hybrids vs. nonhybrids

How can a tell a hybrid (corn/emoryi) from a full cornsnake? I have a rootbeer and creamsicle. To me, they look pretty much like my other corns. I have another one that has the same colors as my creamsicle, but I've noticed that some amels look very similar to the creamsicle (amel hybrid--right?).

What are some things that I should look for?

Thanks

The problem is that it's very difficult to tell Emoryi crosses (especially high-corn-content ones) from normal corns.

Great Plains Ratsnakes are pretty closely related to corns anyway - if you imagine a tree, with each species as the tip of a branch, GPRs and corns are probably offshoots of the same twig, which branched off of the other eastern-North-America ratsnakes (the Obsoletas). That makes it very difficult to say "If it looks like this it's absolutely a hybrid, but if it looks like that it isn't."

My personal rule is:

If it is described as having a hybrid parent, or if it was described as a hybrid itself, it doesn't matter whether it ACTUALLY is - it should be treated as though it was because it has reasonable doubt. If an amelanistic cornsnake-looking animal has a "creamsicle" parent, that makes the amel a Creamsicle no matter how much like a corn it looks.

Now, there are certain things that make me think "that's an obsoleta cross" if I see them in a North American Ratsnake - the 'ratsnake eyebrows', certain colours and patterns like a yellow belly on a visually striped animal...

I'm almost of the mind that we should say "From 2008, all cornsnake-like animals with no non-Pantherophis-genus heritage currently in captivity should be called Pantherophis familiaris (and given an appropriate new common name - North American Ratsnake?) unless both of their parents can be traced to wild-caught known-locality animals." That includes animals of emoryi or obsoleta heritage but NOT animals with Lampropeltis or Pituophis heritage - a Jungle or Turbo Corn still isn't a corn snake. Get rid of the "What if Ultra came from Grey Ratsnakes or Leucistic from Texas Rats or Stripe came from Everglades or Beeblebrox came from Mexican Night Snakes" stigma - if we're all breeding domesticated Ratsnakes it shouldn't matter too much; if we want pure corn snakes, then having animals that trace back to wild-caught locality animals should be reasonable too. Could be just me - if you're interested in keeping the animals for the colours and patterns in morph ratsnakes, does it matter whether they're pure guttattus as long as they're pure North American Ratsnake? If so, why?

Ssthisto said:

does it matter whether they're pure guttattus as long as they're pure North American Ratsnake? If so, why?

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Isn't that a little hypocritical? If you don't care about them being pure cornsnake, why do you care if they have genes from outside of the NA ratsnake-complex? In my eyes, either you care it is pure or you don't.

What is the difference betyween a cornsnake hybrid qith 10% Cal-King in it (for example) and one with 20% obsoleta? Both are hybrids. What is the difference between one and the other if the hybrid thing doesn't bother you?

I don't like any hybrids, but I now I've been in the minority since people started collecting snakes like stamps instead of keeping them to admire functioning portions of the ecosystem. I just can't see why you are saying hybrids are OK....as long as they are just limited to a mix of certain species. I'd love your explanation, though.

Thanks in advance,
KJ

KJUN said:

Isn't that a little hypocritical? If you don't care about them being pure cornsnake, why do you care if they have genes from outside of the NA ratsnake-complex? In my eyes, either you care it is pure or you don't.

What is the difference betyween a cornsnake hybrid qith 10% Cal-King in it (for example) and one with 20% obsoleta? Both are hybrids. What is the difference between one and the other if the hybrid thing doesn't bother you?

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It's not at all hypocritical: Corn and rat snakes belong to the same genus. NA corn/rat species are so closely related that species now recognized as separate were orginally classed as regional subspecies. They naturally interbreed where their ranges overlap.

This is not the case with snake species from other genera than Pantherophis (formerly Elaphe).

Also, it is verging on ridiculous to insist that an animal with 1% or less rat "blood" is the same as one with 50% or more rat "blood": "They are both hybids"; "Any snake with any amount of emoryi in its background is a hybrid"; "Any snake with any known emoryi ancester, no matter how far back must be labeled as a hybrid".

batwrangler said:

It's not at all hypocritical: Corn and rat snakes belong to the same genus. NA corn/rat species are so closely related that species now recognized as separate were orginally classed as regional subspecies. They naturally interbreed where their ranges overlap.

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So, you ignore the mounding data that says guttata is more different from obsoleta that obsoleta is from the current definition of Pituophis? Not to sound like a butt, but if you ignore large chunks of data, then you CAN draw any conclusion you want. PLUS, what about the resurgence of the idea that All the rats, fox, pine, bull, and gophersnakes belong in the same genus? There is no doubt that obsoleta and guttata are NOT as closely related as morphology originally lead people to believe.

PLUS, there is mounding data to support the hypothesis that has been going around for at least 2 decades to my personal knowledge that the ratsnakes are a very paraphyletic genus! That makes your entire argument crumble (if in fact this is true as many taxonomists currently believe), but that is irrelevant. Pituophis and Elaphe - regardless of the name you use - are sister taxa. Why do you arbitrarily say genus-level hybrids are OK to group together without record-keeping, but tribe-level hybrids aren't

I admitted I don't like hybrids - 1% or 50%. I don't have to bother explaining why I feel so personally, but YOU, on the other hand, projected a possible new way of doing business for ALL of us. I'm asking for justification of the basis for that supposition. I'm NOT asking why you personally think hybrids are OK - I don't care. I'm asking why you think it is OK, under your proposed system that makes no sense to me, to arbitrarily pick a paraphyletic genus for the "OK" level and not, for example, a tribe (or higher taxa) that is more likely to be monophyletic. At least THAT would have a meaning I could understand.

Really - I'm not arguing with your proposition - I'm asking for explanation on why you support the premise. I believe that is a fair question.

KJ

This is going to turn into a hybrid war...

patm1313 said:

This is going to turn into a hybrid war...

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This post helped how exactly how???? If you don't have anything to add new, don't try to START trouble, please.

I hope it doesn't. A premise was made. I'm asking for justification of the premise. I don't care if hybrids are good or bad. I don't like them. i believe the poster does. NONE OF THIS MATTERS IN THIS ARGUMENT.

I just want support of his premise. The poster seems to want the idea to catch on, so I'm giving the poster a chance to convince me his premise makes sense. This isn't an argument or even a debate (yet) - it is a request for knowledge and an explanation. It's an opportunity.

KJ

I hope it dosen't too. I rather like debates on hybrids, as I own one, but I just had a feeling that it would happen. After all, the title is "Hybrids vs. Non-Hybrids".

My intention, when I started the thread, was not to start an argument. The VS. was not a bid to argue, just a short way of writing "compared to". I just want to know how to tell the difference. I have a corn that looks quite a bit like my known creamsicle. I don't have any information on the parentage since he was given to me by someone who didn't want him any more. When I compare both my creamsicle and this snake to my other cornsnakes, I don't see a lot of differences. It would be good to know when he gets old enough to breed so I can label his babies correctly.

patm1313 said:

I hope it dosen't too. I rather like debates on hybrids, as I own one, but I just had a feeling that it would happen. After all, the title is "Hybrids vs. Non-Hybrids".

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Well, "versus" here is used to indicate a comparison between two things. Its use isn't limited to describing the relationship between two participants in a cage-match! :grin01:

KJUN said:

So, you ignore the mounding data that says guttata is more different from obsoleta that obsoleta is from the current definition of Pituophis? Not to sound like a butt, but if you ignore large chunks of data, then you CAN draw any conclusion you want. PLUS, what about the resurgence of the idea that All the rats, fox, pine, bull, and gophersnakes belong in the same genus? There is no doubt that obsoleta and guttata are NOT as closely related as morphology originally lead people to believe.

PLUS, there is mounding data to support the hypothesis that has been going around for at least 2 decades to my personal knowledge that the ratsnakes are a very paraphyletic genus! That makes your entire argument crumble (if in fact this is true as many taxonomists currently believe), but that is irrelevant. Pituophis and Elaphe - regardless of the name you use - are sister taxa. Why do you arbitrarily say genus-level hybrids are OK to group together without record-keeping, but tribe-level hybrids aren't

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Thank you! This is exactly the conversation I was hoping for when I started the "Why are hybrids evil" thread but it never happened there.

Would you mind providing citations for the data you refer to?

I'd give you rep points for this post if I could, because even though you're coming across as very aggressive, you're actually addressing the question I'm interested in far better than I've seen it any where else.

KJUN said:

This post helped how exactly how???? If you don't have anything to add new, don't try to START trouble, please.

I hope it doesn't. A premise was made. I'm asking for justification of the premise. I don't care if hybrids are good or bad. I don't like them. i believe the poster does. NONE OF THIS MATTERS IN THIS ARGUMENT.

I just want support of his premise. The poster seems to want the idea to catch on, so I'm giving the poster a chance to convince me his premise makes sense. This isn't an argument or even a debate (yet) - it is a request for knowledge and an explanation. It's an opportunity.

KJ

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I don't have a position on hybrids yet. I'm still trying to figure why it's such an issue and how I feel about it. KJun's post is the first that gives me anything approaching a reasonable argument agains corn/rat hybrids, for which I am deeply grateful.

Pat1313's comment is just the sort of thing that DOESN'T need to happen: it doesn't provide any useful information at all and assumes that we're trying to fight instead of exchanging information and ideas about an important issue in CB corn snake culture.

Roy Munson said:

Well, "versus" here is used to indicate a comparison between two things. Its use isn't limited to describing the relationship between two participants in a cage-match! :grin01:

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"ver·sus /ˈvɜrsəs, -səz/ Pronunciation Key - [vur-suhs, -suhz] Pronunciation Key - –preposition
1. against (used esp. to indicate an action brought by one party against another in a court of law, or to denote competing teams or players in a sports contest): Smith versus Jones; Army versus Navy.
2. as compared to or as one of two choices; in contrast with: traveling by plane versus traveling by train. Abbreviation: v., vs.

I guess we're both right . I was just thinking the first one because I'm more familiar with versus being used in that context :shrugs:.

batwrangler said:

I don't have a position on hybrids yet. I'm still trying to figure why it's such an issue and how I feel about it. KJun's post is the first that gives me anything approaching a reasonable argument agains corn/rat hybrids, for which I am deeply grateful.

Pat1313's comment is just the sort of thing that DOESN'T need to happen: it doesn't provide any useful information at all and assumes that we're trying to fight instead of exchanging information and ideas about an important issues in CB corn snake culture.

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I wasn't assuming you were fighting, as I saw some of the very informative and very interesting points that previous posters had , but I had a feeling there would be a "fight", and I guess I was wrong.

patm1313 said:

"ver·sus /ˈvɜrsəs, -səz/ Pronunciation Key - [vur-suhs, -suhz] Pronunciation Key - –preposition
1. against (used esp. to indicate an action brought by one party against another in a court of law, or to denote competing teams or players in a sports contest): Smith versus Jones; Army versus Navy.
2. as compared to or as one of two choices; in contrast with: traveling by plane versus traveling by train. Abbreviation: v., vs. :shrugs:.

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yep....regurge.:eek1:

Sorry but I had to say. :shrugs:

Now back to the good topic at hand.
I was trying to learn something.

patm1313 said:

I wasn't assuming you were fighting, as I saw some of the very informative and very interesting points that previous posters had , but I had a feeling there would be a "fight", and I guess I was wrong.

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Not only did you "guess wrong", you added a pointless comment and dilluted the worth of this thread. It's annoying. It wastes bandwidth and interferes with conversation. Please stop commenting unless you have actual, on-topic content to add.

batwrangler said:

Would you mind providing citations for the data you refer to?

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Start with Burbrink et all. 2007. It might have been 2006, but I'm pretty sure it was 2007. The paper is in my office at work. I don't keep much scientific literature at home.

I'm not being intentionally aggressive - I just do everything rather cut-and-dry when it comes to something that should be based on logic. People don't typically like conversations without all the "flowery" crap that, I believe, just confuses the logic and science behind a discussion. Call it a character flaw in me, but people rarely ask my opinion if they don't want to know what I REALLY think.....lol. I appreciate that a lot since I am either asocial or antisocial. (I haven't quite figured out which, but I like both options......lol)

AGAIN - I'm not trying to debate if hybrids are good or bad. I have my opinions, and you have yours. End of story. I'm offering up an opportunity for an explanation of why the proposal, with the boundaries that seem arbitrary to me, is a good one.

ON TOPIC: The reason nobody has really answered your post is because many of us have been through this on this forum and others. I now it sounds selfish, but I'm just tired of explaining it. Usually, because people seem to want a QUICK, EASY, and ALWAYS ACCURATE way to tell. That isn't possible. PLUS, since most corns in captivity are hybrids, pet owners that know little about WILD snakes accept the markers because "their snakes have them so the markers must be wrong!" It just gets disillusioning. It takes looking at lots of wild corns with a tough eye to pick it up. Like grading cotton - you can't explain in online in a 300 word post. I wish you could because hybrids would LIKELY be less popular at that point.

KJ

I just want to know how to tell the difference. I have a corn that looks quite a bit like my known creamsicle. I don't have any information on the parentage since he was given to me by someone who didn't want him any more. When I compare both my creamsicle and this snake to my other cornsnakes, I don't see a lot of differences. It would be good to know when he gets old enough to breed so I can label his babies correctly.

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If you don't know his parentage, then you will never know whether he's pure or hybrid. I've seen many discussions over the years and nobody has ever found a way of visually identifying a Corn hybrid, that applies to all Corn hybrids.

If it matters to you (as it seems to matter to quite a few of us), then maybe your best bet is to keep him as a pet and breed from a Corn of known parentage.

Ssthisto said:

I'm almost of the mind that we should say "From 2008, all cornsnake-like animals with no non-Pantherophis-genus heritage currently in captivity should be called Pantherophis familiaris (and given an appropriate new common name - North American Ratsnake?) unless both of their parents can be traced to wild-caught known-locality animals." That includes animals of emoryi or obsoleta heritage but NOT animals with Lampropeltis or Pituophis heritage - a Jungle or Turbo Corn still isn't a corn snake.

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Ever heard of Felis Domesticus? It was said that domestic house cats should be put under a single species name, and it was so. Let's use an example. I'm looking for a cat. I'll use my cat Bachi as an example. I want to buy my cat Bachi, so I put up a wanted ad. What do I say? She was, at some point a single species. In that time, I could have said "Wanted: Felis Leopardis (not real species) and there you go, six days later someone would answer my ad and I would have a nice little kitten. But now, they are all the same species. So now I say, "Wanted: Black spotted cat, speckled brown background with black stripe along tail and back, long wiskers, and white belly." There is no longer any difference. I think that the more specific we can get, the better. Genuses are there for a reason, so there is no point in having only one species for one genus. Hybrids should be put under a mixed category, such as Pantherophis Guttata-Emoryi, so how does that sound?

Ssthisto said:

Get rid of the "What if Ultra came from Grey Ratsnakes or Leucistic from Texas Rats or Stripe came from Everglades or Beeblebrox came from Mexican Night Snakes" stigma - if we're all breeding domesticated Ratsnakes it shouldn't matter too much;

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But people are not. We no longer list them as ratsnakes, so my mentality is not that people are breeding ratsnakes, as much as they are breeding corns.

Ssthisto said:

if we want pure corn snakes, then having animals that trace back to wild-caught locality animals should be reasonable too. Could be just me - if you're interested in keeping the animals for the colours and patterns in morph ratsnakes, does it matter whether they're pure guttattus as long as they're pure North American Ratsnake? If so, why?

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Sure, colors are dandy, but you have to notice something. The species have already changed. It's not like they all look the same. I see differences between Emoryi's and Corns. They all have different properties, so they need to be in different species.

WARNING: Definition Ahead.

spe·cies /ˈspiʃiz, -siz/ Pronunciation Key -[spee-sheez, -seez] noun, plural -cies, adjective
–noun 1. a class of individuals having some common characteristics or qualities; distinct sort or kind.

Had to put it in there .


Disclaimer: I'm saying what I feel, and it is only that, my oppinion. I'm sure plenty will disagree , but C'est la vie .

patm1313 said:

spe·cies /ˈspiʃiz, -siz/ Pronunciation Key -[spee-sheez, -seez] noun, plural -cies, adjective
–noun 1. a class of individuals having some common characteristics or qualities; distinct sort or kind.

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That IS a rather grqade school definition of species. Spend some time googling "Biological Species Concept" and "Ecological Species Concept" As a SMALL START a more valid definition of a species.

KJ