hybrids vs. nonhybrids

[Drizzt80]

Dear Mr. Fork, I honored you request for my friendship. Why? Because I believe you to be a reasonably intelligent and honest person. Those are the qualities I look for in friendship. People who simply agree with me without thought on their part are not very interesting. The fact that you are on the wrong side of the fence is not a issue.

You sure it wasn't just the $20?! I saw the handoff of cash . . . :sidestep:

D80

 

[wade]

I can't be bought for $20. Rented perhaps.

 

[TandJ]

Dang Wade.. $20 just to rent.. Umm for how long? I need some yard work done.. *LOL* Of course I generally hang on that other side of the fence so my grass is just a touch over grown on this side.. *snickers*

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[ForkedTung]

Dear Mr. Fork, I honored you request for my friendship. Why? Because I believe you to be a reasonably intelligent and honest person. Those are the qualities I look for in friendship. People who simply agree with me without thought on their part are not very interesting. The fact that you are on the wrong side of the fence is not a issue.

OK, cool thanks, Just one question: What is your definition of reasonably intelligent? I mean is this compared to a potato? a doorknob? or a master race of alien invaders?






PS) I've seen Drizz standing on the corner of that motel 8 in Dorfbunkle, Iowa so I'm pretty sure he can be rented as well...:uhoh:

 

[wade]

Reasonably intelligent.

 

[ForkedTung]

Reasonably inteligent.

ROFL, really ROFL ( although I think you may have just gotten yourself into some trouble when the better halves on this site get a peek at that. Quick replace it with a pic of a cow or something.)



ps) you spelled intelligent wrong, I love irony

 

[wade]

No I didn't

 

[vetusvates]

O.M.G.
I take a half-day to drive across the state of Louisiana, and I come back to this! Well, most all of you are already on my friends list,...which means at some point or another we bonded over some point or on some thread. Some of you I need to add.
(Wade, don't you go be making fun of me for being overly sentimental, or sappy.)

And like Wade, disagreeing on something would not determine whether or not you were on my friends list. (I had looked days ago and found you, tyflier, there, and that was cool.)

For kicks, I have one better than the "Roy Munson's Mule Caper". And it is a true story. And somewhat of an analogy to the inform/don't inform question.
My dad and my uncle went down to New Orleans to the Quarter back in the late 60's/early 70's to have a drink and do what unsupervised 20-something brothers do. (No SWMBO's around.) Well my uncle met this really hot chick, let's call her "Jungle Judy". Well the liquor flowed, and the hormones flowed. Things were electric. It was a Love Connection.
Well, far too late to UN-embarrass himself, my uncle discovered that Jungle Judy was neither from the jungle, nor a real Judy, if you know what I'm saying.
So....just exactly who should have told whom what...???

 

[diamondlil]

How can a tell a hybrid (corn/emoryi) from a full cornsnake? I have a rootbeer and creamsicle. To me, they look pretty much like my other corns. I have another one that has the same colors as my creamsicle, but I've noticed that some amels look very similar to the creamsicle (amel hybrid--right?).

What are some things that I should look for?

Thanks

So, how's the answer to the OP cooking?

 

[vetusvates]

So, how's the answer to the OP cooking?

Janine, I thought it was all over two days ago, on the 27th, on page 21....but.....

 

[Kokopelli]

No, I don't expect an outsider to know the professional language and terms and I certainly don't demand it. I do, however, expect them to acknowledge to themselves that they don't know everything and to therefore do everything they can to learn it, which means, they ask questions.

While I agree with this statement, I think that you can't really expect them not to make deductions and conclusions. At first they simply know there are tons of Corn morphs, why should Jungle not be a morph they don't know?

setting the matter aside though, I am -not- trying to change the world. I can't. I -can- however do what I think is right on the personal level- and by so doing, set an example here in my country. Not because I am an important individual but because the herp field is quite small here so everyone knows everyone.

The practice of accepting reality for what it is is one of the worst traits we human beings have. It allowed true horrors to take place throughout the world's history, it is responsible for many failures and mistakes. Saying that all human beings are inherently lazy simply is the equivalent of giving up and actually handing idiots an excuse to keep on buying without knowing anything cause heck- they're only human right?

Well no, I really don't think that's a good pattern of thinking. I am not an idealist, I don't think the whole world needs changing at a time- but I do know that every major shift follows a series of small steps. I am doing what I can- the rest of the world can do whatever it sees fit.

You live only once, might as well live it in a way which suits your own ideals rather than conform completely to the current reality with a white flag in your hand.

I never said I was trying to change the whole industry- I am trying to convince a couple more breeders by explaining my own rationals.

Be it as it may it doesn't mean I think badly of anyone. I know fully well that on this site the community is perfectly capable of having a discussion with opposite opinions and still remain closely knit and respectful to one another. Something which is sadly lacking in the forums back home.

So really, do whatever you want to do. It's not like I will be the one who ends up facing the results of your actions- be them good or bad. I can't say for sure that's it a "bad" thing cause it ain't. I made my claims, convinced? cool. Not convinced? ah well, least I tried.

 

[Ssthisto]

Ssssthisto--

Aiie. Double-ess-tee-aitch-eye-ess-tee-oh.

It really is part of my really real name and one reason I use it is because fewer people misspell it (being an unfamiliar word, they go back and look at the spelling twice to check) than they spell my first name (which looks familiar - and most people throw extra S into that too).

I'd bet dollars to donuts he had to ASK for that information. I'd be further willing to bet that MOST of the knowledge that MOST of us have on this forum was gathered through hard research and asking questions...not by someone handing us a list of names, dates, and answers to questions we never asked.

Every book I pick up has more information than I was specifically looking for at the time. Isn't that information being given to me unasked-for?

Maybe it's because I've worked in libraries and often find that the question being asked is not actually what the user needs to know. A new snake owner asking "Why does my new corn snake hide under his water bowl all the time" doesn't need the answer "because he's settling in." What they usually need is "Check your temperatures - it may be getting too hot for him on the warm side; he might just be settling in but it's best to check."

Alot of you seem to have mistakenly assumed that those of us who think "jungle corn" is accurate are unwilling to say anything else, and quite frankly...that's simply not the truth. You are only reading part of our posts...

But how much more real effort does it take to add those extra characters just to make SURE someone who might not ask the question for whatever reason does know?

I must relate an analogy of my own. Every show I've been to, there has been a breeder there who breeds lovely corn snakes. They're gorgeous, and I actually have stock from that breeder. But every show I notice there are no prices written on the labels of the boxes. To me that means one of two things - either that animal is not for sale or that if I have to ask, I can't afford it. In some cases, based on what I know of the market, the latter is almost certainly the truth... but I would have thought I could afford a caramel motley. How much extra time and effort does it cost to put a price on the box?

I have a bit of a phobia about talking to strangers, and I don't like "bothering" people who are busy if I might turn around and say "oh, right, I definitely can't afford that."

So I go to another table and check out their price-labelled snakes instead. If the information I'm looking for can't be found by reading the labels - whether that's price or species name - I am more likely to go to a competitor that does provide the information I want on the label. I'm not asking for full care sheets (although technically speaking over here those should be provided as per the Animal Welfare Act) ... but is a price and an accurate species name too much to ask? Jungle Corn X King £90. Makes a decent header line on a label far as I'm concerned!

Concerning the part highlighted in bold by me...

If that person had done their homework in the first place, the jungle corn could not have eaten the caramel corn simply because they would not have been in the same viv to begin with!

And plenty of people say "oh, well, it recommends not to do it but I've been co-housing animals for twenty years."

For every voice of "don't do it" there's someone else saying "But I do it and I've never had a problem." Heat mats without thermostats ("the pet shop said it would be ok"). Cohousing. Feeding live prey ("but it's natural") when the animal will eat prekilled.

If Valley Bulldog is the "industry standard" for a boxer/bulldog cross, then it is not a deceptive name.

You're having a website designed for you.
Would you like a Cyclic Image Slider or a Dynamic Image Slider?
How about a Mailing List or a E-mail Marketing System?

Those are industry-standard terms for three different things, but they're not common knowledge to someone just coming into the industry. I wouldn't expect you to know that a Cyclic Image Slider doesn't allow you to add new images to it - and that a Dynamic image slider is just as cyclic but allows user modifications with a back-office tool. We explain these things in writing BEFORE a customer signs off on the functionality so that they cannot come back later and say "But I didn't know I couldn't edit that!" (And yeah, we had that all the time - WE get it in the neck because the customer didn't understand the functionality list - until we started spelling it out clearly.)

Likewise I don't expect a newcomer to corn snakes to know that something labelled as a "jungle corn" is anything other than a corn snake... so I'll add the extra information in writing so they can't say they weren't told!

A Cinnamon corn is a hypo emoryiXcorn.
A Cinnamon royal is pure royal python.

How is someone who keeps royals to know that "cinnamon" isn't just a morph of corn snakes like it is in the species they're familiar with?

For kicks, I have one better than the "Roy Munson's Mule Caper". And it is a true story. And somewhat of an analogy to the inform/don't inform question.
My dad and my uncle went down to New Orleans to the Quarter back in the late 60's/early 70's to have a drink and do what unsupervised 20-something brothers do. (No SWMBO's around.) Well my uncle met this really hot chick, let's call her "Jungle Judy". Well the liquor flowed, and the hormones flowed. Things were electric. It was a Love Connection.
Well, far too late to UN-embarrass himself, my uncle discovered that Jungle Judy was neither from the jungle, nor a real Judy, if you know what I'm saying.
So....just exactly who should have told whom what...???

And I see that as the person who knew ("Jungle Judy") being just a touch mean-spirited towards the person who didn't. Disclosure should have happened before there was embarrassment to be had. Yeah, it might cost a sale or two to disclose that "this isn't a pure corn" from the outset in black and white - people who would have picked up the box, handed you the money and never asked questions no matter what morph it was. Those are probably the sales you WANT to lose.

 

[Bharmonika]

And cute puppies! The difference in the price tag should alert a purchaser that there may be something rotten in the state of Denmark. An English Bulldog usually has a $2000 - $4000 or higher price tag. A mix breed probably won't (unless the breeder is truly breeding solely for the money). And on a personal opinion note, English Bulldogs need to go back to square one. Anything that is literally physically incapable of reproducing on it's own, shouldn't be allowed to at all.

Just in doing some searches there is a grey area where these two breeds are similar in price. As with any breed you are going to have your pet quality prices and show quality prices and that's where you start to see the gap widen a bit. Especially now adays where "designer" breeds are the "in" thing to label what we used to call mutts, the prices are closer to each other. I hope that I am not misunderstanding what you meant by the comment about not being able to reproduce, but this breed has been around since before the early 1900's and they have no problems reproducing on their own.
Personally, I think that part of the issue with snakes, even more so than with dogs, is the fact that they are so reasonably priced compared to other pets. I am not complaining by any means, however, as a newbie(2 years ago)a cute little orange snake for $30 for my son would get a lot less questions than a $125 lavender morph. Also, questions about my snake didn't really start until I became interested in breeding him. Some of the questions that breeders feel a customer should know to ask wouldn't even occur to the average newbie who isn't even purchasing with breeding in mind. This isn't all customers, just a vast majority of them who are looking for a cheap, low-maitanence pet for their whiny kid(like I was).

 

[Midnght]

But that's exactly the point. If you (as a potential purchaser) don't have the initiative to say "I've heard of the English Bulldog and the American Bulldog, but what exactly is a Valley Bulldog?" . . . Well, I just don't get it. At that exact point, and no other, the breeder is now responsible for the truth. The only way the customer has a complaint to make is if they ask that question, and the breeder lies. There's zero complaint if the customer asks that question and gets the right answer. For me personally, that's all this discussion is about. The person handing over the cash has the ultimate responsibility to ask the question . . . if they end up being lied to, well then we can start talking about deception and dishonesy. If Valley Bulldog is the "industry standard" for a boxer/bulldog cross, then it is not a deceptive name. Nor is Jungle Corn. The assertion is made/assumed that Jungle Corn is deceptive and dishonest because it lacks the "hybrid" moniker. :shrugs:

D80

While they may have the ultimate responsibility in your eyes.

From my stand point.

Do yourself a favor by making a modest change to decrease the headaches, bad rep, etc that will be caused by individuals who WILL refuse to see their ignorance as not being your fault.

It's only a suggestion to do. But a good one.
Hot coffe lap burn mcdonalds woman is the perfect example to just hedge your bets for less stress.

Or not. It's up to you.

 

[tyflier]

While they may have the ultimate responsibility in your eyes.

From my stand point.

Do yourself a favor by making a modest change to decrease the headaches, bad rep, etc that will be caused by individuals who WILL refuse to see their ignorance as not being your fault.

It's only a suggestion to do. But a good one.
Hot coffe lap burn mcdonalds woman is the perfect example to just hedge your bets for less stress.

Or not. It's up to you.

Honestly...the rest of the topic aside...someone trying to pull stuff like that on me would be refused snakes in the future. I wouldn't worry about them "boycotting" me, because I don't want to sell to people like that, anyhow. Headaches like that aren't worth any price, and people like that will never be satisfied. Even if you do change one thing to help them(like labeling, for instance), they will try to blame you for something else.

I also am not remotely worried about people "ruining" my "reputation" with claims like that, because I save emails, and they better have proof to accuse me of anything, because I will have proof of my "defense". I always try to operate with clear communication, efficiency, and integrity, whether a buyer or seller. It's just the way I am...

So if I were ever to change my opinion on this issue, it would definitely not be for those reasons. It would be because new information or perspective causes me to rethink the issue, not to satisfy lazy, ignorant customers that kill their animals and try to blame me.

 

[Drizzt80]

Do yourself a favor by making a modest change to decrease the headaches, bad rep, etc that will be caused by individuals who WILL refuse to see their ignorance as not being your fault.

Interesting that I've read every word of your posts but you apparently haven't read mine. I don't breed hybrids, don't knowingly own hybrids, don't have any plans to breed hybrids, and therefore have no reason for changing my labeling style. Would this be further proof that YOU are lazy by not reading my posts on this subject. You didn't research the purchase of YOUR animals and YOU had an animal eaten by a hybrid. Bummer. Blame me if you'd like but there's three fingers pointing back at yourself.

Hot coffe lap burn mcdonalds woman is the perfect example to just hedge your bets for less stress.

Pefect choice for an example. Probably the starting point signaling the downfall of American society. Yeah, good choice. I guess the weak (and lazy) shall inherit the Earth. I refuse to feed, or condone, laziness.

D80

 

[ForkedTung]

Did you know that the Blue Whale is the largest known animal to ever have lived on Earth? Way bigger than any dinosaur, WAY BIGGER!!!
They've also been known to consume over 200 lbs. of tangerine-krill JELL-O in one sitting?

oops sorry wrong thread!
I'm such a Dorfbunkle...

 

[Drizzt80]

Did you know that the Blue Whale is the largest known animal to ever have lived on Earth? Way bigger than any dinosaur, WAY BIGGER!!!
They've also been known to consume over 200 lbs. of tangerine-krill JELL-O in one sitting?

oops sorry wrong thread!
I'm such a Dorfbunkle...

A bacon flavored Dorfbunkle at that!

Speaking of bacon . . . time to make venison sausage this weekend! What does that have to do with bacon you ask? We use a 50/50 mix of venison and pork. Mmmm, Mmmm good!!

D80

 

[ghosthousecorns]

 

[ForkedTung]

A bacon flavored Dorfbunkle at that!

Speaking of bacon . . . time to make venison sausage this weekend! What does that have to do with bacon you ask? We use a 50/50 mix of venison and pork. Mmmm, Mmmm good!!

D80

You gotta add that fat because the venison is so lean right? I'll take some and pay the shipping!, did you procure the venison yourself? Can it be fed to squirrels? or is the caffeine enough?