with easily digested ingredients, or maybe the actual snake sausages WOULD help your little guy since they are mouse parts grinded up, minus intestines and hair and what not.

bmm

[kenalotia]

Rather than trying to force another snake's poo down your snake's throat, I can suggest another possibility. This is taken from iguana care, rather than corn snakes, but it occurred to me after reading bmm's last post that it could be worth a try.

You can get Acidophilus tablets in a natural foods or health store. You can then take a small part of a tablet and grind it into a powder. Maybe dip a pinkie butt in the powder, like you would with vitamins, and feed to your snake. The Acidophilus are a kind of gut fauna and (in humans and igs, at least) can help get thigns back to normal in the digestive track. It's also safer than using poop, and I first heard of its use when someone suggested using it instead of poop for an iguana. If you can't find the tablets, or don't want to buy a whole bottle just for this, yogurt usually has the same kind of stuff in it. However, since reptile digestive systems are not designed for dairy products, be careful with it...

[13mur 6]

Thanks exactly what I did the last time he had undigested poo, and is what I plan to do this time too, except I used the capsules instead of tablets. But thanks for the tip Kenalotia.

-Lemur 6

[MissHisssss]

I see all has been quiet for a while on this thread, but it sounded like what I've been going through with one of my corns and thought I'd share a little of my experience.

I got E T last year as a hatchling. For several months he never missed a meal and never puked... then my nightmare began. At first he regurged only once in a while, but it increased as time passed till it got so bad that he never held one down. It got to where I felt guilty waiting 10 days to feed him after each puke because he acted as if he was starving. So I'd only wait about 3 days. Finally, one day when he puked only AN HOUR after feeding so I said to heck with it... and turned right around and fed him again. This time with a new born pink. He kept it down. The next day he was begging for more, so I waited a day and gave him another new born. He kept it down. So I kept giving him a new born every two or three days because he kept begging. Then I tried a little larger size and he kept it down too. But as soon as I tried a very small fuzzy that was the same size as the pinks he was now keeping down.... he regurged it. I guess hair is too much for him.

It seems so odd to be feeding a yearling such small pinks... but if he's keeping them down, I'll do it. But by what I've been reading I have a feeling that there is something that is keeping these snakes from digesting normally and their furture doesn't sound very exciting. Oh, I didn't give mine antibiotics, just GSE just before I changed the size of his food. I wonder if it's genetic, or the temperature of the eggs when incubated that is causing his innerds not to work right. I wish I knew.

I thank you all for all your words. This has been very trying for me and my LITTLE E T, and often wonder if I should just go a head and put him down.

I LOVE these forums
MissHisssss

[13mur 6]

Hi everyone,

Conundrum wasn't doing too well at all. I caught him pooping and close inspection of the fresh poo indicated something was seriously wrong. The strange purplish hue pointed to internal bleeding. I put him down last week after he refused 3 meals and by that time he wasn't even strong enough to really support his own body (he kept searching for a place to rest his head when I picked him up and he sorta hung limply. One he got his head rested he stopped moving).

I guess I forgot to tell everyone because I was so busy with the necropsy.

Necropsy revealed some interesting things. He had a very spotty liver and the liver was very pale compared to a normal liver (a very faded pink color compared to a good healthy maroon color), the spots were whitish/greyish and slices of the liver showed the spots were distributed throughout the inside and not just on the surface. Looks like some sort of cancer. Gall bladder also worried me, since it was more a yellow than a green.

His stomach had what looked like an ulcer lower down where it turns into the intestine. It was small, and looked like one of those annoying sores you get on the inside of your lip when your fatigued (white raised lump with a red depression in the middle). Probably got this from eating a chopped in half mouse, since those bones were sort protruding and may have poked him. But the rest of his GI tract was unremarkable.

Everything else seemed semi-normal for a snake in his condition; heart seemed okay, lungs were okay color, kidneys were sort of okay, brain looked fine for the most part (took me a while to tease his skull apart), no strange artifacts anywhere in the body, no obstructions.

I don't have a digital camera (or any camera for that matter), so sorry I couldn't post a pic better explaining what I found.

I'm a little less interested in the stomach ulcer than I am in the liver spots, they remind me of liver metastasis seen in human beings and especially the discoloration of the liver points to something being off (not enough blood flow, low nutrient content). Also it's really wierd that a snake only about a year old started getting liver mets, since 99% of the time in humans it's the older people who have them, but I'm not 100% certain that they are without doing sections. I know it's not uncommon for mice to get tumors since I had to cull a colony after some of the females starting growing lumps (breast cancer), and I'm not the only person I know who had mice that had tumors.

I wish I had a microtome, and a decent microscope, those sections might tell a good story. For now, I'm fixing some samples in 90% ethyl alcohol, hopefully I'll have access to a microtome and a microscope somewhere soon.

I guess this entire time (for a year now), I've been treating the wrong thing assuming it was a stomach problem. Without knowing the exact details I could've actually been accelerating his degradation with all the GSE and accidophillus and Baytril. The Baytril especially worries me...

-Lemur 6

[MissHisssss]

I'm so sorry for your loss, and thanks so much for your necropsy report. It must have been difficult to perform.

MissHisssss

[CornCrazy]

I am very sorry. I know you worked very hard trying to pull him through.