Mystery Line Corns with Lava in the Mix?

[Rich Z]

Oh, it gets even better than that.

I didn't realize that the original UltraHypos (which I later thought were actually Ultras or even Ultramels) I bought years ago from Mike Falcon were also apparently homo for "hypo" (or maybe it was "Strawberry") as well. I can recall my first breedings using these new "UltraHypos" I got were to my "standard" line of Hypos that I got from Bill and Kathy Love back when that line was also very new on the scene. Since I got all Hypos THAT time from the breeding trials, I didn't think anything of it and thought that Mike has merely labelled a differently colored and slightly brighter "hypo" as an "UltraHypo", which is exactly what he called them back then. So I didn't give it much thought, and didn't even use that line very much in subsequent breedings, as I thought it was merely an odd variation of standard "Hypo". For the record, I NEVER purposely bred Hypo to Amel, simply because I felt it would be a complete waste of resources to do so. I've always felt that Amel would obscure Hypo, and except for the other genetic influences on color, Hypo would have no effect on Amel, so why bother? So I certainly never would have discovered the important correlation between Ultra and Amel. Speaking of which, if I recall correctly, Chuck told me in a correspondence (here on this site, I believe) when he was still speaking to me, that it was someone else who actually came up with the spark of recognition of the Ultra/Ultramel/Amel relationship. I believe that someone else was Kat Hall, if my memory serves me well...

Obviously from above, "Hypo", "Strawberry", and "Ultra" have gotten thoroughly intermixed together over the last couple of decades. It wasn't until I actually started purposely producing Hypo/Ultra and Hypo/Ultramel, especially when combined with Caramel, that some of the animals started looking familiar to that original stock of "UltraHypos" and some small pieces started falling in place. But alas, it was too little, too late for me, even had I been inclined to jump into that particular whirlpool.

Interestingly enough, my collection had been mostly closed to new stock for a rather long time, so trying to figure out NOW where the "Strawberry" line actually originated would be a puzzler. I'm guessing that it is quite likely that since the only new animals I had added were the UltraHypos from Mike Falcon and the GoldDusts from Mike Shiver (which he only referred to as "Ambers" at that time), {and a lone male Hypo Lavender Blood Red from Vinnie Ritchie} that either of those two Mikes are the most likely sources of that line. Seems to me the first I noticed this "hypo anomaly" was when I started working on my Crimson line, and I know I named them that specifically because of the deep rich red coloration of those animals. Hypo Lavenders also gave me fits, but only to the extent that it seemed that I could ONLY get brightly colored MALES, and the females just didn't appear to exhibit Hypomelanism for me. But I have no recollection whether that Crimsons project started before or after the introduction of the UltraHypos into my genepool. Regardless, I could STILL breed identically looking Crimsons together and get ALL normals, so I'm still at a loss about what the heck was going on there. Certainly not anything I can hope to resolve at this late date. I did keep an entire clutch from such a breeding that had all turned out normal and bred them together thinking that if I was dealing with two different but identical looking Hypo genes, then I SHOULD get at least a few examples in the next generation that would hopefully have some difference in appearance to indicate that this was taking place. Alas, nothing like that turned out in the 5 or 6 clutches that resulted from that test breeding. With odds of 1 in 16 with a good number of animals produced, you would think that SOMETHING enlightening would have hatched out! But nope. That is pretty much when I stopped worrying about it. Some answers just were not worth the effort it would have taken me to try to get them.

BTW, is that "Mystery" line you are referring to the line that Rich Hume is working with that came from Vinnie Ritchie? If so, I kind of hate to have to tell you where those animals from Vinnie came from..... :sidestep:

 

[chris68]

If the relationship between Strawberry and Hypo is similar to Ultra and Amel, have you noticed any visible "difference" in animals that are both het for Hypo and Strawberry?

 

[Susan]

Just out of curiosity Rich, when you got "normals" from a pair of "hypos", did you ever keep any back to see how they would look like as adults and to do any test breedings on? Reason I ask is that I paired a ghost motley female with an amber I purchased from you and swore that I got all normal offspring. At least they looked like normals at hatching. Only one that I had kept survived for awhile (she was never a very thrifty snake), long enough for me to see that she was indeed hypomelanistic, just different than what I usually produce.

 

[Tom Tuttle]

BTW, is that "Mystery" line you are referring to the line that Rich Hume is working with that came from Vinnie Ritchie? If so, I kind of hate to have to tell you where those animals from Vinnie came from.....


Here is an f-1 male that I got from Vinnie. He is a direct descendant of the hypo lavender bloodred that Rich spoke of in the above post.

 

[Rich Z]

Just out of curiosity Rich, when you got "normals" from a pair of "hypos", did you ever keep any back to see how they would look like as adults and to do any test breedings on? Reason I ask is that I paired a ghost motley female with an amber I purchased from you and swore that I got all normal offspring. At least they looked like normals at hatching. Only one that I had kept survived for awhile (she was never a very thrifty snake), long enough for me to see that she was indeed hypomelanistic, just different than what I usually produce.

I believe there are still more variations of "hypo" to be discovered and isolated. I was working on one strain that I had forgotten about until I was bagging up the last batches of babies to ship out. A while back I had noticed a few different looking animals that hatched out and decided to hold them back. Nothing real special about them, but they just were sort of "inbetween" what a normal and hypo would look like. Well, I grew them up and they turned into full fledged hypos eventually. And I promptly forgot about them. Until I happened to breed them with some other related bloodlines and got a lot more of them. Well, ever notice how some Motleys and some Caramels will get much lighter and brighter as they mature? Well, I believe this was the missing link that causes that in those animals. Unfortunately, this revelation was way too late for me to do anything about it, and with everything going on with closing down the business, I just never made any attempt to label them as to what I thought they were. So no telling where they are now, and quite likely most people would never even give them a second glance.

Seriously, I believe there is a LOT of stuff like that floating around waiting for a pair of eyeballs to just notice them.

As for the question about holding back those Crimson x Crimson breedings that produced normals, yes, I believe I addressed exactly that in my previous post in this thread.

 

[cornmorphs]

I believe I may have some babies from these lines too..
I'll have to get some pictures up, as some are pretty unusual.
Great story though joe

 

[ecreipeoj]

BTW, is that "Mystery" line you are referring to the line that Rich Hume is working with that came from Vinnie Ritchie? If so, I kind of hate to have to tell you where those animals from Vinnie came from..... :sidestep:

Please tell us, the information you know about the line. I have read confliction info.

I might have a few other questions we could talk over too about Rich Z line Corn Snakes. I have a few which I have been working with for several generations now and have recovered some potentially overlooked phenotypes. Do they have a genetic component that we can use to predict our breedings better? Do they explain some of our other mysteries?

I have bred Rich Z Crimson X Hypo from my older line and produced some Normals in the clutch. I have bred Rich Z Hypo Lavender X Hypo and produced some Normals in the clutch. It is obvious to me, that some Hypo Lines have two or more similar phenotypes, with different genetics.

 

[ecreipeoj]

The solution: Strawberry is an allele to Hypo, seems to also solve the questions I have always had about “Coral” Snows. I have had Coral Snows for many generations, but my Hypo Snows did not glow, like the line Jim started (Don S Corals). They had pink everywhere else you see on pink Snows, but did not have that something extra.

Don S Corals X other lines of Corals produce pink snakes alright, but not Corals. The Strawberry solution solves all of the questions when mixing lines of Corals. The possible genetic offspring are Strawberry Snows (Corals), Hypo Snows, and Hypo/Straw Snows.

The solution to my questions about Coral Snows is the Strawberry solution. The currently accepted genetic make up of a Coral Snow is Hypo, Amel and Anery. I believe we should change that. I believe Coral Snows are actually Strawberry Amel, and Anery. Why do some Coral Snows glow, like pink fingernail polish while others are just pink? I think the solution is Redcoat.

I think the definition of Coral Snow should be a Redcoat, Strawberry, Amel, Anery, or at least remove Hypo and ADD Strawberry to the definition. This is the only phenotype worthy of the name “Coral“. I am not completely sure about the Redcoat solution, but I know it exist. I think the only difference between a Strawberry Anery and Coral Ghost, maybe Redcoat.

 

[stephen]

So

If I am getting what you are saying about the mystery line corns is the ones that look like Hypos are Homo Strawberry?

 

[Rich Z]

Not that I ever really checked into the lineage, but my suspicion was always that the "Coral" line originated from the "Pastel Motley" or "Pastel Ghost" line that Mark Bell was producing a long time ago. These were very pink colored Ghosts, and I suspected that snows that came from this line most likely carried on that deep pinkish coloration. Not to say that there weren't other sources, as certainly any subtle gene will very likely get spread far and wide before noticed and isolated, but that was a likely scenario, in my opinion. Quite likely the first Coral Snows were produced from Ghosts, and therefore knowing that they were also homo for Hypo, people came to the conclusion that it was Hypo that produced the pink coloration in those "Coral Snows". I've felt it likely was a different influence, as the pink coloration was already evident in that Ghost line. I guess perhaps someone producing Ghosts based on the "Strawberry" line might just put another piece in the puzzle.

Oh yeah, if I remember correctly, the males from that "Pastel" line of Mark's were normally MUCH more pink colored than the females. If that means anything to anyone from an evidence standpoint.

I do remember asking Mark where that Pastel line originated from, but he could not recall the source.

 

[ecreipeoj]

If I am getting what you are saying about the mystery line corns is the ones that look like Hypos are Homo Strawberry?

Not exactly. Look at Tom’s Hypo X Amel breeding above. The Hypo in the mix looks like a HYPO/HYPO to me, with no Strawberry at all. The confusion, and therefore the Mystery, is that Hypo and Strawberry are both in the line. The Hypo gene combines with Lavender and Caramel, like we have seen before, but Strawberry Lavenders really stand out, like in my results this year. Some Mystery line Hypos are Hypo/Strawberry, which produces an in-between look.

Consider the difference in phenotypes of Ultra, Ultramel and Amel, then apply it to the phenos of Hypo, Hypo/Straw and Strawberry. Both of these examples are alleles, with three different genetic possibilities and three different possible phenotypes as well.

Not that I ever really checked into the lineage, but my suspicion was always that the "Coral" line originated from the "Pastel Motley" or "Pastel Ghost" line that Mark Bell was producing a long time ago. These were very pink colored Ghosts, and I suspected that snows that came from this line most likely carried on that deep pinkish coloration. Not to say that there weren't other sources, as certainly any subtle gene will very likely get spread far and wide before noticed and isolated, but that was a likely scenario, in my opinion. Quite likely the first Coral Snows were produced from Ghosts, and therefore knowing that they were also homo for Hypo, people came to the conclusion that it was Hypo that produced the pink coloration in those "Coral Snows". I've felt it likely was a different influence, as the pink coloration was already evident in that Ghost line. I guess perhaps someone producing Ghosts based on the "Strawberry" line might just put another piece in the puzzle.

Oh yeah, if I remember correctly, the males from that "Pastel" line of Mark's were normally MUCH more pink colored than the females. If that means anything to anyone from an evidence standpoint.

I do remember asking Mark where that Pastel line originated from, but he could not recall the source.

“Selective” breeding with Pastel Motleys could easily produce Strawberry Anery Motleys with high pink, and then Coral Snows and Coral Motleys. With the lack of the Strawberry Solution, the first thing everybody did was to bred them to the Hypos in their colony. This would produced Hypo/Straw Corals and Hypo/Straw Ghost in F1. F1 x F1 would still only produce a few of the original “Pastel” Motleys or Strawberry Anery Motleys.

There are Coral Ghost, Coral Snows, Coral Striped Snows, and Coral Ghost Vanishing Patterns already known to exist, and I would buy all of them that are available if I had the money. (My "Coral" definition, with Strawberry, not Hypo)

Perhaps you know some of them better as Salmons. Strawberry Anerys and Strawberry Snows have been produced for a few years now. As long as you keep Hypo out of the mix, they breed true. With the Strawberry solution, you can breed a Salmon ("Redcoat" Strawberry Snow) X Hypo Bloodred for example and know they are Straw/Hypos het for Redcoat Snow Bloodred.
Now breed F1’s again, (Straw/Hypos het for Snow Bloodred x Same) and one if four will be a Straw/Straw.

 

[stephen]

Well

I believe there is a different form of Hypo in those animals I bred a Hypo looking male to a known Hypo A Amber and produced all Caramels & Butters so the male that was used was Homo Caramel but not Hypo A which was very wierd since the male looked to be some type of hypo and it wasnt Ultra or Ultramel.

 

[Tom Tuttle]

Not exactly. Look at Tom’s Hypo X Amel breeding above. The Hypo in the mix looks like a HYPO/HYPO to me, with no Strawberry at all. The confusion, and therefore the Mystery, is that Hypo and Strawberry are both in the line. The Hypo gene combines with Lavender and Caramel, like we have seen before, but Strawberry Lavenders really stand out, like in my results this year. Some Mystery line Hypos are Hypo/Strawberry, which produces an in-between look.

Consider the difference in phenotypes of Ultra, Ultramel and Amel, then apply it to the phenos of Hypo, Hypo/Straw and Strawberry. Both of these examples are alleles, with three different genetic possibilities and three different possible phenotypes as well.


“Selective” breeding with Pastel Motleys could easily produce Strawberry Anery Motleys with high pink, and then Coral Snows and Coral Motleys. With the lack of the Strawberry Solution, the first thing everybody did was to bred them to the Hypos in their colony. This would produced Hypo/Straw Corals and Hypo/Straw Ghost in F1. F1 x F1 would still only produce a few of the original “Pastel” Motleys or Strawberry Anery Motleys.

There are Coral Ghost, Coral Snows, Coral Striped Snows, and Coral Ghost Vanishing Patterns already known to exist, and I would buy all of them that are available if I had the money. (My "Coral" definition, with Strawberry, not Hypo)

Perhaps you know some of them better as Salmons. Strawberry Anerys and Strawberry Snows have been produced for a few years now. As long as you keep Hypo out of the mix, they breed true. With the Strawberry solution, you can breed a Salmon ("Redcoat" Strawberry Snow) X Hypo Bloodred for example and know they are Straw/Hypos het for Redcoat Snow Bloodred.
Now breed F1’s again, (Straw/Hypos het for Snow Bloodred x Same) and one if four will be a Straw/Straw.

I believe there is a different form of Hypo in those animals I bred a Hypo looking male to a known Hypo A Amber and produced all Caramels & Butters so the male that was used was Homo Caramel but not Hypo A which was very wierd since the male looked to be some type of hypo and it wasnt Ultra or Ultramel.

I'm with Stephen on the different form of hypo, since I had much of the same results as him. I bred this male to a proven hypo A Lavender of mine & produced no hypo's. The same male was bred to the amel (female from Stephen) and produced some odd looking hypos along with some other cool animals. The same male was bred to a Amber/het amel and produced Caramels & butters.
I have several different generations of mystery animals to breed. The original f-1 from Vinnie, a pair from Stephen, a pair from Rich in addition to the offspring I have kept.
Joe the part I highlighted in your post is a bit confusing to me. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but it seems to be in contradiction to the rest of your post.:shrugs:
Should strawberry prove to be in this line, I'll be more than happy!

Here are a couple photo's of the male I got from Stephen. He is proven homo Caramel & Lavender along with several hets.

W/O Flash

 

[Tom Tuttle]

I'm pretty sure that Tim (T&J) has some of Stephen's caramel offspring. Hopefully he can share his results.

 

[airenlow]

This is my '09 Mystery corn from Stephen. She came from a Caramel het Amel Hypo pairing...

 

[ecreipeoj]

I'm with Stephen on the different form of hypo, since I had much of the same results as him. I bred this male to a proven hypo A Lavender of mine & produced no hypo's. The same male was bred to the amel (female from Stephen) and produced some odd looking hypos along with some other cool animals. The same male was bred to a Amber/het amel and produced Caramels & butters.
I have several different generations of mystery animals to breed. The original f-1 from Vinnie, a pair from Stephen, a pair from Rich in addition to the offspring I have kept.
Joe the part I highlighted in your post is a bit confusing to me. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but it seems to be in contradiction to the rest of your post.:shrugs:
Should strawberry prove to be in this line, I'll be more than happy!

Here are a couple photo's of the male I got from Stephen. He is proven homo Caramel & Lavender along with several hets.

Another form of hypo could easily be in the Mystery Line. Lavenders in general have some hypo mimics in the line, such as something I have referred to as Sunset Lavenders, which might be Dilute. They look ghostly. I have mistaken them for being Homo "Hypo" Lavender and sold offspring as het Hypo, which were not.

The solution to MY Mystery Line Corns seems to be Strawberry to me. If I am wrong, there are worse things to be wrong about. Strawberry doesn’t exactly solve all three of my pink females genotype. I have no experience with Caramel Lavender morphs yet, or know how Charcoal mixed with Anery, Lavender, and Caramel will look like. Several of my Lavender Bloodreds have proven to be het for Hypo Charcoal and Anery. Good grief, Rich what did you do to Lavenders?

My “selective” breeding example is contradictory on purpose so that is why it was in quotes. So many people want to use selective breeding as a catch all for things that may have a genetic cause. Visual selective breeding can match up genes visually without somebody knowing why.

If Pastel Motleys are actually Strawberry Anery Motleys, this is how selective breeding could match up this make up. A Breeder comes along an Anery Motley with more pink that normal, it is a Hypo/Straw Anery Motley. He breeds it to a Hypo Anery Motley and some of the offspring are pink like the pink parent. They are also Hypo/Straws. When the breeders raises up these offspring and breed them back together, or to the original pink parent. Some Strawberry Anery Motleys will be produced with tons of pink. The breeder pats himself on the back for “selective” breeding, when if fact he was working with alleles and didn’t know it.

The first time a customer buys a Pastel Motley, and breeds it to a Hypo Anery Motley, the process starts all over again. The same is true for Corals.

 

[Tom Tuttle]

Joe thanks for the clarification on "selective". I had planned on testing for charcoal with the lavender caramel male, unfortunately he passed away last year.

 

[Tom Tuttle]

This is my '09 Mystery corn from Stephen. She came from a Caramel het Amel Hypo pairing.

Very nice looking snake!! Do you plan on test breeding to lavender, or charcoal?

 

[ecreipeoj]

Joe thanks for the clarification on "selective". I had planned on testing for charcoal with the lavender caramel male, unfortunately he passed away last year.

The Mystery Line is still a mystery that may be solvable. I don’t know much about the origins of the line or where they all are, but I do know, the line has a ton of possible hets in it and everybody has different genes in their Mystery Line Corns.

Rich Hume told me that the Caramel Bloodred he used to make my Het Topaz Bloods was het for Hypo, Anery, Charcoal and Lavender. I guess somebody had hets for Caramel, Diffused, Hypo, Anery, Charcoal and Lavender and I even think Amel is in the line.

Now breed this het to a Het for Caramel, Diffused, STRAW, Anery, Charcoal, Lavender, Amel from the same line. Find a genetic calculator that is programmed with the Straw/Hypo solution, and see what pops out. The list of possibilities may take pages to list. Now add in Sunset Lavenders, which may be Dilute to both sides of the equation and the possibilities are almost endless. Some Hypo X “Hypo” breedings would not produce hypos, because they are Hypo X Dilute breedings in this example.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Speaking of which, if I recall correctly, Chuck told me in a correspondence (here on this site, I believe) when he was still speaking to me, that it was someone else who actually came up with the spark of recognition of the Ultra/Ultramel/Amel relationship. I believe that someone else was Kat Hall, if my memory serves me well...

The Ultra Mystery Thread is very unique. It brought Corn Snake enthusiast from around the country together to solve a mystery. Kat saw what others saw for quite a few years, but because she was interested in learning more about genetics. She saw something that she knew wasn’t right in her clutch. I think I ended up obtaining the Ultramel in her clutch that was het for Lavender and made Ultramel Lavenders out of them in two years. He was a Redcoat too!

I have read the Ultra Mystery Thread in the past many times, but when I do a search by “number of hits”, or "number of views”, to find it today, and I see that I made the last post, I personally get pissed off all over again. I feel this way for a few seconds or minutes and then I get completely over it.

Not only does this thread solve the Ultra Mystery, but it presents more evidence of hybridization than any other that I know of, other than Creamcicles. Both sides took different political positions, and today, hybrid Ultra Line Corns are bred into absolutely every morph, so be it. I have seen wholesalers dump 100’s of Amels and Creamcicles in the same tub and sell them as Amels, or Creamcicles depending on what the customer wanted. Creamcicles too, have been bred into every morph as well.

If somebody has read the thread recently, see who presents the solution of alleles. I don’t actually remember for sure, but I think it was Serpwidgets. At least when he agreed with the idea of alleles, I trusted him enough to see it too. I am sure Kat knows as much about Basic Corn Snake Genetics today as I do. Kat and I do not talk to each other today either, but we respectfully ignore each other and post on the same threads.