JimGERcream,
I'm not sure I'm following you. You state, I won't step much deeper into the tessera thing because I believe theres a good chance they're no pure corns." Then you state you may stop breeding Tesseras.... If there are no pure corns what difference does it make if you breed Tesseras if you like Tesseras? I'd say breed what you like and if you think they are suspect keep them labeled as suspect until you have proven otherwise, but I certainly wouldn't not breed something simply because it might be a hybrid. Homo sapiens might be a hybrid with neanderthal genes in our midst. |
I think Joe must have been dreaming as his fingers were typing. That's absolutely absurd. I have never seen ANY Cal. king influence or hybrid markers from ANY foreign entity whatsoever. :boring:
~Doug |
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@Carpe Serpentis
I like the look of them but I don't like to breed things which may not be that what they seem to be. That's the reason why I never stepped into the Ultra thing although there are some screaming morphs. "Pure" (at least as pure as possible) corns are more important to me than just the look. A solution could be just to sell the tessera offspring, so everyone knows what to expect. I won't sell the nontesseras of those breedings I think. I pretty sure would have stopped breeding them without the hybrid theory, so that is not the only reason. Atm Tesseras are getting a bit on my nerves and I want to focus more on my other projects like sunkissed ghostblood, hypo sunkissed kastanie, stargazer tests and some pied stuff. Tesseras were a just for fun project of mine just from the beginning, so it won't hurt me if I won't breed them in the future. I just want my Ghostblood Tessera, if I'm lucky enough to get one this year, I'll keep it and won't start any new Tessera projects. :shrugs: |
FWIW I as a small time casual hobbyist/breeder don't have near the experience of working with various NA colubrids, pure and possible crosses, to even have anything more/less than opinion on Hybrids, let alone hybrid markers. I don't know Joe enough to know if he does either. I have my opinion of Joe, never having dealt with him. I have an opinion on Tessera's, having seen several and keeping one that I traded...Enough folks have grumbled online and off (theres a large offline presence in the hobby btw) that as ridiculous as it may seem needs to be discussed because let's be honest, he's going to sell ALOT of Tessera's at that price...Wanna doubt I couldn't privately message him and get 5 or more for under a hundred bucks each? Anyone?
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Mitch, thanks for the good read and brain food. One of the top 10 critters in the snakeroom came from Joe, Kate Moss, an ultramel, which he now states is a hybrid. I got her back when that BOI thread was getting a lot of posts, and against the advice of many persons. I have never been disappointed with a purchase from Joe. Feelings about the ad are another matter. I have my doubts the majority of the ad viewers are going to see threads concerning this matter on other sites. Some persons observe a pattern or color and define what they see as "hybrid markers". I see "common ancestry". If Pines, Gophers, Corns, Milks, Kings, etc- did not share common ancestry, they would not produce fertile eggs when bred together. Why do they all have blotches on their backs? Split belly scales below the vent? Round pupils? Lay eggs which all take about the same amount of time to hatch? Granted, the colors vary a little bit, the patterns vary a little bit, the outermost layers of flesh have some variation. I was not there when any wild-caught gene or trait carrying "new" snake was found or captured. If someone takes a hybrid 3/4 corn outside, set it on the ground, and leave it there, and someone else finds it, have they not just collected a new 'wild caught'? To me it looks like 'wild-type' is an F1 dominant gene. More-so then Tessera. Because in Tess, I see degradation of the pattern, even within the F1's from the original female. Some (about 25-30%) have the full perfect unbroken stripe running the entire length of the back. Then there's the 25-35% with broken up stripe to the shattered-pattern-looking ones (not a reference to SK cinder here). They are still passed off as Tess, but if one takes into account that much of the pure tess pattern is missing, is it still a tessera just because it will fetch more money if labeled as one? What is the outcome of 'broken-pattern-tess' X wild-type not het for another pattern? If the parent of the broken pattern tess was a full-pattern-tess, I would expect a low percentage of the offspring to show full pattern, as with any other Line Bred or Locality trait. If one breeds an Okeetee with thick saddle borders to something unrelated, about half of the offspring have thick saddle borders. But we've been taught or learned, perhaps subconsciously, to not call that F1 dominant or co-dom. :sidestep: There appear to be many repetitive patterns throughout wild snakes globally, stripes, blotches, saddles, bands, and so forth. They may have different habits, behaviors, tendencies, reproduction techniques, etc, and do not all interbreed with each other, but simply based on pattern, if they do not have common ancestry somewhere back in time, are these examples of parallel evolution (parallel intelligent design if you prefer)? Do any of us humans who have been breeding snakes in the last century know for certain what happened during the preceding 300 million years on this planet? I may be totally wrong on all of this, which is why I often find myself pre-phrasing thoughts based on observation, with the phrase "It appears to me as if..." or "it looks to me like...", for I feel it is irresponsible to present my assumptions as facts. Quote:
One might even ask if it's ethical to breed a Rosy Rat to a Kentucky Cornsnake. If left as populations isolated from one another for 30 million more years, perhaps no fertile eggs would come from the pairing. If I want to get super-purist about it, then everything produced by mankind is man-made. How people used to define things, how they define things now, and how things will be compartmentalized in the future are all in flux. Personally, if it helps, I blame it all on the transportation and advertising industries. It doesn't matter who said what first, the 'Straw man" argument works both ways. http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...&postcount=254 and http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...&postcount=335 |
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Now if these were Cal. king hybrids, and this alleged patterning of the Cal. king were really this incredibly consistent and dominating over the cornsnake's blotch/saddle phenotype as it would have to be, then why isn't there EVER the tell-tale Cal. king spot behind the head?......or the typical "fork" bifercated nuchal marking on the head/neck from the Cal. king influence?......or ever the very typical Cal. king snout, supralabial/infralabial mottling ever present???? Those are about as typical Cal. king features as you can get across their entire board!. Also, why isn't there EVER any blotched/saddled babies from any of these clutches either, like in "Jungle Corns"? Those have also been bred with countless striped Cal. kings in the past too, not just banded phenotypes. Where are all these striped Tessera-looking "Jungle corns" then too while we are at it?. Surely THEY would be around too......RIGHT? Not to mention you can get ridiculous variations of stripes, bandeds, and Newport-Long Beach phenotypes in any given clutch of Cal. kings. Where are any banded and blotched Tesseras that would surely also be produced?. In short, there is just no way they would always be so consistent if they were hybrids, especially when out-crossed to all the countless normal phenotype cornsnakes that they have. I just don't see any of this, Chris............ I guess the divided anal plate and other scalation meristics is always corn too, yet the pattern that would be incredibly VARIABLE even with PURE Cal. king clutches is always just insanely and magically dominating here.... :rolleyes: ~Doug |
Dave, you're 100% correct. Although e.g. I noticed a massive physique in my original Tessera female, which is much different than I've ever seen in corns. There are so much weird things about that topic floating around, I've seen f2 and f3 striped lampropeltis x guttaus crosses which looked 99,9% identical to our Tesseras (shape & colouration, phew I tell ya that was scary), if I sum it up I think there's a good chance these are in fact the results of those hybridization. I don't know if they are, neither I can prove that nor I can prove the opposite, but personally, just for me, I draw the line here. I do see the possibility, so I don't want to step deeper into that subject. I don't say these are for sure hybrids, I'm just saying personally for me the risk they are hybrids is too high for me, because I've seen and reat all the facts about it. Of course, the definition of pureness and the discussion about it is endless, but personally I don't want to breed things which MAY come from a genus crossing. I'd prefer other things since other breeders prefer other things. I love the anerythristic, hypoA, sunkissed and bloodred gene, others don't. I'll let everyone breed their Tesseras if they want to, I just found out that gene is not what I want - nothing else. :)
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With regard to mention of saddle border thickness being passed on as a dominant gene.... Let me introduce you to the idea of tandem repeats in genetics.
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topic...ariation-40690 The saddle borders may be a tandem repeat-type situation, and the variation then seen in offspring is not due to a dominant trait, but the number of these repeats they got. Same with pied-sided, the level of diffusion, and basically *any* linebred trait. |
oh, and also........
Just to clarify what I stated in my earlier post above.....Sure, there are some "Jungle corns" that look very similar to Tesseras depending on what morph corns they were crossed with. But if you bred those to more normal phenotype corns, that phenotypic characteristic would immediately disappear, and you'd get plenty of very NON-Tessera phenotypes in F-1 and so on.
~Doug |
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