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Euthanasia

northwestcorns
08-17-2009, 01:39 AM
I recently made a difficult decision to euthanize my snake. A bunch of folks have been helping me through Jewel's situation and I've gotten a lot of support both on and off of the forum.

One of the folks' PM'd me to suggest that I use the freezer as a humane technique for euthanasia.

I have decided to go with traditional euthanasia, Anesthetic gas and then an injection to quietly stop her heart.

I thought maybe we could explore the freezer technique and other techniques that people may have. Pros and Cons and whether folks feel this is legitimate. I'm not completely opposed, people need to do what is the right thing for them. Also with all of the new people on the list, I thought this may a pretty educational topic.

My vet actually prefers Oxygen oversaturation for reptiles. Their respiratory drive is actually Oxygen driven rather than CO2 driven like mammals are. In a high oxygen environment, snakes will just NOT take the next breath. If left in a high oxygen environment, their heart will eventually stop beating.
Thoughts on this technique?

Lennycorn
08-17-2009, 07:02 AM
Wow never knew that I'll have to read up on that.

Glad your not going that route anymore.

wade
08-17-2009, 10:54 AM
I have no experience with Oxygen saturation but it is an interesting concept. I have never heard of that before.

ceduke
08-17-2009, 11:00 AM
My vet actually prefers Oxygen oversaturation for reptiles. Their respiratory drive is actually Oxygen driven rather than CO2 driven like mammals are. In a high oxygen environment, snakes will just NOT take the next breath. If left in a high oxygen environment, their heart will eventually stop beating.
Thoughts on this technique?

This is one of the things that makes reptiles more challenging to anesthetize than other animals. With a dog or cat, once the anesthetic drugs start wearing off, they are kept on oxygen for awhile until they begin to wake up.....obviously, this does not work with reptiles...

Zulu3
08-17-2009, 01:28 PM
I am so sorry for your loss..
I am glad you brought this topic up though because I have never had to euthanize any of my snakes yet, and would like to know what people think is the most humane option.

Again, so sorry my crew's thoughts are with you.
Ali

bitsy
08-17-2009, 03:09 PM
In a high oxygen environment, snakes will just NOT take the next breath. If left in a high oxygen environment, their heart will eventually stop beating.
Thoughts on this technique?
It's an interesting theory, but isn't this effectively just suffocating the snake (or forcing it to suffocate itself) over a quite long period of time? I've heard a theory that a snake can survive if its heart beats once an hour, so this technique would have to be in place for at least two hours for me to be satisfied that it's effective. Even then, I'd be wary of the potential for distress in the snake.

My vet uses the standard injectable euthanasia drug, but in a massively larger dose (calculated by body mass). This "overdose" still takes much longer to work than it would in other animals, but I do believe it's the most humane approach.

Here in the UK, I believe that the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has ruled that freezing is inhumane, as snakes retain some level of consciousness throughout the freezing process. It's possible (although not proven) that they experience prolonged pain/distress as a result of this method of euthanasia.

dionythicus
08-17-2009, 08:57 PM
Be-heading, if done quickly and cleanly, has been said to be acceptable.

wade
08-17-2009, 09:03 PM
Be-heading sounds brutal but would be quick. It is pretty hand on for the human. Many may not like that idea. Dead is dead and there is not a nice way to get there. As long as I didn’t see the blade fall, I’d go for the guillotine.

Drizzt80
08-17-2009, 09:04 PM
Fridge to slow down the metabolism, freezer to finish.

Comments above have forced me to ask, do reptiles get hypothermia and go to sleep as would mammals? I've heard freezing is bad because it happens so fast and the crystallization of the cells/organs is what is painful. Hence fridge first then freezer.

D80

Drizzt80
08-17-2009, 09:05 PM
Dead is dead and there is not a nice way to get there.Ah yes. Isn't that the crux of it all?! Out of sight, out of mind so to speak.

D80

wade
08-17-2009, 09:11 PM
Fridge to slow down the metabolism, freezer to finish.

Comments above have forced me to ask, do reptiles get hypothermia and go to sleep as would mammals? I've heard freezing is bad because it happens so fast and the crystallization of the cells/organs is what is painful. Hence fridge first then freezer.

D80

Brent brings up some good points. We, as mammals, probably perceive cold much differently than would a reptile. Remember we are warm-blooded and have biological furnaces trying to keep us warm. It stands to reason that an animal without that function would go into hypothermia much more quickly than you and I. I don’t think it is possible to say what another animal feels or thinks.

haydnrobinson
08-18-2009, 12:26 PM
I heard that the head can still feel though once the snake is beheaded- I don't know if it's for a while or just in seconds? Don't know where I heard that though...

medusacoils
08-18-2009, 12:44 PM
Thinking about this has brought one thing to mind. I consider ALL of my snakes, as my pets. Not just animals that produce more animals. I couldn't even remotely consider be-heading one of my pets. Be it a Dog, Rabbit or Reptile. (Cat's are a different story. ;) J/K of course)

From what little I know on this subject, I have read that reptiles, when subjected to extreme cold, it causes there metabolism to slow rapidly and then slip into a hibernation (brumation) type sleep, before they die. I'm not sure if they feel any pain, during this process, but it would be good to know.

Wayne

wade
08-18-2009, 01:07 PM
You know there is no good answer here. We are assuming that in the first place there is some horrific reason the snake needs to be euthanized. There is something wrong that is going to cause the snake unimaginable suffering. We hope to prevent that suffering. You have got to keep that in mind.

Secondly you need to consider what Wayne said. You are the one swinging the ax. Can you live with that? If not, you better find a way that is expectable to you. It’s going to be in your nightmares for a long time.

And last but not least, we don’t want to cause the snake unnecessary suffering. Remembering we are trying to prevent suffering. If there is a flicker of life in a beheaded snake is that expectable in stead of months of suffering during a lingering death? If you feel really cold in the refrigerator for a few minutes is that worse than what Elle’s snakes went through last month?

Ideally we will never be confronted with the whole citation. In reality, if it comes up, you will have to choose the lesser of the evils. I believe for me the solution is the refrigerator and then the freezer. It may not be perfect but it is the best option that I am aware of considering the alternatives.

vetusvates
08-18-2009, 01:14 PM
This has always been a very interesting concept for me.
For my senior year in high school, I wrote an extensive, and extensively referenced, paper...on Saint Sir Thomas More's Utopia, (1516).
Entitled 'Suicide, Martyrdom, and Thomas More'. He struggled with disagreeing on religious principles with Henry VIII's divorce from Catherine of Aragon...knowing it was suicide. But that it would also make him a martyr for the Catholic Church. But knowing that death would come, he felt suicide was a mortal sin. He wrote back and forth much with his close friend Erasmus of Rotterdam over this dilemma.

Also, upon reading his 'Utopia', I was introduced to communalism, voluntary suicide, and voluntary euthanasia. In this very sophisticated society, once a member became so aged or so infirm that he/she no longer was able to fulfill the duties of life independently, that they are a burden to both others and themselves,...they are persuaded by doctors, priests, and government leaders that they should put their hope in the afterlife and choose to let themselves die. Those who agree are let (released) from life during sleep, without pain. Those who do not agree are treated as kindly and tenderly as before.

References :
http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/morebio.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia_(book)
http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/utopia/section11.rhtml
http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/erasmus.html

MinLynn
08-18-2009, 01:31 PM
I've heard that the only true pain-free euthanasia would be a crushing blow to the head. However, like Wade said, I don't know if I could live with myself doing that. So I've always said if I had to euthanize it would more than likely be the fridge/freezer option as that would be more humane for me and in my head at least, it would be me putting them to sleep and then letting them die in their sleep.

medusacoils
08-18-2009, 01:40 PM
I found this article on the UCR (University of California Riverside) website. The Office of Research and Campus Veterinarian.

http://vet.ucr.edu/Primer/biomethodology/euthanasia.htm#Reptiles

Wayne

vetusvates
08-18-2009, 01:41 PM
I've heard that the only true pain-free euthanasia would be a crushing blow to the head. However, like Wade said, I don't know if I could live with myself doing that. So I've always said if I had to euthanize it would more than likely be the fridge/freezer option as that would be more humane for me and in my head at least, it would be me putting them to sleep and then letting them die in their sleep.
But Mindy, if out of kindness and mercy, you were doing it to my head....I would never know.

Although, I'd feel a little guilty about the mess needing to be cleaned up afterwards, maybe.....

MinLynn
08-18-2009, 02:03 PM
Ah! And I guess you wouldn't know would you? But I would know and would have the picture of your crushed head imprinted on my brain knowing I did that. And then having to clean up afterwards(I'm sure you'd leave a bigger mess than a snakes')wouldn't exactly do wonders for my brain either! But I'd do it if it meant you no longer were suffering! So rest assured!

diamondlil
08-18-2009, 02:15 PM
With the hatchling I had to cull last year, I decapitated it then gave it to my Kingsnake Skeeter. (it had eviscerated itself through the umbilical stump, which didn't heal over)
This year I have a badly kinked baby. I'm debating whether to miss out decapitation. Skeeter has a typical king's feeding response, but until I saw what he did to the hatchling's body I didn't realise why he's always coiled so much around his mice. He's designed to kill small snakes.

northwestcorns
08-18-2009, 02:40 PM
For me, I'm not a hands-on type of killer. I can't swing the mallet, blade, etc. Not with animals anyway (there's a few people i'm not so sure about.)

I prefer the veterinary route. However, I know this can be painfully expensive for folks with large operations. Say a whole clutch is born with fatal disorders. What would be the technique of choice? Would it be different if it were a long-lived adult? Why?

This is an interesting discussion. I hope that folks are getting something out of it. It has made me think ALOT.

diamondlil
08-18-2009, 02:55 PM
To be honest, having read Elle's description of how her snake Windsor died when euthanised at the vet, I'd rather do the deed quickly myself every time.

danielle
08-18-2009, 03:32 PM
I'm a do it yourself type of chick as well no matter the age.

wade
08-18-2009, 03:36 PM
I don't know Danielle, I'm starting to worry about blindness.

bitsy
08-18-2009, 03:52 PM
To be honest, having read Elle's description of how her snake Windsor died when euthanised at the vet, I'd rather do the deed quickly myself every time.
I had a Corn euthanased by my vet last year and I have to say it seemed very peaceful. The injection itself was obviously painful, as the snake wrapped coils around my wrist and squeezed very hard. The vet let us sit in a side room, where the snake continued to hang on to my arm but remained otherwise motionless. After five minutes the grip relaxed and ten minutes after the injection, the snake was completely limp and unresponsive, with mouth hanging open. I'm sorry that Elle had such a tough time, but this method doesn't need to be traumatic for either snake or owner.

I believe that the distress of the owner has a great deal to do with the euthanasia method chosen. A swift, heavy blow to the head seems to be the fastest and most painless method, but people (and I include myself) rarely have the stomach for it. Could this be why freezing seems to be the preferred option? "Out of sight, out of mind"? We don't have to participate or watch.

danielle
08-18-2009, 03:58 PM
I don't know Danielle, I'm starting to worry about blindness.

Don't worry Wade your safe:roflmao:

I think vet euthanasia is quite humane, but expensive and for those without a herp vet close by there are other at home methods just as humane. Honestly if an animal is suffering and beyond a cure, but may live days longer any method in my opinion is more humane than allowing them to die slowly.

Zulu3
08-18-2009, 04:03 PM
This year I have a badly kinked baby. I'm debating whether to miss out decapitation.

I will take your kinked baby...

diamondlil
08-18-2009, 04:06 PM
I will take your kinked baby...
Have a look at this and tell me if it would be humane to let it live.

MinLynn
08-18-2009, 04:12 PM
No, Janine! Unfortunately I don't think there's really any hope for that little baby.

diamondlil
08-18-2009, 04:16 PM
No, Janine! Unfortunately I don't think there's really any hope for that little baby.
There isn't Lynn, I wouldn't cull if I thought it had a chance. A minor kink would have meant offering it for free as pet only on the Uk forum.

danielle
08-18-2009, 04:21 PM
Ouch thats quite a kink sorry:(

Zulu3
08-18-2009, 04:30 PM
Just to defend myself

I would agree with you Janine on that one. I am not out to make truly severely kinked snakes suffer. But some breeders cull even minor kinks and that is what I am out to prevent.
I want to find homes for the ones that aren't "breeding material" but could still make a great pet for someone. Often they get culled unnecessarily.

Trust me I am not out to make corn snakes suffer, quite the opposite.

danielle
08-18-2009, 04:33 PM
Its not about killing them knowing they can live...its about not passing on genetic deformaties even though all kinks are not genetic adopting out animals that shouldn't be bred means risking that person may breed them anyway or pass them on to someone who will. I'm not saying you per say would do that, but many have which is why some choose to cull kinky babies:)

diamondlil
08-18-2009, 04:36 PM
Just to defend myself

I would agree with you Janine on that one. I am not out to make truly severely kinked snakes suffer. But some breeders cull even minor kinks and that is what I am out to prevent.
I want to find homes for the ones that aren't "breeding material" but could still make a great pet for someone. Often they get culled unnecessarily.

Trust me I am not out to make corn snakes suffer, quite the opposite.
And just to defend myself, I'm not that kind of breeder. I've got someone coming tonight to collect an 08 of mine hatchling that stopped feeding for him. I've had Mirabella for @7 months, getting her to first take live reds, then f/k, and now finally on f/t. I could have euthanised her and told him she died, instead I've rehabbed her so he can have his pet back. And there's no monetary gain, I gave her to him for nothing in the first place.

Zulu3
08-18-2009, 04:41 PM
Then that is great, we are on the same side.
But I did not know that and so I offered.

diamondlil
08-18-2009, 06:27 PM
Skeeter has culled the kinked hatchling for me, it was over in a few seconds. RIP pip.

wade
08-18-2009, 06:33 PM
Jolly good show J9, pip pip and all that rot.

diamondlil
08-18-2009, 06:37 PM
Urgh, I feel rotten. Skeeter on the other hand is very excited. I've had to defrost a mouse otherwise I'll never get him back to his tub without getting bitten

Caryl
08-18-2009, 07:02 PM
Just for the record, beheading isn't immediate death for snakes. How much pain may be felt isn't quantifiable, but I assume (yes, I know the acronym version of "assume") that there is appreciable pain. A crushing blow to the head does provide immediate death. Chilling in the refrigerator to induce a sleep-like state followed by a fatal trip to the freezer appears on the surface to be as humane as any other effort. Vet-provided euthanasia is said to be humane, though I've personally only been through that with mammals.

Euthanasia is never easy, but sometimes it's the kindest, most responsible option.