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just how fast does it take snakes to get scale rot anyhow?

Want to see some stressed out snakes? Take a look at the racks of adults who get a breath of fresh air only when their containers pulled out for feeding or cleaning. How about snakes being brumated for over a year just because their offspring are not wanted or needed and doing so lightens the work load and lowers the feeding bill? How about snakes kept in deli cups for a year? How about the stress some venders' snakes endure going from show to show? Those who know me also know that I am not referring to all breeders and vendors. But the items mentioned above were either witnessed by myself or described to me by the "guilty" parties.

I guess what really bothers me is that someone like the OP can be ripped to shreds for being cruel, the entire country the Netherlands can be deemed unfit to own snakes (OK. That may be stretching the issue a little.), and when someone who boasts of hatching thousands of snakes posts a photo it is invariably followed by dozens of ooohs and ahhhs, congratulations, and pm's arranging purchases. How can people who hold their animals in such high regard and feel so strongly about animal cruelty have such double standards? If these were dogs such large breeding operations would be called puppy mills and their operators would be shunned if not arrested. At the very least their animals would be taken away from them. Probably the result of a phone call from one of us.

What about the large number of "by-product" snakes that weren't fortunate enough to inherit the target genetics? Does anyone really think these thousands of snakes get placed in quality homes? Does anyone know that many of these baby corn snakes end up as food items for coral snakes, king snakes, cobras, and other animals?

I have snakes in racks. I check every container every day. If you have any doubts about my husbandry practices shoot an email to the only person I can think of whose opinion might carry some weight with some of you; Jeff Galewood, Sr. of JMG Reptiles. I have wholesaled hatchlings, and quite frankly it is bothersome to me. It is not, however, as bothersome as the fact that I see so many people exhibit double standards. If you care about snakes as much as you claim to start recognizing that the breeders some you hold in such high regard as not good stewards of their animals. Look beyond the fact that someone produces the coolest corns on the planet this year and hold them accountable to the same standards you hold someone to who cohabs two snakes and encounters a problem.



I would agree with this Jim* with the exception that most of us posting here, that I know of, don't do any of the above and also do not condone it. (NOTE, we are addressing people that are posting here on this thread)
although, there are people ON this forum who do.
I think the people posting here though go out of their way to make sure their snakes are living in the least stress free environment possible within captivity. I know I do.
 
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. So they are trying to have sex with each other. That is not necessarily stress related (as I pointed out earlier, I have a male snake who was trying to mate with a piece of wood).

You don't think that would be stressful for the less dominant male? You think he *wants* to be chased and force to submit? They aren't mating because of stress, but the mating can/will *cause* stress.
 
The thing is, nothing I see written in any of the OPs posts proves that the snakes are under stress.

You are the only one having a problem seeing it.

You must be referring to a different case than the one I heard of - the only case of her that I heard of was where she was breeding a king snake to a corn and - stupidly - left the room while they were at it. She knows that was a grave mistake, but that doesn't have much to do with cohabbing. If it was another case, please correct me.

That's not what she posted here.

I put a corn accidentally in a kingsnake vivs and the corn was eaten by the king.
 
You are the only one having a problem seeing it.



That's not what she posted here.

Ah, that was close to what I rembered, my bad. In any case, it was a mistake - mistakes happen. This was not an intentional cohabbing, it was an honest mistake. At the time, I know that Barbara moved some snakes around from certain vivs into other vivs for more optimal housing, and that might have caused confusion.

Compare that to my situation, for instance. I only have 5 snakes, each of which always stay in the same viv. There is absolutely no chance for me to mix any of that up. Furthermore, I only keep corn snakes, which also reduces the risk (as kings are much more likely to eat another species, which btw, isn't cannibalism).
 
Ah, that was close to what I rembered, my bad. In any case, it was a mistake - mistakes happen. This was not an intentional cohabbing, it was an honest mistake. At the time, I know that Barbara moved some snakes around from certain vivs into other vivs for more optimal housing, and that might have caused confusion.

But if you were only putting one snake back in each viv, it would have never happened.
 
You don't think that would be stressful for the less dominant male? You think he *wants* to be chased and force to submit? They aren't mating because of stress, but the mating can/will *cause* stress.

Perhaps, perhaps not. In such a case, breeding your snakes would be "animal cruelty" and "killing your snakes" too, because... what if the female doesn't want to be chased and forced to submit?

The first post doesn't state any frequency of the behaviour either. If they are constantly doing it, I agree, it may cause a certain degree of stress. On the other hand, if they are like my Jake, they will only try to get on top of each other once and then be done with it for another year. Would like to get further information about this from the OP.
 
When a person keeping snakes singly opens a viv to remove the snake for whatever reason does so, she leaves the viv open. The snake can then be put back in its correct viv, or accidentally the viv of another snake who is also out. In either scenario, then snake is not harmed. If snakes are being cohabbed, one has to close the viv to prevent the other snake(s) from escaping. When one puts the snake back, if it goes in the wrong viv, death may result.

A simple mistake, yes. Tell that to the snake that lost its life. Sorry, fella!!
 
I posted articles which do explain stress in snakes and other reptiles. One even states to take in consideration if their is multiple inhabitants. You might want to read them.

Just because the enclosure is big enough for the snakes to stretch out length wise by no means it is large enough to house two adult corns without causing stress. Do each snake have its very own hide on both the warm and cool side?

Like others have stated, Barbra was not the best person to add up for an example for successful cohabbing. Mistakes do happen, I agree. However, that was a careless mistake that could of been avoided. We have seen her enclosures and by no means are they large enough to house more than one corn. Here is the link to the boa thread. http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124837&highlight=Boa's+enclosure.

The members that have posted in this thread truly care about the animals and only want the best for them. It has been proven time and again that cohabbing corn snakes does cause stress and health issues, the signs of stress can be hidden until it is too late. Again I refer to the articles I posted.


And I could of sworn someone said they were only going to stick to the photo gallery of this forum because it wasn't moderator heavy :shrugs:
 
I've read this entire thread and it's just become a broken record of bashing and blaming. I think the point has been made. After the second page it was apparent the OP was adamant on maintaining their husbandry beliefs yet everyone continued to carry on.
I'm new to this forum, but instead of jumping down peoples throats, I think if they clearly disagree with advice given, that should be the end of it. For new members, reading thread after thread of fighting & arguing over every topic from breeding to genetics to husbandry - It becomes quite embarrassing to read knowing new members come to these forums and see adults acting like 13 year old's ganging up on one another.

This forum is beneficial in many, many ways. However, not everyone will agree upon the same topics. It must be said that you can provide advice, but if it's not taken - can the topic just be dropped? Instead of ganging up on someone knowing it won't change anything, can you just provide your advice and leave it at that? Its obvious there are certain cliques formed on this site, and I for one am afraid to speak up regarding certain topics in fear of being attacked by one after the other.

Sorry, I just cringe reading this. It's embarrassing. This site consists entirely of adults. Parents. I truly love this forum, it's the only one I've ever actually registered with, knowing I need as much help as possible to provide my cornsnakes with the best care possible. I love coming here to learn more and more everyday. I believe that's the purpose of this forum.
 
I asked my teenager why the thought people would cohab snakes other than when breeding? He thought about it for a minute and said "Because they are lazy. However, there is no good reason to cohab".

WC_Redneck, I believe people get passionate because they TRULY want what is best for the animals involved. Do some people come across harsh? Yes. However, it is only after the other party doesn't give any good reason in doing something that could cause such harm to their beloved pets.
 
WCR, if you'll notice, there is a trend of the same poster having the last word over and over and maintaining she's right and they are wrong. If she would quit quoting and responding to each post, it would have died a long time ago.
 
When a person keeping snakes singly opens a viv to remove the snake for whatever reason does so, she leaves the viv open. The snake can then be put back in its correct viv, or accidentally the viv of another snake who is also out. In either scenario, then snake is not harmed. If snakes are being cohabbed, one has to close the viv to prevent the other snake(s) from escaping. When one puts the snake back, if it goes in the wrong viv, death may result.

A simple mistake, yes. Tell that to the snake that lost its life. Sorry, fella!!

Actually, I close the vivs behind me as well, one snake or not. I do this for two reasons. 1) Keeping the habit of ALWAYS closing a viv behind me helps me to make sure I never forget to close it when the snake is actually inside. 2) I like to keep the ambient temperature in the viv up. That way, both the cold end and the hot end stay at what they should be. The ambient temperature in the room where I keep my snakes is a bit lower than that, and that's why I keep the vivs closed as much as possible.

Putting the snake back in the wrong viv isn't caused by cohabbing, it's caused by failing to check which viv you're putting your snake back into. Not everyone needs to keep their doors open to remember where the snake is supposed to go. Some apparently do. That's not a reason to demonize cohabbing though.
 
Perhaps, perhaps not. In such a case, breeding your snakes would be "animal cruelty" and "killing your snakes" too, because... what if the female doesn't want to be chased and forced to submit?

See, here's a funny thing. When I pair my snakes together I *watch* them. If the female is unreceptive, I remove her within minutes of putting the two snakes together.

So if the female doesn't want to breed.... I don't force her to put up with a stressful situation.

Did the idea of separating them really not come to mind?
 
WCR so, if you know something is wrong and something is suffering, you won't stand up and fight to help it?

You think we do this because we are a "clique"? Sorry, but that's not a correct or fair assessment.

The reason we are still replying to the OP is because we have best long term well being of her snakes at heart. If we did not care, do you think we would waste our time with replies?

We are a group of passionate and dedicated keepers that strive to help others give the best care possible to their snakes.

Everyone is free to speak an opinion. No one should be afraid to, just know that people might not 100% agree, but different opinions provoke discussion.

WCR, if you'll notice, there is a trend of the same poster having the last word over and over and maintaining she's right and they are wrong. If she would quit quoting and responding to each post, it would have died a long time ago.

BINGO!
 
WCR, if you'll notice, there is a trend of the same poster having the last word over and over and maintaining she's right and they are wrong. If she would quit quoting and responding to each post, it would have died a long time ago.

When people attack someone else personally for the choices she makes (while having considered all the pros and cons) and she gets ganged up upon, I do feel I should say something, yes. If people then continue to reply and make statements that are either pure opinion and not based on anything or simply untrue, then yes, I feel the need to reply to that as well. That's what I meant on my other thread by being dragged into a discussion. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do, but that's what happened here. You also can't blame me alone for keeping this thread alive - all my replies have been getting responses as well.

Anyway, WestCoat_Redneck, this is exactly what I don't like about this forum. The only reason I still dare to state my opinion at times is because I feel certain things need to be said to keep this forum from becoming one big bash-fest just because the majority of the active posters share a certain opinion.

On topic: is there any change in the snakes' conditions so far? Hope they're getting better!
 
Actually, I close the vivs behind me as well, one snake or not. I do this for two reasons. 1) Keeping the habit of ALWAYS closing a viv behind me helps me to make sure I never forget to close it when the snake is actually inside. 2) I like to keep the ambient temperature in the viv up. That way, both the cold end and the hot end stay at what they should be. The ambient temperature in the room where I keep my snakes is a bit lower than that, and that's why I keep the vivs closed as much as possible.

Putting the snake back in the wrong viv isn't caused by cohabbing, it's caused by failing to check which viv you're putting your snake back into. Not everyone needs to keep their doors open to remember where the snake is supposed to go. Some apparently do. That's not a reason to demonize cohabbing though.

See, that wouldn't work for me, because while the snake is out, I remove and scrub the water bowl, and spot clean the viv. But I don't ever have the problem of forgetting to close the viv when the snake is inside.
 
See, that wouldn't work for me, because while the snake is out, I remove and scrub the water bowl, and spot clean the viv. But I don't ever have the problem of forgetting to close the viv when the snake is inside.

Yea, this is just personal preference and what works best for each person. I tend to take the snake out (e.g. for feeding), close the viv, put them in a seperate rub with food, return to the viv, do spot cleaning and take the water bowl out, close the viv behind me again, clean water bowl and fill, open viv again to replace water, close the viv, return to snake to see if it's fed and if so, replace the snake in the viv and close it behind me. I know it seems like a big hassle with all the opening and closing, but that's how it works best for me ^^
 
...this is exactly what I don't like about this forum. The only reason I still dare to state my opinion at times is because I feel certain things need to be said to keep this forum from becoming one big bash-fest just because the majority of the active posters share a certain opinion.

If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to be here or to reply...

Maybe we share a certain opinion because it's a good one that is widely supported by the reptile keeping community. :shrugs: Ever thought about that?
 
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