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COHABBING QUESTIONS AND ADVICE

I am probably going to regret being involved in this discussion.....

But the last couple of days I have been thinking a lot about the cultural differences and it's kind of interesting IMO.

In my country I have never seen such strong emotions regarding cohabbing, in fact, I'm pretty shocked that this is such a "religious" matter here. Even though most people won't exactly recommend it, you are not at risk of getting accused of cruelty or anything like that.

Also I don't hear nearly as many horror stories about it.

I have been wondering about if it could have something to do with stress level besides from the cohabbing. In my country we generally don't handle our snakes nearly as much as you guys do - and in contrast to cohabbing, extensive handling is something that can cause people to get very angry with you. And I agree. IMO handling is usually stressful for the snake and the owner does it solely for his/hers own pleasure, cause the snake will rather be left alone. A lot of people only handle their snakes when they feed them and if they are fed in the viv, not even then. Note that I am not judging anyone!

But I have been thinking that you might see more problems with cohabbing because you have more stress factors for the snakes in daily life in general.

I am not advocating cohabbing - and if I should get two more snakes (but I'm not) then I probably wouldn't do it. But at the same time I'm pragmatic. If you use your eyes wisely and is observant and react to changes, I really think the risk is very minor. And if you snakes shows no signs of stress whatsoever and are functioning perfectly, then chances are that they are perfectly fine. Not saying that there aren't disadvantages to cohabbing anyway and you have to use your head, if you chose to do it anyway.

I have never heard of a single documented case where one adult corn snake has eaten another - babies are, of course, another matter.
 
I seriously do not understand the reason for these threads. Someone comes in and asks for advice on cohabing or feeding live vs f/t, and when told all of the reasons not to or to. Instead of taking the advice given to them, they go "well that's your opinion" or "give me the science behind it". It is very interesting how the only advice anyone wants to ever listen to is the opinions who back their own. First, please start using the search function. It is very tiring to see the constant Feeding/cohabing threads popping up, all the time. It just causes issues. There are plenty of examples of how the main population on this website views both cohabing and feeding.
It seems as though these types of threads only ever get started because the OP wants to start an argument. I am not saying that of the OP of this thread, but it is a very tired and dead old horse. Let it lay down and die.... Though I know this will land on deaf ears.
 
starsevol said:
It is obvious that he does not care about his animals.
Why would you think he would bother taking any of them to a vet?
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You know, I had the same exact thought as I typed that, and almost added it in. But I decided to try to think positive, even though it looks like him taking a maimed beardie or three to the vet (be it because he's too proud to admit he's wrong, doesn't want to spend the money, just doesn't care, or all of the above) is only slightly more likely than my tortoises turning carnivore. :rolleyes:
 
Tick-Tag said:
I am probably going to regret being involved in this discussion.....

But the last couple of days I have been thinking a lot about the cultural differences and it's kind of interesting IMO.

In my country I have never seen such strong emotions regarding cohabbing, in fact, I'm pretty shocked that this is such a "religious" matter here. Even though most people won't exactly recommend it, you are not at risk of getting accused of cruelty or anything like that.
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I think that in Europe, many people who do keep snakes and cohabitate often do so with much larger vivs than we do here. I think it was brought up earlier.. I think that the reason why we see so many issues is because it was done incorrectly. I'm sure that if you had a huge 6 x 2 cage with tons of decor and two hot spots on opposite ends many people would not have issues cohabbing two females. The issues arise when there are two snakes of unknown gender kept in requirements that would suite a single corn. I personally would not cohab at all, but when I was a newbie I kept two males together under the pretense that it was okay until they reached adulthood. Looking back, the two of them both showed stress behaviors. I no longer cohab any snakes, and each of my corns are kept in cages that have four square feet of floor space (as adults). I do hold my motley and my anery at the same time on rare occasions and they don't mind. But one is male and the other female, so I don't think it is that weird for them to come in contact with each other. Any way, there are some members here who do cohabitate, but it is often with proven females in large vivs, and they know both those snakes very well and monitor for stress constantly.
 
Nanci said:
I can't believe someone really did this!!

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This picture may be "funny" but that was the standard exhibit at the AZA zoo for which I worked. We had two gaboons and two mambas in the same enclosure. In fact, we had several exhibits with co-habbed snakes (including corns) and never did cannibalism occur while I was there nor was I aware of cannibalism before and after my time there. That said, cohabbing successfully is not an indication that problems cannot or do not happen but it also does not automatically mean that it is always detrimental to the critters. Being AZA certified meant we had several protocols to follow for the well being of the animals and our vets had to approve the exhibits and the critters found within as well as constantly check for signs of stress due to life in an enclosure with or without cage mates. Lack of space was not an acceptable reason to co-hab but not co-habbing "just because" was also not a reason to refrain from doing so. When it was decided certain species (or same species) would be co-habbed, we looked for precedence of similar exhibits at other zoos as well as scouring the peer-reviewed literature on co-habbing, diet, combat etc.

Just my 2 cents from the other side of the fence to show that it is not set in stone that co-habbing is the most awful thing in the world. To add an extra penny for my thoughts, I personally do not co-hab my snakes nor recommend doing so without all of the above considerations in place and even then I am not sure I would give it two thumbs up.
 
I think different species, from different habitats, look unnatural when put together artificially.
 
Nanci said:
I think different species, from different habitats, look unnatural when put together artificially.
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dionythicus said:
Ditto, Nanci.
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What about an exhibit that would contain an eastern diamondback rattlesnake and a canebrake rattlesnake. Both occur in the same habitat and have been found co-habbing in nature at more than just a winter den. Would this be okay since it is not artificial?
 
Yikes such a touchy subject. I personally house all of my snakes seperately. But I know someone that has been keeping two corns in a 80 gallon tank for 8 years with no problem. They dont seem stressed out and they stay close together most of the time. Maybe an unusual situation.
 
I just happened to come accross this thread and I have my two female ghost corns co-habbed I never made this decision until breeding season. My reasons being that my one female Had always been very skidish constantly hiding anytime you walk in the room she'd run and hide. When I put my male in with her after only two days I started to notice and major difference she would come out and i would just sit there and watch her, when I decided to try and take her out one day my jaw almost dropped to the floor I could hold her without her squirming everywhere and anytime I would start to open the tank from that day forward she would poke her head up and come right too me. After I had to take the male out she started to get cranky again she seemed miserable. so I found another female to cohab her with since of course I can't have the male in there permenately and again her attitude changed and as the last post they do go their seperate ways from time to time but for the most part they stick together :) No body knows exactly what they do in the wild, but what we do know is in the wild their exposed to many more dangers the fact that they have us to watch over them and care for them is a blessing!
 
This is the thing, we as humans tend to cast human emotions on the animals in our care. Sure a furry thing can and does love you back. But we are talking about a primitive animal here. A serpent's life is centered around eating, hiding, taking a pooh and not being eaten. Sure some den together for the winter and you may even find some species coiled on the same rock. But the vast majority of these wonderful animals are solo. In nature the competition for food is prime concern and not who is coming over for a sleepover. There are so many bad examples of cohabbing gone wrong on here to even want to chance it with our beloved creatures. I know this is supposed to be the world of "to each his own" but here it impacts another living creature. If one snake is sick then both are sick, if one is compacted it is really hard to say which one. Underage gravid females can and do die regularly from problems laying the eggs. I would really suggest searching this site for all the cohabbing links before deciding the final living arrangements on the snakes.
 
I am not disagreeing in some cases its just not safe but both have been proved females and not saying that I was willing to take that chance but wanted to see if it was something that I could change and sure enough it wasn't just breeding her that changed her attitude it was the cohab factor. Not saying this from my personal beliefs but a lot of people would diagree that how most breeders keep thier reptiles in tupperwares on newspaper to conserve space is no life. I know all my snakes have a day and night cycle, substrate and glass to see out of. Many people could argue that catching snakes out of the wild and "providing them a better life free of danger" isn't acceptable and we dont see someone get picked on for that. I own a wild garter snake not going to hide it but in my belief if she was scared or unhappy she would be musking everytime I went near her which she doesn't I take her outside to get fresh air on nice days and put her on the lawn and she comes right back to me and try's to get up my legs. I dont want to go too far off topic but I guess my point is that there are a lot of snake owners out there that are not aware of the risks and health problems involved with the snakes they own I have run into far too many. Be thankful people come to us to ask our opinions and get the answers they are looking for from experience but it is not necessary to debate and try to make the decisions for them.
 
You might want to read all of a lengthy thread before resurrecting it. If you'd read all posts before yours, you might have thought again.

As a rule of thumb, a lot of long threads with many "reads" have been controversial topics which have resulted in heated debate.
 
I read many of the posts on this thread and quite honestly it doesn't serve justice to the people I have met and talked to on here. I feel that if I were a new comer and reading this at glance I wouldn't have wasted my time asking a question in fear that it would start something like this and yet my question would still not be answered. Maybe I am looking at thing to proper and thinking well all of these posts should have been directed with experiences and advice to the questionaire, not babling back and forth I dont know I dont have an issue with either or I understand other people have had problems but I have never met anyone personally who cohab's
 
I can't remember if I have replied to this thread or not but I have co-habbed in the past. This is after years of knowing my snakes inside and out before I felt comfortable. I would be happy to tell you how I did it and what my findings were if you are interested. I however will always say that co-habbing is not a good idea because I know the risks involved with co-habbing and I know that those risks are eliminated when you don't co-hab.
 
Cocoa3Ghost said:
I read many of the posts on this thread and quite honestly it doesn't serve justice to the people I have met and talked to on here. I feel that if I were a new comer and reading this at glance I wouldn't have wasted my time asking a question in fear that it would start something like this and yet my question would still not be answered. Maybe I am looking at thing to proper and thinking well all of these posts should have been directed with experiences and advice to the questionaire, not babling back and forth I dont know I dont have an issue with either or I understand other people have had problems but I have never met anyone personally who cohab's
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Answer to your question is very simple, if you care about your snakes you don't force them to live together, because they are solitary animals. Nature designed them that way.
My experiance is a dead snake from it, how about that?
Is that something you would want? Or maybe a stressed snake with a shortened lifespan? Snakes can BE stressed and not show it, because in the wild if you show any weakness it means you are easy prey.
 
cmalchow said:
I can't remember if I have replied to this thread or not but I have co-habbed in the past. This is after years of knowing my snakes inside and out before I felt comfortable. I would be happy to tell you how I did it and what my findings were if you are interested. I however will always say that co-habbing is not a good idea because I know the risks involved with co-habbing and I know that those risks are eliminated when you don't co-hab.
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I would apreciate your insight :)
 
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