Cohabbing Misfortunes.

My two hatchlings were in a 4 foot by 16" cage and I STILL had a problem.

I'm starting to love this thread! Everybody is sharing, sometimes disagreeing, but no attacking and namecalling at all. That's so great!

I do agree that this can be a very useful thread to refer to the next time a new member asks about cohabbing. At least everything is in one place.
There are lots of downpoints in cohabbing, most of them because it's done without some good sense. And I think most here agree at the least that it should not be suggested to newbies as a good thing.
For the rest, opinions are different and always will be.
I myself have a few that I cohab most of the year. Individuals I have kept quite some time alone (as you should in quarantaine when you get them of course) and I know their 'normal' behaviour. I believe I mentioned it somewhere before: one of them I tried to cohab and it didn't work out. He didn't regurge, he didn't go off food, he didn't get sick. But his behaviour change was subtle but obvious if you looked for it. Had I left him there, I guess I would have gotten to those problems, but I'm not trying that out. He is in a viv alone, not to be tried to cohab again.
I have vivs for all of them, to seperate when nessecary, but some of them I put together when possible.

There are so many things that can go wrong, and if you don't want them to happen, you have to have a very keen eye for everything. This I think you only learn to see when building experience over the years.

Maybe a list is not a bad thing?

** Cannibalism: mostly in hatchlings, sometimes juviniles.

** breeding too young: sometimes people are told they won't breed at that age, sometimes the animals are sexed wrong (mistakes happen!). Breeding at too young an age is mostly dangerous for the female, as it increases chances for eggbinding.

** Stress: this can be the cause of several problems. Behaviour change (like spending more time in hides), refusal to eat, regurges, shedding problems, sickness, ... etc.

** When an individual gets ill or regurges, you don't know which one it is.

I probably forget a few here...

In the heated threads usually somebody asks for the benefits of cohabbing. I do cohab some, so I can answer this question here: there are none for the snake imo. All the benefits are for the owner.
And here is where that keen eye comes in: when this is the case, and you (like me) as owner still decide to cohab, responsability is yours too. Don't think "oh it won't happen here", because then your guard will go down.
But it IS your choice. Just make that choice with all the facts in your head.

I do think more space then being in a smaller viv alone or in a rack with less height is a benefit for the snake. Because putting snakes in racks is also beneficial for the owner mostly and done for the same reason (more snakes in same space) so I think it is a fair comparison.

AliCat37 said:

I know snakes do not get attached to each other, but I think since they were babies they found each other's company to be comforting, because even though they were offered so many hides, they were ALWAYS in the same one together.

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Just want to point out that it is a common misconception to think that because snakes utilize the same hides they must also "like" each other. Assigning human emotions to animals is something that many of us do, but realistically corns don't experience the same human thought process that we do of others of our own kind.

The snakes are most likely hiding in the same area because that temperature may be what their bodies need to do whatever it is they're doing.. digesting for example.

Try taking both snakes out, cleaning the cage, and placing the snakes in the tank at the same time. If you observe jerking motions, "sparing", and excessive pooping, the snakes are most likely being unnecessarily stressed by sharing a small environment together.

What is sparing?

Sparring is basically posture-fighting. Not always an outright attack, but the whole sort of "I'm gonna be top snake, just you see!" It can, of course, also involve 'real' fighting.

Ah, there was an 'r' missing... I had two adults males wrestling together after one had been with a female for the first time. That was the time to separate them, now they both live in a smaller viv, separated. Both don't show any sign of post traumatic stress.

The Denver Zoo co-habs. I think I might have a picture somewhere. I'll have to look. I get a kick out of being able to identify most of the fish and a lot of the reptiles now. I know that the cobras are together, but that seems to be a common thing. Maybe cobras are like garters and live in groups? I really don't know. I do know that the corns share an exhibit and don't seem to mind too much. I'll have to see if I have a picture though. If not, I'll just cart myself off to the zoo to get some pictures.

I was thinking, though, about some of the cage ideas I've been considering. One, for my four bearded dragons (2.2 no less). I was considering a "U" shaped cage much like a display case at a store. It would be about 9 feet x 5 feet x 9 feet, for example and 2 feet wide all the way around. We'll say it's three feet tall. That's roughly 54 x 30 x 54 cubic feet or 403 x 224 x 403 gallons (pretending we fill it all with water. That gives roughly 138 cubic feet or 1,030 gallons. That's fantastic for a cage and could possibly work for a few lizards.

My point is, with a cage this big, would cohabbing be "acceptable"?

Well, some will say yes, some will say no.

I visited a breeder a few years ago, when I got Sundance and Butch from him, and he didn't like racks at all. His vivs were huge, made out of converted wardrobes, with multiple levels, branches, vines..........and he cohabbed his adult corns in them as breeding pairs or trios, or in single sex groupings. He's not a member on here any more, but from what I remember he seemed quite successful with his set-ups. I didn't ask at the time what happened with his gravid females, I wish I had, but there were spare fairly large vivs so maybe he used those.

You wouldn't know what happens in our little country... I once saw a viv at a buyer's place measuring about 7,5 feet x 7,5 feet x 16 inch. It had cork lining on the rear wall and mutliple shelves and some plastic plants placed on it. There was one sink sized waterbowl. He had about 6 hatchlings/juvi's housed in there. They were looking at the world from their high hiding places, it was cute to see. He put in the three he bought from me with them. Not sure how I felt about that...

Little country? It's a quart bigger than mine!

wow 9 litlle ones together? hmm.

mkay... maybe co-habbing is more common in smalle conutries since we are all packed in our buildings too? If I see all those large houses surrounded by a garden in American documentaries I understand why they can have so many snakes without co-habbing...lol

lol in urban surroundings, I'm sure there are small appartments there too

So the question then becomes: If (generic)you don't have enough space to house the snakes, why do (generic)you have so many?

Not really you know.
It's just not considered 'not having enough space' as cohabbing is generally accepted.
Unfortunately some people don't have any common sense and don't learn about their pets habbits and ways of life. I'm sure you have that kind of people too, even apart from the cohabbing issue.

Shiari said:

So the question then becomes: If (generic)you don't have enough space to house the snakes, why do (generic)you have so many?

Click to expand...

In the case of the cohabbing set ups I saw, there was much more space devoted to the elaborate vivs than a rack system would have needed. It was like a reptile display in a zoo.
I know I said ages ago about cohabbing that there isn't a problem until there's a problem, but in this particular case, the breeder kept his small collection of corns in naturalistic displays that must have taken a lot more effort to make and maintain than any rack, and all his snakes were very healthy.
I prefer my easy to maintain rack system, but don't necessarily think an experienced keeper with large cohabbing vivs for adult snakes is doing wrong.

I really respect people who can find joy in keeping a smaller amount of corns in a couple of naturalistic displays which need a load of time to set up and maintain. Those are the ultimate snake keepers to me. I am not like that, as most snake keepers are not like that. However, I, as most snake keepers over here do, still want my snakes to be as happy and healthy as they can be within the environment I create for them. Both rack keepers and co-habbers fail compared to the ultimate snake keeper type mentioned above.

Jessicat said:

Just want to point out that it is a common misconception to think that because snakes utilize the same hides they must also "like" each other. Assigning human emotions to animals is something that many of us do, but realistically corns don't experience the same human thought process that we do of others of our own kind.

The snakes are most likely hiding in the same area because that temperature may be what their bodies need to do whatever it is they're doing.. digesting for example.

Try taking both snakes out, cleaning the cage, and placing the snakes in the tank at the same time. If you observe jerking motions, "sparing", and excessive pooping, the snakes are most likely being unnecessarily stressed by sharing a small environment together.

Click to expand...

Please, before you attack me, re-read what I had said
I stated that I KNOW snakes do not get attached or enjoy each others company. I know that they don't love, and that they don't like to be played with, and that they really would prefer to be left alone. I also said that these were two hatchlings in a 20 gallon long tank with plenty of spaces to hide and that they were together only for a few months until my roommate and I went our separate ways. This was already several years ago. So taking both snakes out and cleaning the cage really is not an option. I also stated that I do not cohab any of my current pet snakes, only a few hatchlings that I don't have the ability to house individually unless they go without heat.

I just got myself what I think is a snow coral hatchling at Petco, and they had 7 hatchlings in a 10 gallon tank.

I seemed to get really lucky with mine because so far she eats like a champ and is incredibly active, but needless to say I made sure to check for respiratory / mite problems pretty thoroughly before buying mine.

Was really sad to see like 4 hatchlings under the same hide (which, incidentally, was one of those giant half log turtle hides... way too big for hatchlings).