Warm, helpful thoughts needed!

[Rich in KY]

OK guys here is the situation. Many of you remember my new lil' guy from Rich Z

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u190/dirtyjedi/017-2.jpg

Since I have received him, he has refused to eat. I have tried several attempts (listed below) all pinks are 1 day old pinks ordered from Rodentpro and are warmed with hot tap water

07/08 refused brained pink

07/13 refused pink dipped in chicken broth

07/18 refused pink dipped in tuna water

07/23 refused 1/2 pink

07/28 refused washed pink

I am trying to get a LIVE 1 day old pink. This has turned out to be very difficult.

If I am unable to get a live pink, my next attempt will be using an anole to scent the pink. Or possibly even the tail of an anole.

I am open to other suggestions. I have seen Nanci suggest using chicken fat. Nanci if you read this, can you explain this. Is it as simple as pulling the skin off of a piece of fried chicken and rubbing a pink?

Even if you do not have any suggestions, at least send warm, fuzzy thoughts to get my lil' guy to eat please!

[Nanci]

Hi Rich...I've just read of the chlcken fat, not tried it myself. As I understand, it's the fat right froma cooked piece of KFC. I think at this point I'd go straight to anole-scenting, though, or even a tiny baby anole. Can you get them?

[Rich in KY]

Hi Rich...I've just read of the chlcken fat, not tried it myself. As I understand, it's the fat right froma cooked piece of KFC. I think at this point I'd go straight to anole-scenting, though, or even a tiny baby anole. Can you get them?

There are not many anole to choose from in this area. I think the best I will be able to do is get one to scent with. Thanks, Nanci

[LBoz]

Rich, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. It's so completely frustrating, isn't it? That little rosy I got from Dean didn't eat from August until after brumation in Feb. It's maddening.

I read somewhere on Fauna that a guy had used KFC scent on a pink and it worked like a charm. I can't remember exactly, but I think he just used the grease from the carton and rubbed the pink on it.

I have so many mice here, I wish I could send you one. How far are you from me (INDY)? I could meet you half way. Up for a road trip?

[The_Thunderer]

Hey, Rich... Can't really help much, except to send the "warm, helpful thoughts". I've been there man and know how absolutely infuriating it this can be. I certainly hope all goes well and he gets eating soon.

We're with ya!

[LBoz]

Hey Rich....just checked mapquest. It's not that far at all. 4 hours total. I can bring you pinks AND a few gravid mice if you'd like. PM me if you want them.

[Rich in KY]

Rich, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. It's so completely frustrating, isn't it? That little rosy I got from Dean didn't eat from August until after brumation in Feb. It's maddening.

I read somewhere on Fauna that a guy had used KFC scent on a pink and it worked like a charm. I can't remember exactly, but I think he just used the grease from the carton and rubbed the pink on it.

I have so many mice here, I wish I could send you one. How far are you from me (INDY)? I could meet you half way. Up for a road trip?

Thanks for the offer Lori. I will keep the road trip in mind if I get a couple more refusals.

Hey, Rich... Can't really help much, except to send the "warm, helpful thoughts". I've been there man and know how absolutely infuriating it this can be. I certainly hope all goes well and he gets eating soon.

We're with ya!

Thanks, Fred. I knew there were people on here who would understand and be supportive!

[Asbit]

Rich...The only other idea :idea: I can think of you have probably tried, but I will mention anyway just in case. Put the scent and brain hot pink/pink head in a very small container with lid and air holes and put in to his viv in the middle, not warm side and leave over night.

Other than than I understand how upsetting :cry: and frustrating :headbang: it is to try and get them to eat,not to mention how worried you must be getting. That little one really is a pretty one, all my good warm fuzzy thoughts and prayers are coming your way. Keep us posted and let us know what happens.

Tisha

[Shaky]

I always try live in a brown lunch sack overnight. I bet a live pinky would work.
Aside from chicken fat, I've heard chicken broth works.

[kaliqueensnake]

If you want live pinks put an ad in the paper. Someone who has them or knows where to get them will surely respond.

[COerriccaRN]

My baby ate a live baby anole. She also seemed to like a pinky rubbed with beef liver juice?

[Kali]

I know how you feel and wish you a speedy success at getting him to eat for you !!
I have several from my clutch that just won't understand that a pinky really is a GOOD thing to eat. They refused just thawed, scented with tuna or chicken fat, brained, leaving overnight, putting together in small space, live and washed. not easy to get an anola scent. I finally started forcefeeding. :( I had someone who knows how to handle that show me how to do it. A few are now beginning to start eating themselves as soon as the pinky is halfway in.
Not a very fun thing to do, for me nor for them. Hopefully they'll start eating soon. Last year I also had a few like that, took them a few weeks to get it right...

[tom e]

Hey Rich! The chicken thing is probably a good way to go. After feeding live then frozen thawed baby finches to my little anarexic, I've discovered that she will indeed take pinks washed then rubbed (really well) with a piece of raw chicken breast.
She refused most recently, but she usually takes them!

[crackerhead]

Hi Rich:
You have listed what you are offering but not how you are offering it. That might be wherein the problem lies. So please bear with me for I mean no offense. I've had some mighty fussy feeders and sometimes it's a combination of things. If the little guy is a nervous twitch maybe feeding in his home, normally a no no, would give him the security he needs to take on the vulnerable task of eating. I would also make sure I was feeding at night when they normally would be hunting. Misting the habitat sometimes helps with intensifying the scent. A washed live day old pink is probably the best place to start. Leave it in with the hatchling overnight and no peeking till morning. If the little guy isn't skittish then try tease feeding. I have bloodreds that have responded very well to this approach when all else failed. Kathy Love describes it very well in her book. If you have other babies sometimes feeding them in mass triggers others to eat as well. I liken this to the sibling rivalry effect. This same tact works with reluctant breeders sometimes too! I would exhaust everything before I went to anoles. OMG that's a pain in the butt. Although I'm very astute at the skinning process.:laugh: I truly feel for you. The only thing more frustrating is a regurger. At least with a stubborn feeder you can always force feed till feeding kicks in but a regurger will simply spit it back in your face for your troubles. Best of luck and hang in there.
Terri

[wade]

Rich, PM me your address and I'll overnight a preg female or a batch of babies to you. Well do it quick, quiet, and under the radar.

[Asbit]

It's all the great people like those of you who have responded here, and your wonderful offers that are why I love this forum so much. Rich you have definitely come to the right place for help.

[Tim66/corns]

Rich I hope he eats for you soon. You will be in my thoughts.

[LBoz]

Rich, PM me your address and I'll overnight a preg female or a batch of babies to you. Well do it quick, quiet, and under the radar.

Is that possible? I was going to meet him on Monday...but if they can be overnighted, that will get them to him much faster.

Or are you just being a doink again?

[Khaman]

Rich,

I need more info;
When you say half of a pink, does not mean a pinky head?

What did you wash the pink in? Ivory works for me.

What are your temps like I have had some that refuse at 80F but would eat at 78F.

Tease feeding might work. Is he nippy?

I also have FL anoles in my freezer if you need one for scenting.

Also don't forget I am across town if you need anything.

[wade]

Is that possible? I was going to meet him on Monday...but if they can be overnighted, that will get them to him much faster.

Or are you just being a doink again?

Doink? Did you say Doink? Lori, I’m telling you girl, you are really pushing me here. Doink, I can’t believe she said that. Doink, what is a doink, who would know? Grrrrr….

Yes you can ship live mice overnight, just not legally. Quietly under the radar.

[LBoz]

Doink.

.....

[Asbit]

Lori...Wade... you two kill me ROFLMAO!!:laugh:

[LBoz]

Shhh...don't encourage him, Tisha! ;)

[wade]

I'm dying here and you're making jokes. I'm going to get you one day Lori, you just wait and see.

[Asbit]

ok ok kids behave now....I have been on holidays for 2 weeks already and been bored outta my skull except when on here and now you two start acting like a pair of kindergarten clowns and I can't stop giggling....I know I know i need to get out more!!! Just look at my signature I don't have time to get out!!

[Khaman]

Yes you can ship live mice overnight, just not legally. Quietly under the radar.

Why not legally?

[LBoz]

Wade started it. :P

Rich, sorry that Wade hijacked your thread. I'm still sending chicken scented warm fuzzies with hopes that your baby eats. Let me know about Monday.

[RobbiesCornField]

Why not legally?

It's a fuzzy mammal. Fuzzy mammals are too cute to be put in a box.

[wade]

I didn't hyjack it. I'm trying to be part of the solution you Doink. I can ship tomorrow for friday delivery. If I put them in a sound proof box, no one will know. I'll lable it Live Harmless Reptiles.

[LBoz]

But he needs one day old pinks. Got those, old man??

[wade]

Ya, I've got some, probably, I'll have to go look, I should. I'm sure I can find a preggers female ready to pop. (that is J9 speak).

Lori, I've never seen this mean side of you before. It's kind of turning me on.

[LBoz]

Lori, I've never seen this mean side of you before. It's kind of turning me on.
Doesn't take much, does it? :laugh: (I'm calling Vicki.)

Well, if you're going to actually do that, let both of us know. That will prevent him from having to road trip half way to Indiana. I don't mind, either way.

[wade]

Rich hasn't responded since we started this silliness. If he wants me to and sends me an address I will ship him a mouse. Up to him.

[LBoz]

My mice are cuter. :P

[wade]

I'm going to go lie down. I just can't do this any more. Drugs kicking in.

[danielle]

Wade needs to share:)

[Rich in KY]

Thanks for the thoughts and ideas everyone!

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond but I am working 3rd shift so I sleep during the day.

[vetusvates]

Warm, helpful thoughts coming your way, Rich. I just lost a beautiful 08 that became a regurger, so I'm still stinging about being a bad parent.
And of all things,...I just released three regular native anoles back into the wilds of suburban Baton Rouge. They are everywhere in Louisiana. Especially cities and around houses. Actually, I've always succeeded before I got to the anole stage.
I've a pretty good record with problem feeders. And all the advice is good. The mass-feeding of a batch of little ones (snakes) in the same tub/clean-unused-viv has worked miracles for me, even tricked the most annoying little boogers. Triggers all sorts of desirable aggressive instinctual feeding behavior. Actually, I've always succeeded before I got to the live pinkie stage, too.
Also, leaving them alone in close quarters, even overnight. But you know all of these things, and they have been mentioned.
Wade and Lori have been very kind. Gosh, I'd try (almost) anything to avoid losing a precious wormlet.

[Rich in KY]

Warm, helpful thoughts coming your way, Rich. I just lost a beautiful 08 that became a regurger, so I'm still stinging about being a bad parent.
And of all things,...I just released three regular native anoles back into the wilds of suburban Baton Rouge. They are everywhere in Louisiana. Especially cities and around houses. Actually, I've always succeeded before I got to the anole stage.
I've a pretty good record with problem feeders. And all the advice is good. The mass-feeding of a batch of little ones (snakes) in the same tub/clean-unused-viv has worked miracles for me, even tricked the most annoying little boogers. Triggers all sorts of desirable aggressive instinctual feeding behavior. Actually, I've always succeeded before I got to the live pinkie stage, too.
Also, leaving them alone in close quarters, even overnight. But you know all of these things, and they have been mentioned.
Wade and Lori have been very kind. Gosh, I'd try (almost) anything to avoid losing a precious wormlet.

Thanks, Eric!

I want to thank everyone again for all the thoughts and advice.

Wade, Lori, Nanci and Scott have been great! This site is lucky to have them.

I just changed the lil' guy's water. It may just be wishful thinking, but he seemed a little more aggressive. He has never striked at me. But when I reached in to get his water, he did coil up. Hopefully his next feeding attempt will be the one!

[CrousesCorns]

Not sure if anyone has said this (I didn't read the whole thread) but a brown paper bag has worked for me before. Place the snake and pinkie in the bag and leave it overnight and then check it the next morning. Most of the time it works. Tape the bag or place it in a secure container. You don't want a escapee in your house. Good luck!!!

[Khaman]

Rich I just picked up a few live pinks. I tryed to pm you but I am on my phone and I don't know if it worked. Call me when you read this and I will try to bring them to you.

[vetusvates]

Thanks, Eric!

I want to thank everyone again for all the thoughts and advice.

Wade, Lori, Nanci and Scott have been great! This site is lucky to have them.

I just changed the lil' guy's water. It may just be wishful thinking, but he seemed a little more aggressive. He has never striked at me. But when I reached in to get his water, he did coil up. Hopefully his next feeding attempt will be the one!
Who is Scott? And the reason I ask, is that everyone called me by my middle name, Scott, until my late thirties. Some major life changes/crises at 38, and I came out a better man, being called by my first name, Eric. So I just went with it.
I think I mention it in/on facebook.
Anyhoo, just asking who "Scott" was. Kinda freaky.
And why he ranks with Wade, Lori, and Nanci,....and not Eric. :laugh:

More importantly : how is your fasting wormlet coming along, Rich?

[Rich in KY]

Who is Scott? And the reason I ask, is that everyone called me by my middle name, Scott, until my late thirties. Some major life changes/crises at 38, and I came out a better man, being called by my first name, Eric. So I just went with it.
I think I mention it in/on facebook.
Anyhoo, just asking who "Scott" was. Kinda freaky.
And why he ranks with Wade, Lori, and Nanci,....and not Eric. :laugh:

More importantly : how is your fasting wormlet coming along, Rich?

Sorry to take so long to answer your question, Eric.

To answer your question, Scott = Khaman. He is local to me and was helping trying to locate some live pinks.

To update my wormlet, I received a HUGE preggo mouse from Wade on Friday night. Thanks again Wade! She gave birth that night. I offered my lil' guy a live freshly born, untouched pink. He did not go for it. :(

The next step is, I am going to scent a pink with an anole. I should receive a couple fresh from Florida today or tomorrow. Wish me luck!

[Nanci]

Rich, something else to think about is just a pinky head. That got Katie's stubborn greybands eating.

[Rich in KY]

Rich, something else to think about is just a pinky head. That got Katie's stubborn greybands eating.

Nanci, you think I should offer a pinky head scented with anoles for my next attempt?

[Nanci]

I guess it wouldn't hurt!! You know what they do with baby hoggies, hold the snake right behind the head and just press the mouse up against its mouth till it gives up and opens. Then the snake might just go ahead and eat, or you can gently feed it in.

[Rich in KY]

It is not looking good gor this lil' one.

I have tried everything I know. Yesterday I spent the better part of an hour teasing him trying to strike at a pink. He has no interest.

It makes me so sad to see such a beautiful lil' snake that won't eat and I am helpless.

[francka]

:( I'm sorry, this is so sad
Try not to give up... (I know it is not easy)

[francka]

Is the little one living in a big viv?
Maybe you can try to make him his home in a smaller viv or simply in a bigger plastic box, maybe he will fell safer in this way.
It is only an idea, I don't know if is useful...

[COerriccaRN]

Why don't you use a pinkie pump???

[Noename]

I don't know if I missed whether or not you tried this, I only skimmed the thread. But, have you left him in a smaller container overnight or something like that? With mine, especially for the first feed, I took a smaller critter carrier, put paper on three of four sides, and put her in with the pinkie nose to her. She had to sit in there for a good few minutes before eating it. I just walk away or make sure she can't see me until it's a good way down her mouth.

If you havent tried the brown bad thing or leaving him with the pink in a container overnight, I'd do that. And just walk away and not look at him for at least an hour.

Best of luck :( I hope things work out

[ceduke]

I'm sorry he's still being so stubborn. :( I hope you find the solution soon.

[Caryl]

I somehow missed this thread until now. I'm sending warm, helpful thoughts for the baby as requested. It's so ungodly frustrating when they just won't eat.

Have you tried moving the little one to another room or a different viv, jostling it a bit en route or even going for a drive first, then leaving it alone as if you'd just gotten it? There are reports of snakes that won't feed suddenly beginning to do so after being transported somewhere new. It's worth a shot, in my book.

I also want to send a hug and encouragement to you. Sometimes one just decides it's time, and eats as if that's what it's always done. I hope yours does that the next time you offer.

[wade]

Rich, how about an update?

[Rich in KY]

Is the little one living in a big viv?
Maybe you can try to make him his home in a smaller viv or simply in a bigger plastic box, maybe he will fell safer in this way.
It is only an idea, I don't know if is useful...

I am keeping him in a Sterlite shoebox. I also have kept him in a deli cup as well. Thanks for the ideas, though.

Why don't you use a pinkie pump???

I have used a pinky pump in the past. I do not believe that force feeding is always the best thing for a stubborn baby. The stress can cause problems or if you do not do it correctly, you could injure the snake.

Even if you do force the snake to eat that does not mean that you will get a feeding response from the snake in the future.

I have tried to tease feed him. But could not get him to strike.

I don't know if I missed whether or not you tried this, I only skimmed the thread. But, have you left him in a smaller container overnight or something like that? With mine, especially for the first feed, I took a smaller critter carrier, put paper on three of four sides, and put her in with the pinkie nose to her. She had to sit in there for a good few minutes before eating it. I just walk away or make sure she can't see me until it's a good way down her mouth.

If you havent tried the brown bad thing or leaving him with the pink in a container overnight, I'd do that. And just walk away and not look at him for at least an hour.

Best of luck :( I hope things work out

Thanks. These are all good ideas. All feeding attempts have been in a deli cup, covered with a paper towel and left overnight. This lil' guy is just stubborn.

I'm sorry he's still being so stubborn. :( I hope you find the solution soon.

Thanks. I hope so too.

[Rich in KY]

I somehow missed this thread until now. I'm sending warm, helpful thoughts for the baby as requested. It's so ungodly frustrating when they just won't eat.

Have you tried moving the little one to another room or a different viv, jostling it a bit en route or even going for a drive first, then leaving it alone as if you'd just gotten it? There are reports of snakes that won't feed suddenly beginning to do so after being transported somewhere new. It's worth a shot, in my book.

I also want to send a hug and encouragement to you. Sometimes one just decides it's time, and eats as if that's what it's always done. I hope yours does that the next time you offer.

Thanks for the idea. I will definitely try moving him to another room. Possibly I may take him for a ride around the block to see if that might help.

Rich, how about an update?

Wade, unfortunately not much to update. Just more refusals.

The latest attempts were an anole scented pink. Then I used some bedding from my new female mouse to scent a pink.

I will try something different tomorrow.

[francka]

I have my fingers cross for tomorrow

[LBoz]

Rich, have you tried rubbing the pink on some KFC grease? I'm dying to know if this actually works. ;)

Good luck...let us know how it goes this time.

[vetusvates]

Rich, have you tried rubbing the pink on some KFC grease? I'm dying to know if this actually works. ;)
I am too, Lori.

I had trouble with a couple of new babies last night, so I used a pin and brained the pinks AND poked holes elsewhere. All kinds of juicy smells flowing. AND I left TWO of these per snakelet in the smallest deli cups. So the two little snakes could not move around much without bumping into one of the two well-aerated and fragrant pinks. Each snake ate one of the pinks.
I have plenty of piggish clean up snakes to dispose of the two remaining obstacle-course pinkies.

[haydnrobinson]

I somehow missed this thread until now. I'm sending warm, helpful thoughts for the baby as requested. It's so ungodly frustrating when they just won't eat.

Have you tried moving the little one to another room or a different viv, jostling it a bit en route or even going for a drive first, then leaving it alone as if you'd just gotten it? There are reports of snakes that won't feed suddenly beginning to do so after being transported somewhere new. It's worth a shot, in my book.

I also want to send a hug and encouragement to you. Sometimes one just decides it's time, and eats as if that's what it's always done. I hope yours does that the next time you offer.

This worked with our baby corn, he wouldn't eat at my girlfriend's house so we moved him to mine after many refusals and he started eating perfectly the first time we tried him in the new house. He's now moved back to my girlfriends house and eats fine there too. We do still cover up his feeding tub however, and still brain the mouse- just until he's a proper established feeder. So maybe the movement is actually a factor :)

[Caryl]

I'm still thinking good thoughts, Rich. You never know what's going to work.

My latest non-feeder had turned down pinkies that were f/t, washed, brained, stabbed in random places, halved, beheaded. I tried scenting with tuna, chicken, dirty bedding, and anole. She had no interest in any of it. Her disposition being the opposite of hateling, she wasn't at all inclined to strike at anything. Tease feeding did eventually resulted in strikes, but she considered the strikes a defensive moves only and never latched on for food.

We have a lot of Mediterraean (AKA house) geckos around here. I caught a big one who kindly gave me a tail to try to feed my baby. Wonder of wonders, when placed in a deli cup with the still-moving tail, she stared, then ate it all up immediately. Apparently that was what she'd wanted all along. After over a month of non-feeding, she's a healthy happy eater now.

Here's hoping yours will soon do something similar. :-)

[Carinata]

Rich, my King rat refused a meal so I put her in an aquarium with a Zoo med Daybulb which is a UVA emitting light. It made her feed perfect

[francka]

Some updates?
How it is going?

[chrisrc]

Hey, not sure if this is an 'acceptable' way to do it but when I first got my snake nearly 11 years ago she refused to feed, the guy in the shop held her just behind the head and pressed the pinky head against her mouth till she opend up and ate, we had to do this 3-4 times and after that shes ate fine.

Its not really inhumane or anything, no harm is caused, maybe abit of stress but well, they gotta eat, better then having it put down.

[Rich in KY]

Some updates?
How it is going?

So far he has still refused to voluntarily eat :(

I have force fed him an adult mouse tail every 4-5 days.

[Nanci]

So at least you can keep him going till he's more cooperative...

[danielle]

Well then he's getting something:( Try other mouse parts for awhile hopefully he'll voluntarily feed for you in the next few months.

[Maize411]

Maybe try a rat pink head?? Sometimes snakes prefer the taste of rat over the taste of mouse..This is just a thought though...but couldn't hurt...

Also one idea I have read up on is to place mouse scented bedding in with the snake's aspen and leave him in there overnight (no mouse..)...this "supposedly" gets them in hunting mode..then early in the morning before you go to work..place a brained pink, or live pink in a deli cup with the snake in the center of the mouse scented bedding...I don't garuntee this will work but the person who wrote it out said it worked for their stubborn eater...

best of luck to you and your little wormling..

[Rich in KY]

So at least you can keep him going till he's more cooperative...

My thoughts exactly

Well then he's getting something:( Try other mouse parts for awhile hopefully he'll voluntarily feed for you in the next few months.

Thanks!

The mouse tail was suggested because once you get it started, it is very difficult for the snake to spit it out. So he is forced to eat it.

Maybe try a rat pink head?? Sometimes snakes prefer the taste of rat over the taste of mouse..This is just a thought though...but couldn't hurt...

Also one idea I have read up on is to place mouse scented bedding in with the snake's aspen and leave him in there overnight (no mouse..)...this "supposedly" gets them in hunting mode..then early in the morning before you go to work..place a brained pink, or live pink in a deli cup with the snake in the center of the mouse scented bedding...I don't garuntee this will work but the person who wrote it out said it worked for their stubborn eater...

best of luck to you and your little wormling..

Hmmm...well I definitely have plenty of mouse bedding now. I may have to try that and see if it will work.

Thanks, Des!

[COerriccaRN]

Post some pictures of the little hard-head!

[Rich in KY]

Post some pictures of the little hard-head!

He is due to be fed again Tuesday, I will try to get a pic of him with a big old mouse tail hang out of his mouth :p

[kathylove]

If you have to force feed mouse parts, I find it best to use a newborn pink head, with shoulders attached. Put a little butter on the nose, and it slides in pretty easily. The shoulder skin makes a sort of handle for you to hold onto - don't get butter there - makes it too slippery! Because it is such a nice little lump, you can easily massage it into the throat, far enough so it is not usually spit up again.

But I pretty much gave up on force feeding pinks a few years ago. Now I tube feed egg yolks or ferret food if I decide to force feed something. Much easier, and seems to work well.

[LBoz]

Butter? Amazing! Great to know, Kathy...thanks!

[kathylove]

I am sure that vegetable oil would work as well. But since they are carnivores, I figured butter is an animal product, and more natural for them. So that is why I use it.

[Nanci]

(Why do you think they call them milk snakes??)

[Rich in KY]

If you have to force feed mouse parts, I find it best to use a newborn pink head, with shoulders attached. Put a little butter on the nose, and it slides in pretty easily. The shoulder skin makes a sort of handle for you to hold onto - don't get butter there - makes it too slippery! Because it is such a nice little lump, you can easily massage it into the throat, far enough so it is not usually spit up again.

But I pretty much gave up on force feeding pinks a few years ago. Now I tube feed egg yolks or ferret food if I decide to force feed something. Much easier, and seems to work well.

I will definitely try this. Thanks, Kathy!!

[Cflaguy]

If you have to force feed mouse parts, I find it best to use a newborn pink head, with shoulders attached. Put a little butter on the nose, and it slides in pretty easily. The shoulder skin makes a sort of handle for you to hold onto - don't get butter there - makes it too slippery! Because it is such a nice little lump, you can easily massage it into the throat, far enough so it is not usually spit up again.

But I pretty much gave up on force feeding pinks a few years ago. Now I tube feed egg yolks or ferret food if I decide to force feed something. Much easier, and seems to work well.

Butter, never thought of that. George Van Horn uses chicken baby food on his Coral snakes and stubborn hatchlings. He has had good results.

[Caryl]

I'm keeping up the good thoughts for you and this baby, Rich. One of my hatchlings has quit eating, and I'm working my way through the tricks without luck. I may be buttering up a mouse here, too!

[kathylove]

A friend donated a bunch of nice, but non-feeding babies - including butter stripes, bloods, and hets for this and that. So I decided to use them as an experiment for the ferret food I use.

Some are already 6+ weeks old, and kind of weak. So some will probably die right away as they will not be able to digest the food. But for the ones that survive, I think I will continue to feed them nothing but ferret food for many months, and see how healthy they are when I decide to offer them mice again. It will not be very scientific - I am doing a lot of shows coming up, and friends are doing some of the feeding. No careful measuring of food or weighing of snakes, or careful records, at least for this year. But if they are still healthy after a few months, it will tell us something.

BTW, I already fed 3 baby Amazon tree boas nothing but this food via syringe for 8 months before offering mice again, and they are now eating and doing great almost a year later!

[The_Thunderer]

Kathy... What made you think about ferret food??? Just curious. :)

[kathylove]

Actually, the owner (I think he was the owner) of the company (Pretty Pets) suggested it a couple of years ago, and I have been using it off and on since. He is the chemist / nutritionist who formulates the food. He said that ferrets are totally carnivorous, even more than cats and dogs. He said that he believes that most captive ferret medical problems are due to too much carbohydrate in the diet. So they analyzed mice of different ages, and decided to go with food that would analyze out as a young adult mouse, on a dry weight basis (at least, as much as humans are able to analyze such things). So when I discussed a commercial snake diet with him, he suggested that his Natural Gold ferret food should be about as close to mice as we can get at this time. We actually figured out the dry weight of mice and his diet, and I think we came to the conclusion that approx. 2 little pieces of the ferret food should have equal nutrition to a small pink a couple of days old. It also has some probiotics mixed into it, although nobody can tell me FOR SURE if the same species of probiotics that help ferrets will help herps. The general consensus from the company and from a couple of vets I talked to is that they will probably be of at least some help.

[The_Thunderer]

VERY KEWL, Kathy! I hope to NEVER have to use this method, but if I do, I'll have you to thank.

Thank you!

[wade]

Kathy, why ferret food and not a pinkie pump with actual pinkies?

[kathylove]

I tried it back when they first came out, and it was DISGUSTING! Maybe they are better now. But back in the 80s, you had to squeeze several pinks through to prime it, but you had to use such force that you needed to put them into another tube after squeezing, or risk blowing out the baby snake when the contents finally went through the die cuts with explosive force. After a few uses, I stored it away and never tried one again. What a mess!

We feed commercially prepared food to our dogs and cats, and even mice, rats, and often, pet birds. Now they are even available for iguanas, beardies, some geckos, etc. So why not work on developing a commercial diet for snakes? It is something I have always wanted to do. Once we find a formula that works, then we need to get it into a form that snakes can be taught to eat, but also can easily be force fed if they dont eat it (I am thinking forms like the gelatin bites or big vitamin E capsules for babies, etc). I am really hoping to see something like that, or to possibly be involved in developing something like that, someday before I retire.

[wade]

I'll have to agree with the disgusting aspects of pinkie pumps. I'd be all in favor of snake chow. I'm sick of cleaning mice.

[LBoz]

I'll have to agree with the disgusting aspects of pinkie pumps. I'd be all in favor of snake chow. I'm sick of cleaning mice.Agreed. I have Worm Chow coming out my eyeballs....Snake Chow would be awesome!

[Maize411]

The concept idea of this is great and would be terrific if it works out and snakes can actually be taught to take the meal willingly..I have 3 bearded dragon babies that I bought commercial pellet food for and they never seem to touch it..they'll eat their greens and can-o-crickets before touching the pellets..lol..So I know how tough it can be to make a carnivore see a pellet as a form of food..lol

[kathylove]

I think it is likely that they would have to be trained to eat it at first. Probably training would consist of scenting the food with real mice for a while. But the breeders who were willing to train the babies to the new food could probably charge more for those trained babies. Those customers who really don't want mice in their freezers would probably be willing to pay more for that convenience.

I will let you know when SNAKE DIETS BY KATHY is available, lol!

[northwestcorns]

has anyone tried the "snake sausages"? I saw those in a book once, can't remember which one. Maybe they don't even make them anymore.

[kathylove]

It was in my Cornsnake Manual. I tried them out to see how they work. They did work - more or less. Snakes that were already good feeders would often take them, or could be trained to take them by scenting. But the smallest sausages were way too big for hatchling corns. Corns that were around 15 - 18 inches or so could eat them. But the texture was kind of soft and mushy. I was not wild about using them, but they did work, sort of. I don't think they are offered in the US anymore, though.

[diamondlil]

I couldn't get a pinky pump, but found a 2ml syringe ideal for feeding Lil when she was in her non-feeding stage. I found it easier to finely chop a pink while it was still frozen by shaving thin slices with a very sharp knife then chopping and mincing until I had a fine 'goo'.
That was obviously quite time-consuming, so then I chopped up a batch of thawed fuzzies and put them through a blender and froze the resulting mouse-mince in individual feed-sized lumps in an ice-cube tray.

[The_Thunderer]

I couldn't get a pinky pump, but found a 2ml syringe ideal for feeding Lil when she was in her non-feeding stage. I found it easier to finely chop a pink while it was still frozen by shaving thin slices with a very sharp knife then chopping and mincing until I had a fine 'goo'.
That was obviously quite time-consuming, so then I chopped up a batch of thawed fuzzies and put them through a blender and froze the resulting mouse-mince in individual feed-sized lumps in an ice-cube tray.
You know... I'm sure that this is all good for the snakey and all... BUT, it sounds awfully horrible and disgusting at the same time. Imagine me trying to put THAT into my freezer... :awcrap:

[diamondlil]

You know... I'm sure that this is all good for the snakey and all... BUT, it sounds awfully horrible and disgusting at the same time. Imagine me trying to put THAT into my freezer... :awcrap:
My boys made me get another blender for human food, even though I washed the blades and everything! picky, picky, picky!
It wasn't the nicest thing, but Lil was worth every second of mouse-purree making to get the fat healthy girlie she is today!

[The_Thunderer]

My boys made me get another blender for human food, even though I washed the blades and everything! picky, picky, picky!
It wasn't the nicest thing, but Lil was worth every second of mouse-purree making to get the fat healthy girlie she is today!
LOL. I think I would have done the same as your boys. I love my snakes, but I dont' want to share my "plate" with them. LOL.

Also, in my post, I should have put "Imagine me trying to put THAT in my freezer with my wife looking over my shoulder." :)

[Kaminoke]

If you're force-feeding with syringes and you don't want to prepare your own mushy mouse mixtures, you can order frozen whole ground mouse and rabbit carcasses from Hare Today Gone Tomorrow, and probably some other places too. The messy part is already done. I've never used it for my snakes, but I order it for my ferrets (whoever mentioned the ferret diet problem earlier is spot on - though Evo now makes a ferret kibble now that is even better than Natural Gold).

[PikaBun]

Thanks for the useful tips (even though it's not my thread)! I have 5 non-feeders and 2 that ate once then never again so I really appreciate this info! I am going to be trying syringe feeding 'Duk Soup' for ferrets to them (after I try just rolling pinks in the powder for scenting). It's mainly dried chicken livers - about 33% protein and 16% fat with added good bacteria, minerals and vitamins (I am adding some calcium though since that was not included).