Poop or regurge?

Hi everyone. I've been lurking here for a while and have found this site to be very helpful and informative. I figured I'd finally speak up and ask for some advice. I recently purchased an 03' Amel Motley from Don S. at SMR ... Great little snake, adjusted quickly and feeds well. This morning while spot cleaning his viv I noticed what I thought was poop, only when I scooped it up and examined it a bit more closely, the pinky's snout was poop colored but intact. It's nose and mouth were quite discernable. The rest of the "poo" was quite normal looking i.e. looked digested. So my question is, was this a poop? Is it normal for small parts of a mouse to remain intact during digestion? Just interested in getting some opinions. FYI, Henry is about 14 inches long, eats a day old pinky every 3-4 days (he was last fed Tues. night). Temps are 73-74 on cool end, low-mid 80's on warm end. I was considering moving up a pinky size (he has no visible lump within 24 hours of a feed), but now I'm not so sure. Any advice would be appreciated.

Phillip

Well, I'll bite onto your question since no one else has. Welcome to the forum, btw. =)

I've had some snakes that poo out undigested material, but more often than not it's associated with incorrect tempretures. However your temps sound within the reasonable range.

Have you noticed the snake hanging out in one end of the viv more so than the other?

Usually for my snakes, too low of a temp results in a regurge and too high of a temp results in undigested poo. It moves through their body faster than they can process. Although sometimes too high of a temp will cause the mouse to spoil faster and depending on its location within the gut, will either be vomited up or pooed out.

Feeding at a rate of every 3-4 days is a pretty high turnover. I personally don't feed my hatchlings any earlier than every 5-6 days. As they age, I feed them even less often..yearlings every 7 days and adults every 14 days. They don't need that much food when their growing subsides, and anything more than that leads to an obese snake. Digesting takes a lot of energy for a snake, so I try not to overload them. It could be that he had remnants of last few days meal in his gut he was busy "chewing on" and when you offered him more, he had to release what was already in there. Kids are the same way, after they eat a big meal they have to go to the bathroom pretty quickly afterwards. I would try to slow back the feeding to every 4-5 days and see if he does better on that as well. Once you get bumped up to larger prey items, they can't digest all of that in a couple of days. Pinks are nothing to digest, no real bones or hair. So when he gets bumped up, you'll have to slow down the feeding rate anyway or face a barage of regurges.

I would wait at least 10 days before feeding just in case that it was a regurge and try feeding a single pinky again. It could have just been a temporary thing. Usually when they start regurging quite a bit is when I get worried and have mine checked out.

Did you handle it within 24hrs of feeding? Sometimes that will induce some "tummy aches" and you'll get a regurge. I wouldn't worry about it for now, as snakes could have multiple reasons for why it happened. If it gets to be a habit though, I would get the snake checked out.

I hope that helped somewhat to answer your question and curiosity. Best of luck to you and the little one. And remember, if you ever have a problem..email Don, he's a great guy and has some great advice. =)

thanks ...

Thanks for the advice Misty. I had pretty much already decided on using the 10 day regurge rule just to be safe, but I thank you for your opinion. I have noticed that he seems to like to hang out under his water-bowl/hide on the cool end, but he stayed in the warm hide for quite a while after his last meal.
I'm planning on finding a smaller hide tomorrow to go on the warm side since he seems to be partial to the tighter confines his water-bowl affords him.

I am also going to double check viv temps at all key points to make absolutely sure it's not a temp problem.

I'm certain it's not a handling problem as I only handle him when I'm transferring him to his feeding container.

I'm really thinking that I may have been overfeeding, or rather feeding too frequently as you hypothesized. I shall remedy that and go to the 5-6 day schedule.

Not to be bothersome, but I have another question ... I had already bought some pinks that are marginally larger than the day olds I have been feeding. After the ten days, would it be a no-no to feed him a slightly larger pink? I'm guessing it would. Should I buy a few more day olds, or maybe start with half a larger pink? That's probably a common sense question, but again, you folks know your stuff and I value your opinions.

Thanks again for the advice, and for not yelling at me to buy the Corn Snake Manual (which I DO intend to pick up very soon).



Phillip

It sounds as though you are doing everything correctly, so I don't think it's really a husbandry problem at all.

I really think he was being slightly overfed, and he didn't have enough time to digest before having to digest something else. Which is an honest mistake, we're all guilty of it a time or two, thinking "Why don't you grow faster..eat more dangit!". I think cutting him down to 5-6 days would be a good idea.

As for your other question, I personally wouldn't press the matter by offering him a larger prey item right off the bat. Give him the 10 days to clear out his system and then offer him his usual fare. Just for good measure I'd feed him the smaller pink for the next feeding as well, just to make sure the problem isn't something else. If he's 14 inches, I'm sure he could handle a 3-4 day old pink. *Mentally picturing my own 31 pinks right now.* A one day old is pretty small and not all that nutritious I don't imagine. They haven't built up that baby fat or thicker bones yet. I wouldn't venture for anything with fuzz or hair, but a slightly larger pink might be better.

Lemme see if I can rustle up a pic of some pinks..ok, pics of all the pinks I had alive tonight before feeding (muahahaha).



As you can see, some of the day old ones are quite a bit smaller and don't have the characteristic "milk belly". Me, I prefer feeding the milk bellies before the others. I would think they have at least more nutrition all wrapped up in there than just a pinky would have empty bellied. The larger, lighter pink ones are 5 days old, then the smaller ones are 2-3 days, and then the smallest ones were born today.

Again, I hope that helps. And I don't yell at anyone to go buy the manual, unless I happen to be especially crabby that day. =P

hmmm...

Just an update, and another quick question. Henry seems to be fine, although I think he may be a bit hungry (he's been really active the past few days). I'm still waiting the ten days before his next feed.

That being said, I found him a smaller hide to go on the warm end of the viv ... a little over-turned salsa dish with a door hole. I double checked viv temps, and while my substrate temp at the warm end was 83-85 degrees, I put the probe inside his previous warm hide (on top of the substrate) and found the temps to be 92-93. Before I put his new hide in, I made the layer of aspen on the warm end a bit thicker. However, even with my rheostat on it's lowest possible setting, I'm still having problems keeping the temp inside the new hide at tolerable levels. It's 87.3 and climbing as I type this. Where do you guys take your temp readings? Perhaps I'm just being a moron. I realize that the hide itself is catching the heat before it can radiate up and out, but I'm wondering if this may be a potential problem, and if so, how do I remedy it? Drill little vent holes in the top of the hide? Rely solely on substrate temps outside of the hide? Stop asking stupid questions?

Phillip

Well that's good that he seems hungry and looking for his food. =D

Well another hide is always good, however if he's like my snakes..they tend to "root out" a bed under the hide. It's always at a lower level than the surrounding substrate. So they could end up digging down even closer to the heat source, which lets more heat radiate up since there isn't as much insulation underneath.

I've never used nor dealt with a rheostat personally. I have no use for them in my house. As my house temps are usually within the tolerable range, and the end of the cage near the wall is cooler than the end out towards the middle of the room.

That being said, the surface substrate temp sounds good. However I too would be concerned with the temp underneath the hide. What is the hide made of? When I think of a salsa container I think of either plastic like you'd buy at the store or terra cotta, which would definately hold the heat.

As for remedying the problem short of changing out the rheostat to something more sensitive, what about placing the warm hide in a not so warm area on the warm end of the cage? Like instead of directly over/under the heating element off to the side, so that it's warm..just not as warm. By the way, what are you using for heating? UTH or lamp?

I use a UTH, and yes, the little salsa bowl in question is made of plastic. The previous hide was a decorative pet store model, made of acrylic/ceramic? It just seemed to be a bit too big for him. I think I may try to reposition the hide to a corner of the warm end where there is a gap between the UTH and the edge of the viv and see if that helps. Right now, temps under the hide are hovering around 90 at my lowest rheostat setting. Thanks for the advice and any more tips would be appreciated.

Phillip

is your heater the type that sticks to your viv?

problem solved ...

Yes. I have a stick-on UTH, but I solved my problem. I bored several small holes in the top of the bowl and repositioned it to the far corner of the warm end of my viv. I'm getting constant temps of 83-84 degrees. Henry has already gone inside and checked out his new digs. Thanks for the tips everyone.

Update ...

Ok, so now I'm a little worried. After Henry's possible regurge, I waited the ten days, and fed him another day old pink Thursday night. Everything seemed fine, but, when I got home last night (Saturday) ... regurge. No mistaking this one.

I'm pretty sure it's a temp problem. As I previously stated, I got him a new hide on the warm end, and he seems to like it ok. He's spent quite a bit of time in it. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure he's in there right now. My temps under the hide are holding between 83-85, but the only problem is, he doesn't seem to want to go in it after a feed.

After his meal Thursday night, he headed straight for the waterbowl/hide on the cool end. Since I got him, it has definitely been his hide of choice. Do you think I should move the waterbowl/hide to the warm end since he seems to feel secure there? Would this cause an unacceptable humidity level? The waterdish is a decorative model that looks like a hollowed out rock formation, with hiding places underneath. The basin that holds the water is elevated a few inches, so the actual bottom of the waterbowl wouldn't touch the heated substrate.

Perhaps I should just move the waterbowl/hide to the warm side (without the water) and get a new waterdish? Maybe I should get a duplicate waterbowl/hide for the warm end and use it strictly as a hide, since he seems to like it's dimensions? Maybe I should quit being neurotic and bugging you folks? I apologize, I'm just a bit worried about my little guy. I haven't had him very long and he's only had three (possibly four) successful feeds since he arrived. He appears to be healthy otherwise, quite active and by appearance, in good physical shape.

Once again, I'm going to wait the ten days, and, per Kathy Love's guidelines, feed a half a pink for the next several successive feeds and try to work him up gradually. I may also try to use GSE in his water to see if that helps.

Again, sorry to be bothersome, but you folks know your stuff.

Phillip

Hrm, well its hard to say. It could be the temps, it could also be something else entirely. Most of my recurrent regurgers work it out after a couple of times. Sometimes the pink isn't right or whatnot. How clean do you keep your water bowl? I've found that if mine go a week or more and the aspen dust accumulates in the bowl, that I'll get a regurge or two. So I make it a must to put the water bowls in the dishwasher every week.

GSE might help align the acidity in his stomach and kill whatever excessive flora there might be. Probiotics are another alternative of mine. They now sell reptile probiotics at PetSmart, or you can do the old fashioned route of taking some Acidophilus capsules and breaking them open, and tapping the butt of a moist pink in the powder. That usually seems to help with the right sort of flora in the gut. But if he keeps it up, your best bet would be to take a fecal sample to a herp vet and get it analyzed.

As for the hides, if he seems to prefer the one hide over the other why not get him another "water bowl hide" and superglue a fake plant in the bowl on the top? =P

I have found approved UTH's to be too hot for me when I stuck them on the bottom of the aquarium. Invariably the reptile in question digs down through the substrate and gets too close to the heat for my comfort. So I never stick them on. I use the feet to elevate the aquarium, but I just place the UTH underneath on a homemade wire grate. It's basically suspended between the bottom of the aquarium and the table top. It also gives me freedom to move it anywhere I want, so its not so permanent. I haven't had a problem with the table getting too hot at all, as I allow for plenty of circulation. I make sure it keeps the warm end warm, not hot.

Those are about the only suggestions I can offer for this round. Hopefully it helps some.

I know they make cage mats to keep your snake off of the heater if your snake likes to burrow. Mine never has unless the cage was too cool, in the cool end. With the heat lamp, she seems very comfortable.