Malformed dead babycorn

I've just opened the last egg from the clutch !

In the egg there was a dead, malformed "anery" cornbaby !!

2 of the other babies has a small bump on the spine just above the cloak.

There is just 1 who's perfect .......

I wonder what's gone wrong ?? Does somebody recognize this ?? Please I neeeed help to figure out if it's my fault, so it doesn't happen again !

Re:

At what temperature were you incubating your eggs at?

Sometimes too high of a temperature, 88° F and up for extended periods of time can cause "kinking" of the spine, which I'm guessing is the problem. The safe range most people follow for incubation is 82-85° F. It'll take the eggs slightly longer to hatch, but without many of the hazards that can strike higher incubation temps.

From what I've heard/read, if the kinks aren't too bad, the snake can live normally and the kinks become all but un-noticeable.

However, if the snakes show difficulty in moving, eating, or other life sustaining activities, it would probably be best to euthanize them.

I'm sorry for what happened, sometimes the worst mistakes teach us the fastest. However at a nother life's expense.

=(

Re: Re:

At what temperature were you incubating your eggs at?

Between 75 - 88 f ... but sometimes the tempature ha been upto 91 f .......

So, mayby that's the problem !! I've to bulid a real "eggmashine" neXt season !!

Thanks for the answer !!

It really does sound like your temps were too high. I personally don't like my temps to get anywhere above 85. I prefer around 80 that way if there is a temp spike, it shouldn't be too dangerous. Last year I had a second clutch that all hatched kinked, it wasn't genetic since the first clutch was perfect. I figured it was heat (I had turned up the heat for the second clutches) or lack of nutrition. This year I incubated the same mothers second clutch at room tempreture and there were no kinks at all. I also had one incubator have a bad heat spike this year and the clutches from that incubator had a few kinked babies in them, when the other incubator that did not have the spike had no kinked babies in it. I really think the majority of kinks are due to high temps.

it's not just temperature.

I had 2 from the second clutch of a "double clutcher" that looked exactly like that only with flat, malformed faces to go with the kinking. In that second clutch 19 were laid, 4 were slugs, 2 died during incubation, 11 hatched perfectly healthy and 2 never hatched (and looked like your pic when I opened them).

Incubation temps were maintained at 80-82F.

I'm taking human embryology right now and god I wish developmental problems were as simple as "temps were too high" when it came to vertibrate development. They taught us here in medical school that more than 80% of all birthdefects are of "etology unknown". Billions of dollars in research into embryology and defects and they're still guessing.

Same holds true for your snakie, if at least one other from that clutch hatched you did your job/the best you could.

Good luck

I agree, it is not just the heat, and often these deformed ones (not just kinked) definately have something else going on. But given the temps and the fact that she only hatched one "healthy" animal, I am sure the tempreture didn't help. I also think reptile eggs have considerably different issues than that of warm blooded embryos. I know life has its good 'ol recipe that is very similar in all animals, but I also think reptiles are affected by temps much more. Like I said, I think heat causes the majority. Perhaps lower temps wouldn't have helped the deformed one, but probably would have spared the two with the kinks above the cloaca.

I hatched one like that this year although mine was still alive when it hatched. Out of a clutch of 17 eggs it was the only one with a problem. I put it out of its misery as soon as I found the poor thing.
Being that my temps were kept at a constant 79 to 81 degrees heat probably wasn't the cause. It just seems that some weren't meant to make it.

Good luck with the others.

"Ontogeny Recapitulates Phylogeny" (similar ancestory relates with similar developmental process)

Carol, I think you're a touch off with your correlational preposition. You stated that you think reptile embryo's are more sensitive to temps than human. I think you're basing this on the trend you see with the effects of hot and cold incubation temps of the reptiles compared to temperature changes in humans. Problem is, the human female reproductive system has it's own built in incubator to maintain the perfect (god, in every way believe me) environment for each step of the development process). Especially temperature wise. Even male reproductive systems have temperature control systems that initiate a creamasteric reflex to pull the testis closer to the body when it gets too cold so optimal sperm can be made, the reverse is true for when things get too warm (testis drop)

Rather a more appropreate comparison would be a Hovibator to a Uterus and we all know who would win that contest.

conclusion: embryo's are sensitive to temperature differentials (from natures norm), human and reptile alike, and majority of developmental deformities malformations are eteology unknown (with the exception of obvious extreme conditions like freezing cold or blazing hot WHICH I don't think the original poster presented)

Sorry, just finished another section of embryo studying so maybe thats why my brain is spewing all this crap....

Let me rephrase that... I didn't mean that tempreture doesn't affect mammal embryos, but like you said it has a mother whos body pretty much takes care of and regulates the tempretures. You don't have to tell me, I remember being 8 months pregnant in the middle of September and feeling like I was going to die if I didn't keep cool. But that very fact is why they are not affected the same. They have the advantage of having thier tempreture monitored better than any hovabator. I meant that the eggs are more suseptable (& sensitive) to the surrounding temps becuase they lack the protection of a tempreture regulating womb. If I was pregnant and it was 95 degrees out, I woud be unhappy, but I wouldn't worry about a kinked baby, it would be taken care of. If I had corn eggs at the same temp, I'd be very worried. And even if the mothers system failed and the baby did get "overheated" I think it would just plain have different effects. Negative effects, but still different. And to assume that all embryos are affected the exactly the same by certain conditions seems unreasonable to me.
Anyway, I agree heat is not the only factor, but a big one nonetheless and as far as I can tell you agree that heat can be a factor. I hoped I got it out sounding right this time.

my only difference in opinion (and point) is that they are ONLY more suseptable, not more sensitive.

and just to throw more out onto the table:

[From memory from one of my physio lecture two years ago:]
Thermoregulation of the human body (pregnant or not) includes apendicular and core temperatures. 98.7F is actually not your true "core" temperature, however under the tongue and rectally brings you as close to the 100-101 true core temperature. Think of the heart as being the center of your "core" temperature. When you were pregnant (even when you're not) and it was really hot out your body thermoregulates your internal organs, cools them, by increasing the diameter of the vessels in your body and extending the "core temperature area" outward toward your arms and legs making them closer to the 100ish your core normally is. When it is cold out your vessels will get smaller so most of your blood stays in the body cavity (where it can't get made colder) and your body core area shrinks. In both cases your body core temperature is not changing despite environmental temperature extremes. Deviations in the actual body core temperature are known as hypothermia and hyperthermia and result in the denaturation of cellular proteins (why running high temperatures are very dangerous), and death.

The embryo is placed within the core temperature area of the body where the temperature never varies more than 5 degree's. I'm not sure about snake development but I know that the first 4-8 weeks of human development require extremely stable and healthy environmental conditions to prevent defects (i.e. embryo is most suseptible).

In contrast to this maximal 5F differential, corn snake eggs regularly experience day/night temperature fluxuations of 10 ore more degree's F (65F at night and up to 85F during the day in early spring late fall in the south).

Suseptible yes, sensitive no...

and just so you don't think I'm talking out of my ass
here

h0mersimps0n said:

Suseptible yes, sensitive no...

Click to expand...

I agree and I think this is mostly me not phasing things carefully enough, and you reading a little too much into this. I never meant to even imply you were talking out your ass.
Go back and read my second post not being so defensive, I was trying to agree with you for goodness sake. And when I said they are affected much more by the heat I meant because they were more suseptable. However, I still do think different conditions affect different emybros differently. LOL, I am holding on to that one. I am also holding on to the fact that I see lots of evidence, as well as other breeders, that the rate of kinking goes up with higher temps. Now that means exactly what it means, it goes up... meaning there are kinked babies even when temps are OK, but high temps really seem to cause much more. The original poster asked what they could do to have better chances of this not happening again. Since she said temps went up to 91, I think her chances would be much better next year if the temps didn't get so high. I also think there are unknown genetic factors that cause eggs to be either more or less suseptable, but I don't have any evidence for that one, that is why I am plainly stating it as my opinion. And of course, I still agree that deformities can happen no matter what temps are. I really don't see what we are debating except my poor choice of one word. Peace man! I don't need a lesson in thermoregulation, my body does not produce thyroxine so I know more about that than I really care to. Hence even the metabolics in the brain are a little slow so please excuse my lame choice of words. I am really not trying to argue with you.

Homer

You may not realize it, but you're coming off a little hostile, and in a one sided arguement.

Carol simply suggested that heat plays a role in the development of corn eggs, which Karolina25 later confirmed in the following statement:

Between 75 - 88 f ... but sometimes the tempature ha been upto 91 f .......

Click to expand...

And I think she is only trying to clarify her earlier statements, not prolong the discussion.

Just my $.02.

Sorry Carol if I stepped on your toes.

agreed...

wasn't trying to be offensive...

that last comment about my ass was totally in jest...

this has definitely been light-hearted and fun discussion for me, they're training us here in medical school to use the knowledge we have and solve problems with it. I've been addicted to explaning biological things and solving problems. It's an illness, please forgive me if it seemed like I was attacking you...

kind of "thinking out loud" and trying to explain how this all works for my own edification mostly...

sorry again

Hopefully they will also teach you that listening to a patient can give you just as much knowledge as reading a medical book. I have "fired" many a doctor who had thier head so stuck in "medical research" that was 100% funded by pharmaceutical companies (which you really need to read with a grain of salt) that they would never shut up and listen to me. I was very ill for a long time because these doctors refused to adjust my medication when my TSH level was 4.6. Why? Because thier little book said that .5-5.0 was an acceptable range, regardless of my symptoms and my suffering. I finally found a doctor that would ignore what the "books" said and considered my symptoms. By adjusting my meds we found out that I personally need to have a level under 2 to live a somewhat normal life. I could have been spared many months of illness if those "all knowing, much too intellegent to listen to a lowly patient" doctors would have just implimented the KISS system. Ironic thing is about a year after my "keeper" doctor got me fixed up, the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists changed acceptable TSH levels to .3-3.0. Finally some help from the doctors who dared to learn from the little people. As a person beginning in this profession, I wish you the best of luck, we really need good doctors. Things aren't always simple, but some times they are.

That's exactly why I'm at an osteopathic medical school.

With a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.) degree we are exactly the same as M.D.'s with two exceptions. We do osteopathic manipulative treatments and therapies and our principles on medicine Differ.

Maybe you should've been going to a DO

Glad to hear they got you fixed however:

some good reading


Another good site

I worked as an EMT before going to medical schools and I've seen physicians treat nurses and others like they shouldn't and am going to do everything I can to not be like that.

Awesome.