Do Non-Feeders beget Non-Feeders?

[lesleym]

I have 2 non-feeders, T'gor (Amel stripe) that I've posted about before and Kamiana, an Opal stripe. We're to the force-feeding stage, going to try 1/2 of a small pinkie (the head 1/2 for both of them). I'm starting to feel like Sam-I-Am (I will not eat it live or dead, I will not eat it in my bed, I will not eat it here or there, I will not eat it anywhere!).

I was wondering if anyone has kept track of a non-feeder that has successfully fed and grown up to breed. Are the babies at risk of being non-feeders in turn? Or is it just something that sometimes happens and once they're over it that's it?

Lesley (aka Sam-I-Am)

[mike17l]

Hey Lesley, Here was a reply I gave about getting some eastern milks to eat, it may be able to help you in the "force feeding" department.

Wayne,

I have never done this with eastern milks, but I have got many reluctant alterna and annulata eating.

#1 - Patience, wait them out, they do not want to die.
#2 - Live lizards, if you can find very small live lizards, they can work great, but do not work all the time.
#3 - Patience, did I say this one already. Actually, many breeders will brumate their hard to feed neonates, having them come out of brumation eating like champs. I have never tried this, but if I had the means, I would.
#4 - Other scents, I raise my own mice, but I also raise African Soft Furred rats as well as Deer Mice (Peromyscus sp.). The scent of other species of rodents (especially the Peromyscus) will sometimes trigger a feeding response. If you have enough of the other rodents, many times you can actually feed their pinks, instead of Mus musculus pinks.
#5 - Tails, what did he say? Tails? Yes, adult mouse tails. Cut the tails off of frozen adult mice. Cut the tail at a slight angle, close to the body of the tail. Also, cut the last 1.5" or so of the tail off. Hold the neonate between thumb and forefingers, gently "start" the tail. Push the end that was closest to the body of the mouse in first, and slowly push the rest down the hatch. If you put the "fat end of the tail" in first, the direction of the hair will help to prevent regurg. Also, once you have 90% or so of the tail down, they will usually take the rest.
#6 - Liquid Diets, I take a 10 ml syringe and I think it is a 14 ga needle. Over the needle I have a catheter tube (brand new one, no used ones, I do not know the gauge of the tube, but it is a pretty small one, I think). The tube it cut at about 10". Also, one brand new catheter tube, when cut will produce two "feeding tubes", one of them will have a blunt tip (the original tip of the tube) and the other should be cut on the bias, so that it will be pointed and able to squeeze into tight mouths easier. When I do it, I start, by giving about 2 ml (cc) of liquid and work my way up. Many feed scrambled eggs like this, but I mix my own feed. I take a small jar of veal or turkey baby food and add in 4 ml of Canine red cell (its a dog supplement, that can be found at many feed stores).
#7 - Patience, they will eat, sometimes they just need a little help figuring that out, and need some help getting nutrients as they take their time. I have had both alterna and annulata that took only one or two mouse tails or baby food meals before they ate on their own, and I have had some that took 10 or more, but they all eventually ate.
#8 - Keep trying, even while assist feeding, keep trying other methods, I would usually place a pink/scented pink/live/FT/lizard/ect in the deli cup over night, and if they did not eat it by the next day they would get an assist feeding. As for the assist feeding, I would try to give it to them about every 4 days.
#9 - Confinement, I have found that any and all methods have worked better for me if I kept(housed) them in a confined area. With all of the neonate alterna and annulata that I have worked with, I have had far better results with animals that were housed in deli cups, over those that were housed in shoe boxes. Once they were eating consistently, they were moved to shoe boxes.


If you get them eating FT lizards, you can also tie one a pink to the end of the lizard. I usually have some cnemidophorus(which most milks and kings love) in the freezer, and feed a foot with a pink tied to it. Kinda "uberscenting".

Good luck.



Good luck, and make sure you let me know how it goes.

[ceduke]

I don't have any information to offer, but I'm very curious to see the answers you get here...

[lesleym]

Thanks, Mike! I hadn't heard the "Tail" procedure before, I'll try that for sure!

Lesley

[vetusvates]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mike17l again.

Mike thank you very much for post #2. I had not seen the origin of you quoting yourself, but appreciate it. I have done similar, but clumsier, things over the years. Thanks for putting it all together here....so mathematically and beautifully organized.
I don't have any problematic little ones at the moment, but this page definitely gets bookmarked/favorited.

As my snakes are more "pets" really, this is very very valuable.

[mike17l]

Mike thank you very much for post #2. I had not seen the origin of you quoting yourself, but appreciate it. I have done similar, but clumsier, things over the years. Thanks for putting it all together here....so mathematically and beautifully organized.
I don't have any problematic little ones at the moment, but this page definitely gets bookmarked/favorited.

As my snakes are more "pets" really, this is very very valuable.

Hey Eric, In the quoted box, after the name there is a little arrow. If you click on that arrow it will take you to the individual post that the quote was from. Works for any quote that has that blue arrow.

[Tula_Montage]

The most important thing to remember with "non feeders" is that there is NO such thing!

Last year I got a group of 15 hatchlings from various people that were all dubbed non feeders. The reason I say this isn't true is beacsue no snake doesn't want to eat. No snake wants to starve it's self to death.

I found more than anything that the way you present the food is far more important than what the food actually is. I had some snakes which wanted to be left alone to eat in the dark, some that wanted it presented to them gently and slowly and statue still on a pair of tongs, some that needed me to follow them around with the food directly in front of their nose then they would latch on, some that wanted it piping hot, some that wanted it cold and wet. You just have to exhaust all these possibilities. Snakes which are flightly are no good for the "leave them to it" method. You need to activley engage them with their food. Snakes which are aggressive again will not want to be left alone, I found they liked to be offered hot dry food on the tongs held perfectly still in front of them, you just had to follow them with it. Snakes which are nervous and shy are good candidates for leaving it at the entrance of their hide. You just need to work out their behaviour and see how they react to the different ways of presenting them food.

I also found a lot of the babies that did not want just mouse would prefer chicks. Eventually I would just scent the pinkies with a chick and voila.

Here are some of my rehabed babies. And you can see how desperatley skinny they were, with some not eating for 2 months out the egg. I only lost one who unfortunatley prolapsed and was euthanised. I still have one of these babies a whole year later and she is a perfect feeder now.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/newhatch10.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/newhatch5.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/newhatch6.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/newhatch8.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/nonfeedy.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/nonfeedy2.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/nonfeedy4.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/nonfeedy5.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/nonfeedermybum.jpg

Showing the "tail" method on Fetish as a "non feeding" baby just to keep her going whilst we tried out various ways of presenting food. Using a rat tail which has a wee bit more fat is super easy to just pop in their mouth and they have no choice but to start swallowing. Starting slow with small meals helps to kick start their digestive system. I have lost a hatchling in the past to "too much too soon". I was aggressivley assist feeding whole pinks to a hatchling which was not willing to feed. Her system eventually backed up to the point she was no longer able to pass food. She too was euthanised.

Oh make sure you put the tail in the right way. If the hair goes down the wrong way ie against the growth then it will feel like a big bristly brush being pushed down the snakes throat.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/tula-montage/corns/fetishfirst.jpg