The Great Reptilinks Experiment!

[DuxorW]

I have decided to experiment with Reptilinks on some of my hatchlings and smaller corn snakes with the expectation that, since they are predicted to have up to twice the calories of the equivalent-sized rodent, I will see faster growth if I feed reptilinks on the same schedule as I would normally feed pinky mice. I do not anticipate any problems, as the links seem like they should be easy to digest.

I am not trying to powerfeed my snakes, but I do like to get them out of that more delicate hatchling phase and onto large fuzzies as as soon as I can. The advantage to these links is that they contain more calories in a similarly-sized package. I would not want to feed my hatchlings double pinks or larger pinks at this size out of fear of a regurge. I do not think this will be a problem with the links. In fact, if a snake does regurge a mouse, I wonder if the reptilinks, being easy to digest and containing more calories, might be beneficial to the snake until they can get back on mice?

You can learn more about the links at their website.

I plan on conducting the experiment using the following snakes. The phenotypes just serve as identifiers for me. The groups have roughly even mixtures of both males and females. The variability within the mouse-fed group will give me an idea of the extent of snake-to-snake variability in growth rate so that I can more accurately determine whether any increase in growth rate in the reptilink group is due to chance alone.

I will feed each animal every 7 days and record its weight before feeding. Thus I will calculate how much weight the snake gains with each feeding, as well as how long it takes each snake to grow from different milestones such as 50 to 100g.

Critically for the interpretation of the data, I will measure and record the weight of each mouse/reptilink meal and try to minimize the variation in food weight at each feeding.

Reptilink rabbit/chicken
Lava lavender m
Sk stripe f
Saffron f
Lava blood m
Orchid f
Pep stripe f1
Ero
Lava cinder
Pink snow
Sk amel f1

Mice group
Lava tess m
Sk hypo motley f
Pep stripe f2
Lava tess f
Sunkissed lava m
Ultramel okeetee f
Extreme ultramel f
Cinder motley
Sk amel f2
Sk bloodred stripe

 

[Christaberk]

I'm intrigued. I truly am.

Because there are different types of Reptilinks (contents of the links vary) which one will you be using? I assume the rodent one, correct?

 

[Nanci]

Interesting! I can't wait to see the results. To what weight do you anticipate continuing the study?

 

[DuxorW]

I'm intrigued. I truly am.

Because there are different types of Reptilinks (contents of the links vary) which one will you be using? I assume the rodent one, correct?

I am using the rabbit mini links, which actually only come in rabbit. The rabbit links also have fewer calories than the other links such as venison, and in their tests did not have a much higher calorie content than their mouse sample. However, they presumably were not using a pinky mouse as their sample, and I bet the rabbit mini links have way more calories than a pinky mouse which seem like fleshy water balloons to me. But it's possible I will not see a significant increase in growth with the links.

I ordered the 8-12g rabbit/chicken blend links because they were on sale. They don't have calorie info for this blend.

 

[DuxorW]

Interesting! I can't wait to see the results. To what weight do you anticipate continuing the study?

I'm not sure. There is a transition between pinky and hopper mice where the links may not be very cost effective: the links jump from 3-4 grams to 8-12 grams. So at one point I may have to feed 1.5 links in order for the prey to be the same size as what the mouse group is getting. But I did order a lot of "pinky" and "hopper" links...

 

[DuxorW]

Edited the original post with two new groups for the hopper-sized links.

 

[DuxorW]

This turns out not to be a straightforward as I thought! I initially had a very promising result with the links but I think it will take a long time to evaluate whether there is a difference.

For example, it appeared that the cinder motley gained about 4 grams after eating an 8g hopper, based on his weight this morning (88g). But I weighed him right before feeding and he was 97g! I suppose he could have gulped down a lot of water (I changed it today) but that seems like a lot.

Some of the reptilink animals pooped again and it altered the numbers substantially. So the only point of this update is to say I probably won't update this post after every feeding, I expect that a trend won't emerge until after several feelings.

Further, according to their website, there are 1614 calories/kg in the rabbit links and 1347 calories per kg of mouse. That translates to 1.6 calories per gram of rabbit link and 1.35 calories per gram of mouse. Assuming that we believe this analysis, the claim that the links contain twice the calories of the equivalent rodent is misleading (if not dishonest) for the rabbit links. The number of calories is probably even lower in the chicken/rabbit blend that I am using. It is really the venison links that appear to have almost twice the calories as a mouse of the same size. Thus I no longer necessarily expect that I will see increased growth rate, but I hope to be surprised.

 

[DuxorW]

It turns out that after a few feedings I saw nothing that makes me think the chicken and rabbit links make the snakes grow any faster than mice. The average weight gain over the period was 5-6g (with the animals fed mice having a tiny but likely statistically insignificant advantage in growth rate). I'll need more links soon to continue the experiment but didn't get any preliminary result that makes me think it is worth it. Given that the rabbit+chicken links have among the lowest calorie count among the different kinds of links, I imagine that is the culprit. The venison links have the highest (if memory serves, almost twice as many calories), and although I'm sure they are fine nutritionally, I think it's weird to feed deer to snakes!

 

[BeauBoi]

It turns out that after a few feedings I saw nothing that makes me think the chicken and rabbit links make the snakes grow any faster than mice. The average weight gain over the period was 5-6g (with the animals fed mice having a tiny but likely statistically insignificant advantage in growth rate). I'll need more links soon to continue the experiment but didn't get any preliminary result that makes me think it is worth it. Given that the rabbit+chicken links have among the lowest calorie count among the different kinds of links, I imagine that is the culprit. The venison links have the highest (if memory serves, almost twice as many calories), and although I'm sure they are fine nutritionally, I think it's weird to feed deer to snakes!

I am glad someone is studying them side-by-side with mice. I tried them when they first came out, but in all honesty I just didn't see the point. Mice are cheaper, and are a whole food source that the snake has evolved to eat (as opposed to rabbit or deer). None the less, I have been following your read and am interested to see the end results.
The only real reasons I have seen thus far for someone switching to the links are:
(1) the "yuck factor" of feeding mice/rats (doesn't bother me in the least, but I realize that there are people who it affects)
(2) availability issues in areas without easy access to rodents (which has thankfully decreased with the advent of the online frozen/thawed market

Thanks again! Look forward to your posts!
~Beau

 

[Kevin S.]

The rabbit links don't have twice as many calories per their nutritional chart, but they do have about 5% more protein and once the casing is digested, would presumably break down and be assimilated much more completely since it's just ground meat with more surface area. Mice with incisions in the skin lead to faster growth rates in corns since they digest more easily/completely. For that reason, I wouldn't be surprised if the snakes eating links grow faster even if calories, protein, and all other relevant factors are the same between the groups. There are a number of factors that could skew results in the short term, so don't lose hope yet. You're off to such a good start that I'd hate to see you quit before the results are apparent. I think if you stick with it another month or two, you'll see a more dramatic trend.

P.S. I couldn't find any nutritional information on their website for the chicken+rabbit links. Where did you see that it has the fewest calories?

 

[Kevin S.]

Mice are cheaper, and are a whole food source that the snake has evolved to eat (as opposed to rabbit or deer).

Pantherophis eat rabbits.

 

[BeauBoi]

Sure, adult snakes sometimes eat small sized rabbits. Now, please post a picture of a hatchling eating a rabbit, since reptilinks make "pinkie-sized links for hatchlings.
~Beau

 

[BeauBoi]

While you are at it, please post a corn snake of ANY size eating a deer in the wild.
~Beau

 

[Dragonling]

I mean...rabbit pinkies are pretty small too...

 

[DuxorW]

The calories in the chicken and rabbit links can be inferred from the rest of the chart. The venison links and the 50:50 venison chicken blend can be compared to calculate the caloric contribution of chicken. Divide the calories in venison link (2347) by 2, subtract that from the calories in the venison chicken blend (1929), and you get the calories contributed by chicken (about 755). Add this to half the calories from a rabbit link (1624/2). The result is that a chicken and rabbit link is estimated at 1562 calories per kilogram, slightly lower than the rabbit links. With ten snakes in each group, I did not get a promising preliminary result, with the mouse-feeders coming out barely ahead, although this is probably statistically insignificant. And given the alleged calorie count, I would have expected the link-fed mice to just barely come out ahead. Thus it is not really worth it to me personally to order more links, as any benefit that may or may not be there is likely to be very modest. However, assuming the snakes would eat the venison links, I would expect a faster growth rate. But I'm not interested in trying at this time.

I do plan on using the rest of my links, which is enough for two more rounds of feeding in the reptilink group.

 

[Haarstad]

Beau, you are referring to something that only has to do with the size of the prey vs the nutritional value of the meal.

I believe that if you were to have two separate groups, from birth, feeding on these two different regiments, the group with the links would end up growing at a faster rate or at least seem to digest more completely (and faster) than the group feeding on F/T.

Once your corns were large enough to take the links with venison or 50/50 venison/rabbit, I would switch to them. The increase of calories with the venison seems like a better recipe. The plus side to the chicken/rabbit, is the chicken has guts ground with it...

When it comes to snakes, I doubt they care what meat they have... They just eat what size they find. If corns like anoles more, then feed them anoles.. You don't because of cost/nutrition.

Please keep this thread going!

 

[BeauBoi]

Beau, you are referring to something that only has to do with the size of the prey vs the nutritional value of the meal.

I believe that if you were to have two separate groups, from birth, feeding on these two different regiments, the group with the links would end up growing at a faster rate or at least seem to digest more completely (and faster) than the group feeding on F/T.

Once your corns were large enough to take the links with venison or 50/50 venison/rabbit, I would switch to them. The increase of calories with the venison seems like a better recipe. The plus side to the chicken/rabbit, is the chicken has guts ground with it...

When it comes to snakes, I doubt they care what meat they have... They just eat what size they find. If corns like anoles more, then feed them anoles.. You don't because of cost/nutrition.

Please keep this thread going!

If you wish to experiement with your snakes health, then by all means, do so. I will stick with what is proven.
I came here to Thank the person doing the experiment, BEFORE I learned that he was ending the experiment.
Furthermore, he is ending the experiment because he says that his snakes seem to be doing BETTER on Mice.
If you want to be Reptilinks Cheer-Leader, that is your business, however at this point (IMO) you seem way too biased for me to trust your "advice". Do you have interest in the company or something?
Why EXACTLY are you so set on people changing to the links? They aren't cheaper. No study I have seen (except for ones done by Reptilinks themselves, which aren't peer reviewed) show them to be a superior source of nutrient. So please share with us all why exactly you are the "Local Reptilinks Rep"?
~Beau

 

[Haarstad]

Some people, don't believe in changing an animals diet away from whole prey items when they are built to handle it. Such as you...

If you do some searching, there is nothing added or processed about the ingredients in the Repti-links themselves.. The fact that they are ground up is just another benefit that some closed minded people can't see past. The point is to give these animals a better food source that they would never be able to eat because of the size.. Add the benefit of faster digestion and changing the prey item to suit your needs, I just don't see a downside...

Nutrition is statistics and statistics show that there are better meals for certain animals that they wouldn't normally be able to have. It doesn't mean that without these, your reptile is suffering... There are so many reasons why these COULD benefit and there is really no down side..

You can read for days about people badmouthing them but in they end, everything bad is just biased opinion..

I would just like to see an actual report of this and i liked what the PO was doing.. If you want to look for something bad about them that isn't opinion, just read...

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/gene...eptiles-alternative-food-source-reptiles.html

I am going to try them when they ship next month and hopefully my girls eat them, I'm just on the bandwagon cause there is no downside...


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[BeauBoi]

Some people, don't believe in changing an animals diet away from whole prey items when they are built to handle it. Such as you...

If you do some searching, there is nothing added or processed about the ingredients in the Repti-links themselves.. The fact that they are ground up is just another benefit that some closed minded people can't see past. The point is to give these animals a better food source that they would never be able to eat because of the size.. Add the benefit of faster digestion and changing the prey item to suit your needs, I just don't see a downside...

Nutrition is statistics and statistics show that there are better meals for certain animals that they wouldn't normally be able to have. It doesn't mean that without these, your reptile is suffering... There are so many reasons why these COULD benefit and there is really no down side..

You can read for days about people badmouthing them but in they end, everything bad is just biased opinion..

I would just like to see an actual report of this and i liked what the PO was doing.. If you want to look for something bad about them that isn't opinion, just read...

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/gene...eptiles-alternative-food-source-reptiles.html

I am going to try them when they ship next month and hopefully my girls eat them, I'm just on the bandwagon cause there is no downside...


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I NEVER said ANYTHING bad about them! And I LIKED what the OP was doing too! I THANKED him for doing it!
The ONLY said I didn't see a point in using them myself!
Since them YOU went on the offensive! I honestly don't know what your damage is, but I never attacked you, OR reptilinks, OR said that they were in any bad!
What is your damage!?!?
~Beau

 

[Haarstad]

I'm sorry beau, I must've misunderstood your tone when you called me a repti-link cheerleader or stated that I can experiment with my snakes health because of a food item being ground up... My bad

I was just stating the facts that ground up meat has no disadvantage to something whole... And this started cause you were asking if we had pics of Corns eating deer... And I was simply getting at "don't be dumb"... I was nice about it till you felt caps were necessary.. Plenty of snakes eat deer though if that's what you want to hear... Google is king


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