New snake has regurgitated twice. Scaring the hell out of me!

[jr1788]

I recently got a cornsnake as a gift from someone. They bought it from petco and I've had it 3 and a half weeks now. I fed it after a week a thawed out pinkie that was thoroughly defrosted. It took it, and regurged the next day. I waited 10 days and fed it again, it refused food so I waited 3 days and tried once more on monday. It took it this time but last night regurged again. its temp is 70-78 on cool side and 82-88 on warm side. Humidity is 50% and its still extremely active at night. No one has handled it since the day before the first feeding so as to not stress it out. Its about 18" and hasn't lost visible weight. I'm just scared because I don't want it to suffer. It has 2 hides and a climbing branch in its cage and has remained active through both regurges. I'm just freaking out here.

[medusacoils]

I recently got a cornsnake as a gift from someone. They bought it from petco and I've had it 3 and a half weeks now. I fed it after a week a thawed out pinkie that was thoroughly defrosted. It took it, and regurged the next day. I waited 10 days and fed it again, it refused food so I waited 3 days and tried once more on monday. It took it this time but last night regurged again. its temp is 70-78 on cool side and 82-88 on warm side. Humidity is 50% and its still extremely active at night. No one has handled it since the day before the first feeding so as to not stress it out. Its about 18" and hasn't lost visible weight. I'm just scared because I don't want it to suffer. It has 2 hides and a climbing branch in its cage and has remained active through both regurges. I'm just freaking out here.

OK, don't freak out. You need to begin a post regurge therapy, that starts with, Stop Feeding your snake. Don't do it again for at least ten days.

Here is a link the post regurge therapy thread. Follow it!

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28342

Also, check your hunsbandry. Make sure your temps are good, the food is good, etc. Check everything. Also, you may want to get some nutribac and begin using that with your snakes diet. You can find it on Kathy Love's website. This is a dieretic and will help the digestive track of your snake, the same way, you and I would eat yogurt to help us.

After ten day, try feeding only the head of a pinky. Then wait again for another week. If the snake regurges again, you will need to make a trip to the vet.

Take it easy and follow that thread. Hopefully everything will be OK.

Wayne

[jr1788]

Thanks for the quick reply. I got a book for cornsnake caretaking. The temps seem to be fine, and I think or better yet, I thought everything was good. I put it clean water everyday. Imma try the pinkie head. Its my first reptile and I feel awful right now. I really like herps and wanted to eventually buy more. But this is disheartening so far.

[medusacoils]

Thanks for the quick reply. I got a book for cornsnake caretaking. The temps seem to be fine, and I think or better yet, I thought everything was good. I put it clean water everyday. Imma try the pinkie head. Its my first reptile and I feel awful right now. I really like herps and wanted to eventually buy more. But this is disheartening so far.

Trust me, you came to the right place if you want to talk snake addiction! LOL!! Don't become disheartened, because this unfortunately happens. As long as you deal with it correctly, then you and your snakey will be fine.

Just remember, that you don't want to try to feed again for at least ten days. This is to allow the snake to develop/rebuild the natural stomach flora that was lost during the regurge event. If you feed sooner, the snake may regurge again and your situation could get worse.

Also, check that the feeders you use are the appropriate size. I am not sure why the little one was regurging, but you will want to check everything twice.

When you feed, in ten days, only give the pinkies head and then wait. Do not handle your snake during this time. Let the little one rest. Then wait the full week and if everything goes well, repeat with the pinkies head. You will do this for two to three weeks, assuming that all goes well.

After this time, you will slowly build up to normal size pinkie. Each week, you will give a little bit larger. If something goes wrong, start back at the beginning again.

Good Luck and keep us posted,

Wayne

[jr1788]

Its been 2 days since the last regurge, and my little one is still just as active, however he doesn't seem to leave his little climbing tree. He explores his tank, gets water and even burrows and hides but at least a small part of him remains coiled to that tree. Should I worry about this at all or it possibly just like a comfort zone for my snake?

[danielle]

He's just ajusting just don't feed for ten days and then only the head of the pinky. If he keeps that down feed another head in another 5-7 days, then a half 5-7 days later, and keep it to pinky halfs for maybe a month. They could be too big, or he was fed too soon after coming home most wait a week for the very first feeding to let them settle in. Just keep the meals small and not to close together they can go a month easy with nothing to eat or longer- the most important thing is to let him build his digestive enzymes back up slowly.

[jr1788]

Its been 4 full days since he regurged and he's still as active as ever. I'm still worried simply because it hasn't eaten in 3 weeks. But I'm more at ease now that he's not lethargic or frail. Me and my brothers decided to name him lazarus btw. Simply because we consider it a miracle that he's still quite active after 2 regurges, even if it isn't that amazing, we like to consider him to be a "fighter". Lol. He's searching for a way out of his tank right now as I type. I'm looking forward to thursday/friday to feed him. I really hope he keeps the pinky head down.

[jr1788]

According to my schedule I should feed thursday or friday. Herein lies my question...how do I cut off the mouse head? Do I do it frozen, thawed, or when? And do I feed it just the head or do I give it half a pinkie cut in half vertically? I wanna get this right when it happens. Its been 1 week since it regurged and I'm getting anxious and a bit stressed to see if it will eat and keep everything down.

[medusacoils]

According to my schedule I should feed thursday or friday. Herein lies my question...how do I cut off the mouse head? Do I do it frozen, thawed, or when? And do I feed it just the head or do I give it half a pinkie cut in half vertically? I wanna get this right when it happens. Its been 1 week since it regurged and I'm getting anxious and a bit stressed to see if it will eat and keep everything down.

Yes, use a frozen thawed mouse, warm it up first. Cut the head right off and use a pair of clips or tweezers to feed the snake. Your snake may look like it wants more, but do not give in. The snake should be fine. This is such a small meal. Don't stress over this!

Keep us posted!

Wayne

[jr1788]

I may have worded my original question wrong. Do I cut the head off while still frozen or after its thawed?? I wanna say frozen to avoid a mess but I'm not sure

[medusacoils]

Either - Or! I caught that after I posted. Sorry about that! You are probably better doing it to a frozen pinkie, because you can use the remainder, to feed later on in the month.

Wayne

[jr1788]

Thanks. That's what I figured but you can never just assume. Especially when I'm still new to keeping a snake.

[medusacoils]

Your doing good! Keep asking questions and let us know if you need anything.

Most important, keep us posted!

Wayne

[jr1788]

Its been 8 days tonight. I'm thinking about feeding today, it seems really hungry, but I'm not sure if I should just wait it out another day or 2 before feeding

[jr1788]

I just fed it a pinky head. Its been 8 days. Hopefully it keeps it down. He took it immediately but it looked like he maybe convulsed twice quickly after swallowing and then the lump was almost halfway down its body. As soon as that happened he was back to normal and exploring. Hope its nothing to worry about

[medusacoils]

That should be fine! I would have waited for the full ten days, though. Well, it's done, so let's not worry about it. Do not feed again for at least 7 days. You will feed another pinkie head at this next feeding.

Wayne

[jr1788]

I was gonna wait the full 10 but I have school and work literally all day thursday and friday and finals are up and I have a lot of studying so I didn't want to forget. It seemed hungry and still active and I read in kathyloves guide to wait at least a week but if possible 10 so I figured itd be fine. Let's keep our fingers crossed that everything stays good. Those muscle twitches still scared me a bit. Any insight on that?

[jr1788]

Its been 6 hours since feeding and so far so good. There's no real visible lump, and a quick scan of the viv showed no regurge. Its been in his tree the last few hours but has moved a bit his positioning. I know the next 2 days are important so I will keep posting every chance I get to stop by at home and check on him

[medusacoils]

Great! Now the chance of the snake, throwing up a pinkies head is slim. It's an extremely small meal. The best thing, is to let her rest and keep an eye in there.

Wayne

[jr1788]

Good to know! That eases me a bit. I feel like an overbearing parent. Albeit, I can't touch or otherwise bother my young. Lol. If the odds are slim then I can sleep better and focus more on studying for my finals and just check on it tomorrow between class and work just to make sure its still digesting and not regurging.

[admitchell08]

I may have worded my original question wrong. Do I cut the head off while still frozen or after its thawed?? I wanna say frozen to avoid a mess but I'm not sure

I would definitely cut it off while the pinky is still frozen...I can only imagine how gross and possibly messy it would be if you do it while it was thawed!
That's just how I do it, though.
That way it's a clean cut and there is no icky mess for me to clean up afterwards.

Good luck..I hope it can keep a meal down for you!

[jr1788]

Its been about 18 hours since I fed. No regurge yet so things are looking up. He burrowed and I haven't seen him. I think he's under his water bowl(he likes that spot) which is on the cool side of the tank. Should I worry? Cool side is about 72-78 degrees depending on room temp. Warm sides sitting at 84-88.

[medusacoils]

Let her rest dude! She will be OK! The chances of her regurging a pinkie head is slim. Let her decide what is comfy, as far as temps go. If she poops today or tomorrow, then you are doing good. Wait the (at least) 7 days and do the process again.

Wayne

[jr1788]

Fosho. I haven't bothered the cage, just checked temps and was wondering about temps being to cold. Everything seems to be good

[jr1788]

Just got home from class and no regurge yet! Things are looking good. Last regurge happened just after 24 hrs of feeding. We are almost at 24 hrs since feeding. He's still under the waterbowl I'm assuming. I'm off to work so ill get an update in about 10 hrs. I'm thinking it may have just been too large a pinkie

[jr1788]

Its been roughly 32 hours and no regurge. He came out of his bowl while I was at work and is now in his tree. I'm pretty excited to see a snake turd hopefully in the next few days. Lol.

[jr1788]

Its almost 3 days now and I don't see a lump so I doubt he'll regurge now. I'm happy. I am just waiting for him to poop now. If he doesn't poop by wednesday, do I feed him again as normal or would it wise to take other precautionary steps before?

[admitchell08]

You should continue to be cautious for the next few weeks.
I had a snake regurge a while back, and Don Soderberg of SMR once told me that when that happens, to feed a pinky head 10 days later, and then pinky heads for the following 2 weeks (making it a total of 3 feedings of pinky heads). And then feed the bodies that have no heads for the next three weeks. When that's done, you can start feeding whole pinkies that are sliced multiple times. He said to slice them around the body instead of lengthwise. When your snake regurges, it loses all of it's digestive stuff and while you are feeding those extra small meals, it is slowly building back up. When you get the the size of a full pinky, the slices in the pink help the digestive juices get into the pink quickly to insure that no bacteria on the inside of the pinky has time to build up before it get's digested (which would cause another regurge.) So far, I just now finished my pinky-head regimen and am about to move on to the headless pinky. I'm a little nervous as it is a larger meal. Hopefully it all goes good.

But yeah..pretty much all that rambling I just did is for you to know to continue to be cautious when feeding for the next several weeks. You should also probably avoid handling as much as possible in order to reduce stress and reduce the likelihood of another regurgitation.

Good luck!

:cheers:

Edit: I emailed Don to see if he minds if I copy/paste what he said in the email about the regurgitation protocol.

You can also go to this link (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20965&highlight=kathy+love+regurgitation) and scroll down to where it says "FAQ from Kathy Love on Regurgitation Treatment" and that will give you a bunch of information on the subject, as well. I know that Wayne already posted that on here, but I feel that it would be a good idea for you to look over it again since you are asking if you should resume normal feedings already.

Hopefully all of this rambling I've done has helped at least a little!

[jr1788]

I know I continue the head regimen for a few more weeks, but is it an issue if he doesn't poop? Or I just feed again since he had such a small meal? I haven't handled since he regurged, except to feed him, and I took advantage and cleaned his tank then too

[jr1788]

I'm on my phone so I can't edit. But I didn't mean normal feedings, I actually meant do I feed as normal(just like his scheduled day, regardless if he poops or not) I probably worded it wrong

[admitchell08]

Ah, ok I see. It will be fine for you to feed as long as you can definitely tell that there is no lump in the belly (meaning the meal has been digested). Even of you don't see the poop, it's more than likely going to be somewhere in your snake's habitat, you just aren't seeing it. If you want to be extra sure, you can sift around through the substrate and try to find it. But since you only fed him/her a couple days ago, you've still got several days to go in which he could pass his last meal. I wouldn't stress over anything just yet. Just be glad s/he kept down his last meal! (knock on wood!)
;)

[jr1788]

Yeah, I'm still waiting for the poop but its not too big of a deal since its only been 3 days. I'm ecstatic that he kept his meal down tho. Hopefully we start a good feeding pattern and we don't have to deal with regurges again, or at least not anytime soon. I'm feeding again wednesday night, or thursday night. Thatll be a week and I'm sure it'll be hungry again

[admitchell08]

A week should be ok. Just make sure not to feed in intervals any less than a week when treating a regurge. After you've followed proper protocol, you can slowly work your way back to the schedule your snake should be on. ;)

Good luck!

[jr1788]

I'm thinking imma stick to a 7-10 day cycle for about 2 months then slowly start easing into more frequent feeding depending on how he's doing at the time. But I'm taking it extremely slow right now

[Nanci]

You'll be safe at 5-7 day intervals as long as you stay conservative with the meal size. And keep using Nutribac for a long time. And don't obsess about poo. Do obsess about slitting, once you get up to a whole pink again.

[jr1788]

Gonna try to feed tonight. Hopefully he takes it. Been a week since he ate. No regurge but no poop either. He's still active as can be tho.

[medusacoils]

Gonna try to feed tonight. Hopefully he takes it. Been a week since he ate. No regurge but no poop either. He's still active as can be tho.

Poop happens, just give it time. Also, remember your snake regurged a couple of times and it's digestive system may be a little weird. Jut keep putting it in and eventually, it will come out. Besides, a pinkie head isn't going to create a big poop, so you may not see it. So please, at this point, stop worrying about the poop.

Good luck with the feeding tonight and keep us posted!!

Wayne

PS STOP WORRYING ABOUT THE POO!!

[jr1788]

Lol. I worried earlier last week. Now at this point I'm actually looking forward to it eating tonight so we can continue on the right path

[jr1788]

Attempted to feed last night. I tried dangling and put the head down like I've been doing. It worked with whole mice and last week it worked with just the head. This time I left it and figured he'd eat through the night. But nothing. I woke up and the head was still there. Temps are currently between 72-80 cool side, 82-88 warm side. Humidity is 40%. I figure ill try saturday or sunday again

[Nanci]

That's what I'd do, too. Wait a few days. But I would also feed him in a tiny container.

[jr1788]

I was gonna do the container but I didn't want to stress him out by handling it before and after feeding. Especially after regurges. Once it goes to a whole pink I was gonna start putting him in a separate feeding container

[Nanci]

It won't stress him too much, and if you're really worried, you can just put the container back in his viv when you're done and let him crawl out on his own. I powder the mouse bits I feed snakes that have regurged pretty heavily with Nutribac. Between that and the juice from cutting up the pinks into sections, the snakes are very slimy when they are done eating. I always run them under the kitchen faucet to rinse off, and have never had a problem. If they can do that, a little trip to and from the feeding container isn't going to upset them. I just find that I have much better luck getting a snake to feed if it is in a relatively small container, much less turned loose in the whole viv.

Think very small! (This is El Wray's baby feeding container. He'd been moved up to a Gladware before the regurge. Actually, he'd been moved up to a small Sterilite, and was confused, so he got down-sized to the Gladware. I just didn't want any arguements about eating multiple pieces, so I put him back in his deli).

You can do whatever you want- I'm just saying I've been through this before, and I am super conservative about regurge recovery, and I feel you'll get a better feeding response in a small feeding container. Covered with a dish towel, even.

[dwyn127]

I just didn't want any arguements about eating multiple pieces,

Lovely Nanci, just like Hometown Buffett.;)

[jr1788]

Good to know. Ill go out and buy a small container. All I have is gladware that is probably too big

[Nanci]

Something like a margerine container would be perfect. El Wray is around 25 grams in that picture.

[Caryl]

jr1788, do you have Nutribac on hand? It's amazing stuff, and should be in every herper's cabinet, especially if you have a snake that's had regurge issues. You can get it from Kathy Love. I'm keeping a former problem child on Nutribac indefinitely.

Nanci, I admire your skills at close-up photography. :-)

[jr1788]

I bought a probiotic at the vet here. It called nutri-cal? I'm using a TINY bit because I was told to use only a sprinkle for small snakes. I was thinking of getting nutribac anyways since I'm hearing good things about it

[Nanci]

It sure doesn't hurt to have Nutribac on hand, just in case. I don't know what is in nutri-cal, but Nutribac is _just_ probiotics, so you don't have to worry about an overdose- just get in as much as you (reasonably) can.

I'll keep a snake that has regurged on Nutribac for a year.

[Caryl]

I bought a probiotic at the vet here. It called nutri-cal? I'm using a TINY bit because I was told to use only a sprinkle for small snakes. I was thinking of getting nutribac anyways since I'm hearing good things about it

Nutrical isn't a probiotic. It's primarily an calorie/energy supplier. It's designed for mammals (much higher metabolic rate). It's fabulous for weak puppies and for cats recovering from surgery, but isn't designed for snakes. While a small amount won't hurt, it's not really of much benefit for herps from what I understand.

Go ahead and get the Nutribac. It made a huge difference for one of mine that was having regurge issues.

[jr1788]

Oh okay. The vet here said to try it as a supplement to help him before and after feedings. Imma get on that nutribac quickly then.

[Caryl]

Best of luck with your snake! Keep us posted.

[jr1788]

I just tried feeding in a small container. I am going to leave him with the pink head overnight and see if it gets eaten. I close the lid left some airholes and put it back in the viv so I don't gotta worry about escapes.

[jr1788]

I can't find a way to edit my posts. But nonetheless. He just ate his head. I left him in the container while I played xbox. Look back and the lump is like halfway down his body.

[Cflaguy]

I would continue this routine as well at least for awhile.

[jr1788]

So far it seems like 2 good feedings out of the way. Imma give him a head saturday and the hopefully we can move onto the bodies that are here from the dead pinks. I'm ordering nutribac this weekend. And gonna clean his cage tomorrow since he hasn't been handled since his last regurge.

[danielle]

I wouldn't hanle for a few more days an not feed as soon as Saturday. Feed every 5-7 days and spot clean the poo for awhile he needs time to build his digestive track up an handling along with feedings too close together may cause another regurge.

[medusacoils]

So far it seems like 2 good feedings out of the way. Imma give him a head saturday and the hopefully we can move onto the bodies that are here from the dead pinks. I'm ordering nutribac this weekend. And gonna clean his cage tomorrow since he hasn't been handled since his last regurge.

Sounds like things are on the up and up!!

Wayne

[jr1788]

I wouldn't hanle for a few more days an not feed as soon as Saturday. Feed every 5-7 days and spot clean the poo for awhile he needs time to build his digestive track up an handling along with feedings too close together may cause another regurge.
I fed sunday, so I figured saturday would be good. We would be at 6 days then.

[danielle]

Oh sorry yes that is perfect!!

[medusacoils]

I fed sunday, so I figured saturday would be good. We would be at 6 days then.

Sounds good to me!

Wayne

[jr1788]

Got home today and finally saw poop today. Pretty happy

[jr1788]

And it happily accepted another head today. Time to get to bodies that are slit next week.

[medusacoils]

Things sound good! Thanks for the updates!

Wayne

[Caryl]

I can't find a way to edit my posts.

I'm so happy to read that your snake is doing well! As for being able to edit your posts, that's a perk that comes with being a contributor to the site. (The price is a very reasonable $25 per year - well worth paying to correct the typos, let alone to help support this site where I've learned so much IMHO!)

[jr1788]

I'm so happy to read that your snake is doing well! As for being able to edit your posts, that's a perk that comes with being a contributor to the site. (The price is a very reasonable $25 per year - well worth paying to correct the typos, let alone to help support this site where I've learned so much IMHO!)
I thought it was my phone acting funny since I only post from it. Imma have to contribute now. If not for this site surely I wouldn't have had any idea how to care for my snake after the regurges

[jr1788]

So I tried feeding yesterday and he didn't take. Imma feed on wednesday. On a side note, when I picked up to put him in his feeding container I noticed the belly scales right under his mouth and neck were like filthy. They weren't swollen and I've checked him for mites and he doesn't seem to have mites that I can see but the first 10 or so belly scales were bordered in this brown dirt like thing while the rest of his body is perfectly normal. He hasn't been acting any differently. And I clean his cage the second I see poop or pee. Warm side is constantly in mid 80s cool is between 72-80. Humidity is usually around 40-50. I'm not sure why his scales would look like this. I've had him about 2 months and he hasn't shed so maybe he might shed soon. Idk

[Nanci]

If he goes blue, or you suspect he will soon, I wouldn't feed!! Can you get a picture of the scales?

[jr1788]

Ill try getting a pic today when I get back from work

[jr1788]

<a href="http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img00032200906080919.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9465/img00032200906080919.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a><br /><br /><a href="http://img604.imageshack.us/content.php?page=blogpost&files=img211/9465/img00032200906080919.jpg" title="QuickPost"><img src="http://imageshack.us/img/butansn.png" alt="QuickPost" border="0"></a> Quickpost this image to Myspace, Digg, Facebook, and others!

[jr1788]

Here are the direct links since its hard to directly attach the pics with my blackberry. You can see the difference in the scales in the 2 pics.
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2275/img00020200906080915.jpg
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9465/img00032200906080919.jpg

[jr1788]

The yellow in the second pic is also just a reflection from the flash. I've checked him as in depth as I can and its no yellow or pus. Its just a flash effect

[jr1788]

First pic. Sorry. The yellow in the first pic is just flash effect

[Nanci]

I can't tell...I guess I'd see if he's going to shed soon, and if it's gone after that.

[jr1788]

That's what I'm hoping. Imma give him a week or 2 and if it isn't gone then imma go with a vet visit

[Caryl]

It almost looks like it's just normal color showing up on the ventrum, but under the chin/neck isn't the usual place for that to show up first. You might try wiping the folds and scales with a cotton swab soaked with room temperature water. If the discoloration comes off, great. If not, no harm done. Like Nanci says (I say that a lot - Nanci gives great advice!) you'll know more after a shed in any case.

[jr1788]

Thanks for the advice. I already tried cleaning him with a cotton swab tuesday night and nothing changed. He hasn't behaved differently so I'm hoping its nothing. I also figured out his eating habit. Unless its absolute darkness he wont eat. When I fed sunday it was light out, and the last time he rejected food it was the same situation. When he has eaten he is in complete darkness because I was cleaning his viv and had him in a container and put him in my closet on a rack so my dogs wouldn't find him. So I am putting him in his small container than covering it with a paper bag so he can eat and then ill just put him back in his viv. Since I wasn't cleaning out his viv sunday and he's already out of sight for my dogs I just locked my door and put him in a small container but there was sun coming in. He refused to eat.