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House snake "self regulating"? Another not eating thread.

albertagirl

albertagirl

Sharan
Hi everyone! First of all, sorry about the long post. I'm just trying to include all the details.

From all my research, house snakes eat. Always. The only mention I could find was of males occasionally taking a break during mating season, though I have not been able to find any mention anywhere of when their mating season is. (Does anybody know?) My snake is currently at the size where she could be a good size male, or a small female, so short of taking her to a vet to be probed, I can't be sure she's a female, though that was what I was told at time of purchase.

So here are the details. Eve is a Cape African House Snake, hatched december 24, 2014, and is currently 250g and 3'3". I purchased her in July of 2015. She had always eaten everything I'd ever given her, until this January. The first time she refused food I just assumed it was because I had stressed her out a little bit right before trying to feed her, so I didn't think anything of it, but she's refused almost every meal ever since. I offer food once every 7 to 10 days, same thing as she's always eaten, but she only actually eats about once every 4 to 6 weeks. I'm not panicking since she hasn't actually lost any weight yet, but she should still be growing I think, and definitely is not. And I don't know about the whole "maybe it's a breeding season thing" since it's been 5 months now and she's still not eating. In every other way, her behavior and health appear to be the unchanged.

The weird thing is, she acts hungry. She definitely looks interested every single time I try to feed her. She comes right over to the mouse, and follows it around if I move it around, but she won't actually take it. And if I stop moving it around, she just loses all interest and completely ignores it. I feel like offering her live prey might do the trick, but I am really not in love with the idea of driving across town to get a live mouse every week.

I haven't tried other types of prey or scenting since she hasn't lost weight and does still *occasionally* take a meal, but I have tried leaving her in a small tub with the mouse overnight and tried leaving the mouse in her cage overnight.

I asked the breeder I got her from (who didn't actually produce her, but bought her from another breeder and then resold her) and they figured she's just done growing and is "regulating herself", but from what I've read, that's not something house snakes really do. Like I said, I'm not freaking out, but I think it's really weird and if this sounds totally wrong to you guys too, I do want to try to correct the situation if I can before she does start to lose weight.

Her temps were at 86F, which she's always liked better than warmer temps, but I've tried raising them a little bit to see if that helps. She's currently at 88F, and spends all of her time on her hot side the past few weeks. Her last two successful meals were March 1, and April 15.

I have read all the tricks to get new babies to eat, but not sure if I should bother with a snake who was consistently eating for so long and definitely knows what food is and what to do with it.

Any thoughts or advice is great. Or even if anyone has heard of house snakes fasting and thinks this is normal behavior, that would be good to hear too.
Thanks!
 
I'm on a phone call but just wanted to say that I saw this and will answer what I can once I've got a minute.
 
albertagirl said:
Hi everyone! First of all, sorry about the long post. I'm just trying to include all the details.

From all my research, house snakes eat. Always. The only mention I could find was of males occasionally taking a break during mating season, though I have not been able to find any mention anywhere of when their mating season is. (Does anybody know?) My snake is currently at the size where she could be a good size male, or a small female, so short of taking her to a vet to be probed, I can't be sure she's a female, though that was what I was told at time of purchase.

So here are the details. Eve is a Cape African House Snake, hatched december 24, 2014, and is currently 250g and 3'3". I purchased her in July of 2015. She had always eaten everything I'd ever given her, until this January. The first time she refused food I just assumed it was because I had stressed her out a little bit right before trying to feed her, so I didn't think anything of it, but she's refused almost every meal ever since. I offer food once every 7 to 10 days, same thing as she's always eaten, but she only actually eats about once every 4 to 6 weeks. I'm not panicking since she hasn't actually lost any weight yet, but she should still be growing I think, and definitely is not. And I don't know about the whole "maybe it's a breeding season thing" since it's been 5 months now and she's still not eating. In every other way, her behavior and health appear to be the unchanged.

The weird thing is, she acts hungry. She definitely looks interested every single time I try to feed her. She comes right over to the mouse, and follows it around if I move it around, but she won't actually take it. And if I stop moving it around, she just loses all interest and completely ignores it. I feel like offering her live prey might do the trick, but I am really not in love with the idea of driving across town to get a live mouse every week.

I haven't tried other types of prey or scenting since she hasn't lost weight and does still *occasionally* take a meal, but I have tried leaving her in a small tub with the mouse overnight and tried leaving the mouse in her cage overnight.

I asked the breeder I got her from (who didn't actually produce her, but bought her from another breeder and then resold her) and they figured she's just done growing and is "regulating herself", but from what I've read, that's not something house snakes really do. Like I said, I'm not freaking out, but I think it's really weird and if this sounds totally wrong to you guys too, I do want to try to correct the situation if I can before she does start to lose weight.

Her temps were at 86F, which she's always liked better than warmer temps, but I've tried raising them a little bit to see if that helps. She's currently at 88F, and spends all of her time on her hot side the past few weeks. Her last two successful meals were March 1, and April 15.

I have read all the tricks to get new babies to eat, but not sure if I should bother with a snake who was consistently eating for so long and definitely knows what food is and what to do with it.

Any thoughts or advice is great. Or even if anyone has heard of house snakes fasting and thinks this is normal behavior, that would be good to hear too.
Thanks!
Click to expand...

In my experience, house snakes have two speeds, eating machine and fasting. My adult pair, both of them, went on a very long semi fast very similar to what you are describing at around two years old, only eating once in awhile. After about 8 months, they started eating consistently again. Neither lost weight, though they didn't gain much during that time either, somewhat frustrating my plans on when to breed them. Although they were small still, I think they were possibly both feeling breeding urges.

The other notable thing about house snakes are their willingness to breed. Constantly. To the exclusion of all else.
So yeah, male especially or even if she's a female, she could be feeling some mating "season" urges. The bad thing with them is that they don't really have set seasons and will breed at any time. My male has settled into a breeding fast 2-3 times a year, usually for 1-3 months and generally once in the spring and once in the fall, but he can go on strike at any time, is in fact just starting a food strike right now.
Thankfully the female has settled into a vicious feeding machine that would eat every 3 days if I let her and only refuses sometimes while blue or later stages of being gravid, ever since the first time she was bred. She went on mini strikes fairly often before that. In short, as long as she's maintaining weight or losing very little and not showing any other signs of something amiss, I wouldn't worry just yet.
 
Tavia said:
In my experience, house snakes have two speeds, eating machine and fasting. My adult pair, both of them, went on a very long semi fast very similar to what you are describing at around two years old, only eating once in awhile. After about 8 months, they started eating consistently again. Neither lost weight, though they didn't gain much during that time either, somewhat frustrating my plans on when to breed them. Although they were small still, I think they were possibly both feeling breeding urges.

The other notable thing about house snakes are their willingness to breed. Constantly. To the exclusion of all else.
So yeah, male especially or even if she's a female, she could be feeling some mating "season" urges. The bad thing with them is that they don't really have set seasons and will breed at any time. My male has settled into a breeding fast 2-3 times a year, usually for 1-3 months and generally once in the spring and once in the fall, but he can go on strike at any time, is in fact just starting a food strike right now.
Thankfully the female has settled into a vicious feeding machine that would eat every 3 days if I let her and only refuses sometimes while blue or later stages of being gravid, ever since the first time she was bred. She went on mini strikes fairly often before that. In short, as long as she's maintaining weight or losing very little and not showing any other signs of something amiss, I wouldn't worry just yet.
Click to expand...

Well this is good to hear! I wonder why I couldn't find mention of this anywhere else? I do still feel like she's quite small though, I hope once she starts eating again that she will also grow a little more... again, assuming she is in fact a female. Thank you Tavia!!

As far as advice, should I just continue what I'm doing? Offer once a week or so, same prey and same size as always? Also, because I think it never hurts to see what is working for others, can I ask what temps you keep yours at?

Again, thank you for replying. I really appreciate it.
 
It's kind of funny. I'm so glad I weigh my snakes fairly consistently (about once a month or so). As everyone else is still growing, it makes her LOOK like she's really shrunk. If I had not known her weight, I would have definitely thought she'd lost weight. She doesn't look skinny, just tiny compared to everyone else now. It has definitely helped me stay more relaxed about the whole situation to be able to know for sure that she has, in fact, stayed at exactly the same weight.
 
My adult house snake went on an almost 2 year hunger strike. He lost around half of his body weight. NOW he eats everything I give him with the exception of during shed cycles. He's starting to look like a healthy snake again.
Glad to hear that yours isn't losing weight!!
 
So far my Clyde has only refused once and that was last month at 21 months old, but he will only eat in the dark now. He will no longer take the prey from the tongs and flees if I try to offer it that way. Funny little ducks they are!

I freaked at one refusal, though I put a brave face on it. I can only imagine how stressful the longer fasts are, but I may get my own turn at that. Best wishes with Eve and keep us posted.
 
daddio207 said:
My adult house snake went on an almost 2 year hunger strike. He lost around half of his body weight. NOW he eats everything I give him with the exception of during shed cycles. He's starting to look like a healthy snake again.
Glad to hear that yours isn't losing weight!!
Click to expand...

2 years and half his weight?!! I think by that point I would be way more stressed out! I would think she was dying. Was he around 2 when he started that too? I'm so relieved to hear he's doing well again, and to know they can still turn around at that point. Fingers crossed I don't have to experience it first hand.

DollysMom said:
So far my Clyde has only refused once and that was last month at 21 months old, but he will only eat in the dark now. He will no longer take the prey from the tongs and flees if I try to offer it that way. Funny little ducks they are!

I freaked at one refusal, though I put a brave face on it. I can only imagine how stressful the longer fasts are, but I may get my own turn at that. Best wishes with Eve and keep us posted.
Click to expand...

Eve did that first. She used to strike feed off the tongs, for like the first year or so. Then I had to just put it down and let her find it for a few months. She seemed to act more and more stressed by the mouse, and started taking kind of a long time to decide if she wanted to eat. Then stopped altogether.

Funny how in hindsight it was kind of a trend. But at the time it was just an interesting little side note. Hopefully Clyde doesn't decide to fast, but if he does, at least we have these stories to help us not feel like our snakes are dying! LOL :laugh:
 
DollysMom said:
Well said, albertagirl! There is comfort in numbers. I'm so glad you made this post. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Actually, me too. Thank you for encouraging me to do so DollysMom. :)
I figure if I couldn't find anything about fasting house snakes online, maybe others are looking too, and this thread might help more than just me in the end. I hope so!
 
Wish more people talked about the ins and outs of House snakes, LOL!
When I was first deciding to get a pair, I'd liked the looks of them for a few years, I read as much as I could get my hands on, which wasn't a great deal.
But a very consistent picture emerged from everything I read, easy husbandry, ridiculously easy to breed, to the point of being a potential downside, and very good eaters from the egg on. In short, basically the perfect "easy" breeding project to add in with my more complicated species ... Yeah, no other breeder admitted anywhere that babies are actually very often stubborn about getting eating for the first 2 to 4 plus months after hatching.
Wasn't until I'd flailed around with my first 3 clutches wondering what the heck I was doing so wrong, that a few breeders took the time to quietly tell me that what I was experiencing was more or less normal. I've now heard from a great many breeders all saying the same thing. I've had to mentally adjust to just accepting that about half of them will require force feeding for a few months before becoming established and that going nearly right to force feeding isn't some kind of failure on my part.

Just knowing that took them from the hardest species I've actually bred, to a challenge but not hair tearing species. I might not have gotten them had I had accurate info on them in the beginning but I feel like I'd have lost fewer hatchlings to starvation had I been informed.
 
Tavia said:
Wish more people talked about the ins and outs of House snakes, LOL!
When I was first deciding to get a pair, I'd liked the looks of them for a few years, I read as much as I could get my hands on, which wasn't a great deal.
But a very consistent picture emerged from everything I read, easy husbandry, ridiculously easy to breed, to the point of being a potential downside, and very good eaters from the egg on. In short, basically the perfect "easy" breeding project to add in with my more complicated species ... Yeah, no other breeder admitted anywhere that babies are actually very often stubborn about getting eating for the first 2 to 4 plus months after hatching.
Wasn't until I'd flailed around with my first 3 clutches wondering what the heck I was doing so wrong, that a few breeders took the time to quietly tell me that what I was experiencing was more or less normal. I've now heard from a great many breeders all saying the same thing. I've had to mentally adjust to just accepting that about half of them will require force feeding for a few months before becoming established and that going nearly right to force feeding isn't some kind of failure on my part.

Just knowing that took them from the hardest species I've actually bred, to a challenge but not hair tearing species. I might not have gotten them had I had accurate info on them in the beginning but I feel like I'd have lost fewer hatchlings to starvation had I been informed.
Click to expand...


Wow, and how on earth do you force feed such a TINY hatchling?! Aren't they quite a bit smaller than corns at first? I should maybe rename this thread to "things you didn't know about house snakes"!

I do just want to clarify my final question though, about whether I should continue offering food at the same size and frequency? Or should I start offering her something smaller? Do their stomachs shrink? And is offering weekly too often when she's only eating monthly at best? I don't know if that does more harm than good. Or if it does any harm at all?
 
I usually move to offering every 10-14 days with my snakes that are on strike, waste less mice and sometimes it might be less stressful on the snake.

I've not noticed a big difference with the house snakes in particular responding to smaller prey but it does often work well with several of the other species to offer a smaller than normal meal while they are on strike. Sometimes they will take the smaller item. It's certainly worth a try.
 
Tavia said:
I usually move to offering every 10-14 days with my snakes that are on strike, waste less mice and sometimes it might be less stressful on the snake.

I've not noticed a big difference with the house snakes in particular responding to smaller prey but it does often work well with several of the other species to offer a smaller than normal meal while they are on strike. Sometimes they will take the smaller item. It's certainly worth a try.
Click to expand...

Beautiful. Thank you so much. This has been extremely helpful!
 
Daddio207 and Tavia... when your house snakes were fasting, did they still act hungry? That's what confuses me the most. Eve still acts hungry, if I go into her cage while she's awake she acts like she's ready to eat anything that moves... following any movement closely and looking ready to strike, but not in a defensive way at all. Simply in a "I wanna eat that" way. She just won't actually take the prey item, but looks like she really wants to. I went in to change her water tonight, absolutely no mouse smell involved, and she looked like she was ready to attempt to eat my hand. Yet when I offer her food, she looks at it exactly the same way, and will come over and tongue flick the mouse, and follow it around if I do the "dangle dance", but won't actually eat it. I'm just wondering if that's normal? To show complete interest in food while fasting?
Thanks.
 
I know you didn't ask me, but no one else has weighed in yet. My experience is that behavior is curiosity. Clyde is the most inquisitive little snake I've ever met. He stretches out to flick my nose and even my eyelashes. It's extremely endearing, btw. He often pops up to follow movements when no food is involved.

Right now if I dangle a mouse he flees, but if I quietly lay it on the plastic lid of his humid hide and leave him totally alone in the dark, he's eaten within three hours. I absolutely do not handle or otherwise disturb on feeding day now. I'm not saying it will work for you but if you haven't done it, it is worth a try. At least Eve is interested in the mouse! Obviously Clyde is too but only on his terms.

Best wishes.
 
DollysMom said:
I know you didn't ask me, but no one else has weighed in yet. My experience is that behavior is curiosity. Clyde is the most inquisitive little snake I've ever met. He stretches out to flick my nose and even my eyelashes. It's extremely endearing, btw. He often pops up to follow movements when no food is involved.

Right now if I dangle a mouse he flees, but if I quietly lay it on the plastic lid of his humid hide and leave him totally alone in the dark, he's eaten within three hours. I absolutely do not handle or otherwise disturb on feeding day now. I'm not saying it will work for you but if you haven't done it, it is worth a try. At least Eve is interested in the mouse! Obviously Clyde is too but only on his terms.

Best wishes.
Click to expand...

Thanks DollysMom. I appreciate any feedback! I feel like sharp-eyed, quick, tense movements isn't her normal curiosity behavior. When curious she's more relaxed and follows movement with her eyes and head without actually coming over and bringing enough body over to allow for a strike. I could be wrong, my experience is limited, but I try to watch body language carefully to try to learn and understand the behaviors of all my animals. I know I'm getting better, but still so much I don't know! Snakes are definitely different than dogs and horses! But in the past, any time there's been a refusal of food, it's never been "I'm totally interested but won't eat". It's always been "I'm ignoring you or actively avoiding you, I don't want that".

To be honest, I've tried not handling her at all, just not handling on feeding day, handling every day. I've tried leaving the mouse in her cage overnight, leaving her in a feeding tub with the mouse overnight, feeding in tub, feeding in cage, dangle-dancing, holding still, presenting nose first, butt first, smaller sizes. I just don't know what else I could do differently aside from trying a different type of prey. I may pick up some ASF's next time I get feeders, just to see if she finds that more tempting.
 
Can't say I've noticed it with the AHS in particular but some of my other snakes, the males in particular, do that when breeding season fasting, especially the corns. Act very interested for a bit before turning away or sometimes they will even grab the mouse and I think they are going to eat it, only to come back later and find it abandoned uneaten. I think it's because they are actually hungry but their instincts are also telling them that they need to be able to move, find a mate, breed, and not be heavy with a meal. That's why sometimes a much smaller prey item works, I think. Less incapacitating for them. But even that doesn't always work.
 
Tavia said:
Can't say I've noticed it with the AHS in particular but some of my other snakes, the males in particular, do that when breeding season fasting, especially the corns. Act very interested for a bit before turning away or sometimes they will even grab the mouse and I think they are going to eat it, only to come back later and find it abandoned uneaten. I think it's because they are actually hungry but their instincts are also telling them that they need to be able to move, find a mate, breed, and not be heavy with a meal. That's why sometimes a much smaller prey item works, I think. Less incapacitating for them. But even that doesn't always work.
Click to expand...

Oh that makes sense. I love a logical explanation for things! Whether that's what she's doing or not, it makes me feel more at ease to have some explanation other than "just because" or "well, Sharan, it's because you're doing it wrong". LOL
Thanks for visiting this issue again with me. I'll definitely let you all know when she starts eating again.
 
I'm sorry I couldn't help, and I'm glad Tavia could. Her explanation of why they refuse food during mating season(s) is exactly what I have believed. It all makes perfect sense.

One thing I hope is that in explaining what has worked for me, you found no criticism of your feeding tactics, most of which I didn't know. No criticism was intended, that's for sure. Still I fear I may have stepped in it so I'm definitely sorry for adding to your stress in any way.

Since Clyde is on the path Eve followed, I may soon get my turn with longer fasts. Even one refusal bothered me and stressed me out, though viewed logically it is no big deal. I can imagine, extrapolated from my brief experience, how stressful it feels when they stop eating for longer periods. I hope Eve starts eating again soon.
 
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