Another Regurg

[DarkSmoke]

Ok so my snake regurged again after 2wks - 3wks eating without problem and i had droped the size of his mouse again. i did switch 2mouse a weak but he was eating fine without probs , but this snake has like a timer in him after 2wks-4wks he has to regurg.

i dont think if he has a disease or im startling him while his out in the viv and he sees me enter the room .

what i need is to find a vet on this island which i never heard a vet of any knoledge on reptiles.

i dont know what to do if my snake has a diseas and there's no reptiles vets in my island :(

somehow vets here mainly care about furry animals.

[jlindp]

How many successive (and successful) feedings did your snake have on a reduced meal before switching him back to 2 mice a week?

A regurging snake needs to eat at least 6 small meals in a row (no regurges between) before attemtping to bump back up to normal-sized meals. You need to wait at least 8-10 days before you even try to feed again. Also, check temps again. And if you can get a sample of snake poo, take it to a vet and ask them to run a fecal. They shouldn't have to be a reptile vet to know what to look for.

Good luck.

[bitsy]

OK, I think you need to look at the temperatures now. What are the temps at the warm and cool ends? It could be cheaper to buy a good thermometer and fix a heat issue, than pay a vet to tell you the same sort of thing. Any decent reptile vet will want to know that your setup is right before looking for diseases or illness.

And have you used Dethol to clean his tank recently?

[Nanci]

What size exactly did he regurge? How many days in between feedings are you doing? How big is he? If he's a baby, I would stick to only one pink at a time, six days apart, for a good long time until he's gone two or three months with no further regurges. If he is older, I would stick with only feeding a week. You need to not feed him for ten days now. Then feed a meal half the size he regurged. Did you find a way to get Nutribac? I mean, did you ask Kathy Love if she could ship it to you?

Even if you find a vet, (and anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong) I doubt he is going to be able to do anything other than test your snake for parasites and deworm him, if that's the problem. There really isn't much else you can do for a regurging baby other than do everything in your power to prevent it from happening, if you can. If the snake has a physiological problem, the vet isn't going to be able to fix or treat it.

[DarkSmoke]

OK, I think you need to look at the temperatures now. What are the temps at the warm and cool ends? It could be cheaper to buy a good thermometer and fix a heat issue, than pay a vet to tell you the same sort of thing. Any decent reptile vet will want to know that your setup is right before looking for diseases or illness.

And have you used Dethol to clean his tank recently?

no i didnt clean his viv for the last 2 weaks

What size exactly did he regurge? How many days in between feedings are you doing? How big is he? If he's a baby, I would stick to only one pink at a time, six days apart, for a good long time until he's gone two or three months with no further regurges. If he is older, I would stick with only feeding a week. You need to not feed him for ten days now. Then feed a meal half the size he regurged. Did you find a way to get Nutribac? I mean, did you ask Kathy Love if she could ship it to you?

Even if you find a vet, (and anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong) I doubt he is going to be able to do anything other than test your snake for parasites and deworm him, if that's the problem. There really isn't much else you can do for a regurging baby other than do everything in your power to prevent it from happening, if you can. If the snake has a physiological problem, the vet isn't going to be able to fix or treat it.

he regurged the whole mouse other then the head, and no hes not a baby he's about 1year6months or 7months. i doubt they will test his poop. and if he has worms or parasites i dont know what the hell am i gonna do, wait i don't even know how im gonna know that he have them or no :S tomorrow i call some petshops ask if they know a reptile vet.

btw as i earlier said, i switch to 2mice these last 2weeks for 2 reasons , one he is too small for his age. i posted on the forum to see if it gets him fat and asked petshops which all said there's np. and second since he usualy regurgs every 2 - 3 wks i wannted to see if its something about not toomuch acid in his stomach, but that wasnt the issue since he at about 4mice in the last 2weeks without any problem , then again the 2-3 wks period as usual passed and he regurged. its like a damn timer in him .

now i have 2 things in mind about whats happening. i know last time he regurged before this one was because there where no heatmaths in my country at the time and he was too much called.

so correct me if im wrong but could it be possible:
1) a case of bad mice from the shop im buying them?!
2) im startling the snake while he's out in the viv because there's nobody in the room (he only leaves the hidout while he has food in the stomach when the room is empty or we're asleep) and then when i get in fast in the room i startle him he panicks and regurgs in protection/instinct?

[jlindp]

Okay, I'm not sure what to say other than follow Nanci's and bitsy's advice. They're both very knowledgeable.

So, to reiterate, don't feed your snake ANYTHING for at least 8-10 days. When you do feed, try to feed something small. Just a pink, even. Clearly, your pet shop owners don't know what they're talking about since it's not healthy or normal for a snake to continually regurge after every few weeks. Even if he's eating fine, but he regurges, something is very wrong. So, check your temps. Tell us what they are for both the warm and cool side. Don't worry about your snake's size right now. You just need to be concerned with getting him to keep down food for longer than a few weeks or even a month. START SMALL. If he keeps down SIX consecutive small meals, then you can try to bump him up to something larger. Also, during this time, feed him once every 7 days. Don't rush this or you will end up with a dead snake.

As for your concerns, I doubt it is bad mice, unless they appear black/dark and have a putrid smell. And it shouldn't be because you're startling him. I have several that rush back into hiding when I come in the room and none have problems with regurging. Again, check your temps. If they're correct, you can try to get a fecal done. Any qualified vet should be able to do a fecal, regardless of whether they are reptile vets or not. If it's parasites, all they can do is worm him with fenbendazole or ivermectin. If it's crypto, which can't always be identified straight away, then I'm afraid there wouldn't be much any vet could do.

Lastly, it seems every time you post for help, you consistently come up with reasons to not listen to people's advice. Why ask for help if you're just going to ignore it? Please listen and follow the above advice. Both bitsy and Nanci, and probably anyone else that comes along, know what they're talking about. We want you to have a happy, healthy snake.

[bitsy]

I really think you need to check the temperatures in the tank at both warm and cool ends. You're looking for quite complicated reasons for the regurges, when it could be simple to resolve.

[Nanci]

And I think you need to stop trying to put weight on a snake that has regurged repeatedly. He obviously can't handle the large/frequent meal size! I don't consider a snake recovered from just a single regurge until it has gone a year with no further problems, and for that year, that snake is treated very conservatively in terms of meal size and frequency. If your snake continues to regurge, it will die.

[Teddy Roosevelt]

A good thing to read, if you're leery of "random forum people"s opinions on this (although all the posters in this thread besides you and I are very experienced with corns), is the Health/Feeding problems FAQ, stickied at the top of this forum. It has two different FAQs on dealing with chronic regurges, one by Kathy Love, whom (I would hope) you know is a leading breeder and expert.

[Buzzard]

Something smells ..... oh look another regurg or is it a cry for a thread.... You solved the issue once. Take a step back and start over the way you did last time...

[DarkSmoke]

i will let him 8-9 days without food and then feed him small. im not trying to come up with excuses not to listen to you but like 4months ago when i got my snake and he regurged for the second them i already left him for 15days without food and then started to feed him pinkies. it didnt solve anything he's still regurging after 4months every about 3wks.

I WILL DO IT AGAIN , SO DON'T ANYONE TELL ME IM NOT GONNA DO IT OR AVOIDING IT. but guys pls, its the snakes life that is at risk, so if once tried this and a snake continues to regurg its useless to try it again just tell me. i cant by a thermometre at the moment im out of money, but i can check the themps by putting a normal thermometre on the heated side of the viv, but again, the petshop that sold me the snake breed the corns himself and he uses the same heath maths im using for all the corns he has. so i doubt this would be a temp isue since we live in the same country (our country is as big as a state of the usa) and using the same maths.

i dont avoid your help. i just dont want to try useless things and wast like another month trying this and then end up with a dead snake. i don't want to sound arrogant , but everytime i open a thread because i question everyone its because either of these reasons:

1) i want a very detailed explanation of what you just told me to do for the next 15 - 1year to my snake. its not good to waste time in life without not know whatever your doing and been told in reason.

2) i have already read what you told me to do by searching the forums first, unlike most new people to the internet forums , im a guy that spents most of my free time of my life on the computer. i KNOW HOW TO USE A SEARCH BUTTON IN A FORUMS.

what i mean is.. if thats already posted that you have to leave your snake without food for some days if it regurged then feed hims small blablabla , i have:

1)i have found it alreay using the search button
2)i have tried it and it i didn't work
3)its the only reason i opened a new thread about regurgs, already tried the other things usualy posted , they didn't work. else i wouldn't need to open another thread which have been solved.

thanks in advance.

[Teddy Roosevelt]

WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS
Ok, first of all. I understand you're stressed about your snake but there's no reason to get snippy with the very people trying to help you.

cant by a thermometre at the moment im out of money, but i can check the themps by putting a normal thermometre on the heated side of the viv, but again, the petshop that sold me the snake breed the corns himself and he uses the same heath maths im using
Digital thermometers are about $6. How are you affording a snake if you can't afford an appropriate thermometer? This DEFINITELY is a big red flag to me that the issue here is temp. Heat mats by themselves EASILY crest 110*F unwatched. That's glass heat, where snakes like to hide, not substrate heat. The petshop owner probably has his on a rheostat or a thermostat to control the temperatures.

i dont avoid your help. i just dont want to try useless things and wast like another month trying this and then end up with a dead snake

So suddenly you've owned snakes for 20+ years, as many members here have, and can decide for yourself what is "useless" or not? Fine; go right on ahead marking advice you arbitrarily deem unworthy of tyring or retrying as "useless". Then you will DEFINITELY end up with a dead snake. Regurges are serious business and unless you can seriously grow up and take the advice you're being given, then you can seriously enjoy your limp snake.

2) i have already read what you told me to do by searching the forums first, unlike most new people to the internet forums , im a guy that spents most of my free time of my life on the computer. i KNOW HOW TO USE A SEARCH BUTTON IN A FORUMS.
I NOSE NAGAS etc etc

The reason this advice is repeated so often is because it WORKS. If it didn't work, it wouldn't be spread around so much, right? You wouldn't spend hours sifting through search results showing the SAME. SOLUTION. OVER. AND OVER. if it was "useless". If it didn't work the first time, try it again. For 10 whole days this time, not just 8-9, with no handling. And if it doesn't work then, keep trying.

And seriously consider buying a good thermometer.

[DarkSmoke]

-_- i dont know why im even replying to you , you said words words words, i dont know why you said i sudenly own snakes for 20+ years but anyway you didnt read, i said the first time i tried for 15days.

[jlindp]

Okay. I'm just going to give you what I did when my kingsnake started regurging. I followed Kathy Love's protocol and he's now kept down 8 consecutive meals.

He was originally on double pinks when I got him, but he regurged. Then he regurged a single pink, so I took it all the way down to a pinkie head.

1. Pink head (waited 7 days)
2. Pink head (waited 7 days)
3. Pink head (waited 7 days)
4. Pink head (waited 7 days)
5. Pink head (waited 7 days)
6. Half a pink (waited 7 days)
7. Half a pink (waited 6 days)
8. Whole pink (fed 5 days ago, kept it down)

He's a yearling and is only 15 grams. He lost a considerable amount of weight. But I don't care how big he is, as long as he's eating! He's gained 3 grams since I started the protocol. I also monitor his temperatures like a hawk.

I can only wish you luck with your snake and I hope you find out what's causing the problem.

[kathylove]

It is very true that you should not try to add weight on a snake with a regurge issue. That will almost always result in more regurges. You will have to take a very long time to very slowly increase to a normal diet.

It is also true that you must know what the temperature is INSIDE the warm hide box. You can use a cheap thermometer, as long as it is fairly accurate, and will fit INSIDE the hidebox. If another snake does well in the same temps as your snake (temps that are not the best temps), it doesn't really mean anything. Some snakes, like some people, can deal with imperfect conditions MUCH better than some other snakes (or people). It is the snake that is having a problem that needs the most perfect conditions. The snakes that are doing well are dealing ok with whatever the conditions are, perfect or not. If the temps are not around 85F, give or take a few degrees, INSIDE the warm hidebox, then it might not matter what else you do.

You can take the snake poop to a vet - even a cat and dog vet. They can check for parasites - they are usually similar types that cats and dogs also get. If there are some parasites, the cat and dog vet can consult by phone or email for the proper treatment - or you can help research it. That is the only thing a cat and dog vet can probably help you with.

If it turns out that he can't keep even pinks down with a very conservative feeding schedule, and there are no parasites to treat, then you may want to try a liquid diet for a while, to allow him to build up his digestive tract with easy to digest meals. Eggs via feeding tube can work for a while.

I always suggest Nutri Bac in these cases. But it is unlikely to be available where you are. You would probably have to order from Europe or the U.S.

One of the most important things to remember is that it is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT for a snake NOT TO REGURGE than it is for it to eat, or eat a lot. Regurges are worse than no food at all, because it depletes the snake and leaves it in a worse condition than having no food at all. That is why everyone here is saying to feed so little and so slowly, even though your snake is too thin. A little bit held down is much better than a bigger meal, and a regurge.

Hope that helps!

Good luck!

[danielle]

Darksmoke your problem may be that your feeding to often and to big of meals. I know you waited 15 days and fed smaller meals for awhile, but then within 2 weeks you are feeding double meals and thats gonna keep causing him to regurge because he needs to build and maintain his digestive enzymes which takes weeks. By the time he has almost built them up your pushing more food causing him to regurge all over again. If you would take it slooooow for the next few months he'll gain quicker because the regurging will stop. After maybe 2 months of no regurging move up one size, but never feed more than once a week its to much for a corn.

Do you have your heat mat plugged into anything other than your wall outlet? I ask because more important than even a thermostat is a rheostat or thermostat to keep it from getting to warm- i'm sure your petshop friend is using one himself maybe he could lend you a spare.

[bitsy]

I always suggest Nutri Bac in these cases. But it is unlikely to be available where you are. You would probably have to order from Europe or the U.S.

I'm in the UK and would be happy to ship you out a pro-biotic supplement like NutriBac and/or a digital thermometer.

Please let us know what the temps are - this really could be crucial. Even the reading from a normal thermometer might help as an indicator. If they're a problem then they're easy to fix with a thermostat, and if they're within the expected range then we can discount them as a potential cause and help you look for other reasons.

As you say, your snake's life is at risk here. A temperature check is one of the cheapest and fastest ways of finding or eliminating one factor. Cheaper than going to the vet.

[diamondlil]

Can you not get a digital thermometer and thermostat online if there are no shops local to you?

[DarkSmoke]

thanks for all the help guys, i just woke up , im putting the thermometre on the heat site to check the temps and have an idea. if this aint a tempreture isue i'll cal a petshop that sells snakes and the one that breed corns to see if they have a number of a vet , if not i'll cal a normal vet and see what he says. i'll ipdate this treat after some minutes to give a chance to the termometre to get the temps.

[DarkSmoke]

btw how much days must pass between feedings if you feed the snake 2times a week?
cause this could be a mistake from my side this time since i was only giving him about 24hours after the lump disapears (about 48hrs for the lump disapear and then after abouyt 24hrs feed him again )

[diamondlil]

btw how much days must pass between feedings if you feed the snake 2times a week?
cause this could be a mistake from my side this time since i was only giving him about 24hours after the lump disapears (about 48hrs for the lump disapear and then after abouyt 24hrs feed him again )
For this particular snake, with the history of regurges, I'd say never try 2 feeds a week.

[Nanci]

DO NOT feed your snake two times a week!!

[Teddy Roosevelt]

DO NOT feed your snake two times a week!!
And DEFINITELY do not feed every 2 days. That's too often even for a hatchling.

[DarkSmoke]

tempreture on the heathmath is about 79 degress after about 30mins, and then after about 5-6hrs it rose up to 80-85 (its 3pm so its the peak of heath of the day here) probably at night it drops to 79 or less i will post tonight. my snake only uses the heathmat at night about 10pm till sunrise.

[bitsy]

85 degrees is fine for the warm end. 79 is a bit low and if it drops lower than that on the warm side, then that could well be causing the regurges.

HOWEVER... it's very unusual for an unregulated heatmat to be running that "cool". I've tried mine without thermostats and they get to 110 degrees in over in an hour. I'd be inclined to think the thermometer is wrong, but I'm not sure what else to suggest. Does the heat mat feel warm or hot to you when you put your hand on it?

[DarkSmoke]

85 degrees is fine for the warm end. 79 is a bit low and if it drops lower than that on the warm side, then that could well be causing the regurges.

HOWEVER... it's very unusual for an unregulated heatmat to be running that "cool". I've tried mine without thermostats and they get to 110 degrees in over in an hour. I'd be inclined to think the thermometer is wrong, but I'm not sure what else to suggest. Does the heat mat feel warm or hot to you when you put your hand on it?

it was 79 when in the first bit when i putted it on the warm side then its started rising, i will check what the temp will be tonight and post imidiatle at about 21:00. the heath math does feel warm when i put my hands on it. so yes its working. thanks for the help again m8

[Hallie]

If your heat mat feels warm to you, then it is too hot for your snake.

[DarkSmoke]

If your heat mat feels warm to you, then it is too hot for your snake.

are you saying that the heathmath should feel cold when you put your hands directly on it ?

[Hallie]

It should not feel 'warm'. Think about the difference in temperature. Your body temperature is almost 15 degrees warmer than what the heat mat should be. So yes, it should feel 'cool'. Can you order an infrared temp gun? You'd be amazed at the temp of your 'warm' heat mat (checked one of mine unregulated once and it was around 110 degrees, and it barely felt warm to me) with a very accurate thermometer. I know you said you don't have a lot of extra money now, but it would be worth saving up to get a temp gun. I use mine all the time.

[DarkSmoke]

It should not feel 'warm'. Think about the difference in temperature. Your body temperature is almost 15 degrees warmer than what the heat mat should be. So yes, it should feel 'cool'. Can you order an infrared temp gun? You'd be amazed at the temp of your 'warm' heat mat (checked one of mine unregulated once and it was around 110 degrees, and it barely felt warm to me) with a very accurate thermometer. I know you said you don't have a lot of extra money now, but it would be worth saving up to get a temp gun. I use mine all the time.

Ok guy thanks i understand your reply fully and you're right. now im gonna say something but please try not to understand im not trying to be an expert or trying to say you're wrong cause im gettin paranoid at times trying to use the BUT word since iv been critized alot about it latly.

at this time of the year and if your the type of person with cold feet and hands like me (i'm always like when cold starts to arrive) then you're hands aint that high in temp and i bet you'll feel the heathmath as warm. but correct me if im wrong.

[Hallie]

I suppose it is possible...if your hands were quite cold...this just makes it all the more necessary to have an accurate thermometer! ;)

[DarkSmoke]

I suppose it is possible...if your hands were quite cold...this just makes it all the more necessary to have an accurate thermometer! ;)

yes i'll buy one soon.

[Hallie]

If you can, I would definitely go for the temp gun. ProExotics sells them, I think they ship internationally....

But in the meantime, monitor the temps with what you have and stick to very small meals once the 10 day waiting period is up. I'm going through a similar situation with my 2 year old snow stripe. He has lost over 40 grams since July (combination of refusal to eat and 3 regurges). I don't give him anything larger than a peach fuzzy at this point, and he was eating small adult mice before. But until he keeps down all of his meals for awhile, he won't be getting anything larger.

[diamondlil]

I contacted a Maltese member of another reptile site I'm a member of, and he's happy for me to PM you his e-mail address. He can help you with where to find equipment local to you in Malta.

[DarkSmoke]

thanks alot friend for you're help :))

[diamondlil]

thanks alot friend for you're help :))
No worries, I hope your snake will get the chance to grow nice and healthy

[DarkSmoke]

ok so i checked temps now , its 10:50 temp on the heathmath site is 82.

[DarkSmoke]

today i woke up and my snake is really hungry , he's been runing around the vivarium for like 2hrs already

[bitsy]

today i woke up and my snake is really hungry , he's been runing around the vivarium for like 2hrs already
PLEASE don't offer food until the suggested post-regurge fasting period is up. His digestive system needs a rest in order to build back up. If you feed him too soon, he won't be able to digest and you'll get another regurge. That would be very serious at this stage. He doesn't know this - he only has instincts. You're the keeper and you have to behave responsibly on his behalf because he doesn't know any better.

And please don't interpret hunting behaviour as "needing to be fed". Corns are always on the lookout for food. You can't tell whether or not a Corn is hungry from its behaviour. In this instance, even if it is hungry, eating would do more harm than good.

[DarkSmoke]

PLEASE don't offer food until the suggested post-regurge fasting period is up. His digestive system needs a rest in order to build back up. If you feed him too soon, he won't be able to digest and you'll get another regurge. That would be very serious at this stage. He doesn't know this - he only has instincts. You're the keeper and you have to behave responsibly on his behalf because he doesn't know any better.

And please don't interpret hunting behaviour as "needing to be fed". Corns are always on the lookout for food. You can't tell whether or not a Corn is hungry from its behaviour. In this instance, even if it is hungry, eating would do more harm than good.

yes yes i know that m8 , just wanted to keep everyone updated of whats happening :)

[Teddy Roosevelt]

ok so i checked temps now , its 10:50 temp on the heathmath site is 82.
Just to clarify, you need to take the temp at the bottom of your tank, not the heatmat itself. Heatmats don't get very hots alone; they work by radiating heat into something like glass or plastic to make it warm.

[DarkSmoke]

i took the tempreture by placing the thermometre layed down on the bedding in the vivarium (where the snake sits) not on the heathmat.

[Teddy Roosevelt]

i took the tempreture by placing the thermometre layed down on the bedding in the vivarium (where the snake sits) not on the heathmat.
Alright, but again it needs to be on the very bottom, below the substrate. Even if you've neeever seen your snake burrow doesn't mean it hasn't/won't, and they're slow to react to burns. I've found the temp on the substrate can be 20 degrees less than the temp on the heated glass just an inch below it! I'm not trying to ride your arse, but better safe than sorry, verdad?

[AshleyShadows]

Even if you find a vet, (and anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong) I doubt he is going to be able to do anything other than test your snake for parasites and deworm him, if that's the problem. There really isn't much else you can do for a regurging baby other than do everything in your power to prevent it from happening, if you can. If the snake has a physiological problem, the vet isn't going to be able to fix or treat it.


A fecal sample could be collected to check for parasites, and oral antibiotics can be prescribed as well.

There's also a special carnivore care diet that an exotic vet should have which can be tube fed. It's liquidy and light, so it helps in critical times.

[DarkSmoke]

yeah man i saw the link about that you posted on the other thread, looks intresting.