Testing for Stargazing

airenlow said:

:roflmao:.

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Repped!!!!!

I also am an engineer that has nothing to do with corn snakes. I just write. It's hard to write and show emotion. If I have offended you I appologize. I just wrote one what I have read. Have I been on here since the beginning no.

Do I have time to read every post no. I just brought up testing for SG. The tile was not I can't believe Tara or others are not testing.

I apologized numerous times

Let's move on and try to discuss the topic.

Then I whole heartedly agree!

Although gazer will most likely never be eradicated from all stock, we can sure try.
My lead breeding sunkisseds are from tested stock (purchased from Chuck and Connie) with the exception of my dark sunkisseds.
I'm more concerned with propagating these guys before the male dies (as he's older and in poor health) before testing for gazer just so the gene/genes still exist to work on. As far as I know, there are very few dark sunkisseds out there. One of them was a gift from Don Soderberg, since I had a female and no male and he had a male and no female.
Once I do obtain enough babies from these guys, then I'll feel comfortable enough to start testing. This won't affect anyone else anyway, as I won't be selling any for a long time. Currently, it's even unknown if they even *are* sunkisseds.

Well that's cool. Never heard of them. I would love to see the dark morph. I feel the same way as you do Tara.

This is what I was after. Their ate dome original Kathy Love SK running around from founding stock that need to be preserved as well. Then before marketing test and move forward. I would love to hear more about the dark ones you spoke of. Could you pm me with an email so we don't get this off on another story?

Nanci said:

Walter, do you plan on testing parents of any SK combos you have already produced, so you would be able to say, with as much certainty as possible, that the parents were gazer-free? Specifically the parents of the SK Blood girl I have at my house?

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Nanci,
YES.....I still have some F1 normal project parents to SK combos I have produce, and the parents to that girl is still here. This is the thing though, seeing I will have only one breedable HOMO gazer female, it's going to take a little while to get my males proven, at least until the 2011 girl is big enough, then it will move ahead a little quicker. Another good thing is, I don't have ALOT of males. Most of my holdback were females.

I do plan to breed as many females as I can with the HOMO gazer male though. I will say this, I WILL NOT be breeding any of my SK any further starting next season except for testing........well, let me back up a little bit.

I guess I should say, the ONLY Sunkissed animals that will/might be available will be from new projects started with my PROVEN GAZER FREE adults that I recently aquired, any others will only be bred for testing.

Until I know who is or who isn't, they will not be bred any further.
Another good thing is, quite a few of my F2 combos will be breedable next season, such as SK Miami, SK Hypo Miami, Honey Bloodred.

Even though I still have their parents, these female's first breedings will be to the HOMO gazer male........Reason???
It will take me longer to prove BOTH parents to each (due to what I mentioned above) than it will take to prove 10 females. I'll know about these girls first round either YES carriers or NO carriers for sure.
If NO, then I can move forward on projects with these girls while waiting to prove their parents. If YES, than it's back to the drawing board using my proven gazer free Sunkisseds.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

That's what I am going for with the recent SK project I got. I can test all my females quick. Males require a large number of females to test. Unless they are from the same breedings then you could breed the founding stock of your project and kill mutiple birds with one stone.

nmoore601 said:

That's what I am going for with the recent SK project I got. I can test all my females quick. Males require a large number of females to test. Unless they are from the same breedings then you could breed the founding stock of your project and kill mutiple birds with one stone.

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Yeah, I know what you mean Nick. Unfortunatly for me, the actual Sunkissed's I used to start my projects are no longer here, so I can't test them, that's why I have to resort to testing F1 & F2 animals.

One of the originals was a loaner from Don Soderberg and a couple others were some that I purchased as hatchlings in Daytona quite a few years back.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

I know Don has sent quite a few of his sunkisseds, if not all of them, up to Chuck and Connie for testing and some have proven positive and most not.

I've also obtained a few sunkisseds from Daytona - from random breeders - that will need to be tested eventually but I'm not in any hurry to breed them (other than the darks).

One thing I can say is that IT IS good to hear who is and is not testing their stock.

nmoore601 said:

Who tests for Stargazer? Why do people only assume since their SK projects show no SG then they are free. Has any one every seen the little guys doing the SG in person it's so sad. There are some really good reads about SG. I will post some links showing what the odds of producing a SG from projects, how long it would take to surface. I know most people will not waste a productive year of SK to test for SG. Once the SG starts popping up in various people's collections. There are going be some very unhappy folks. I have tested all my females. Waiting on the results. If I have SG in my lines I will raise enough females to start testing males. All of my SK sold this year will be gazer free lines. Also the ACR will be just about the only way to make sure you are getting gazer free corns. I just wanted to throw this out there. I know some
will be upset, mad, and some agreeing. My good friend Joe Pierce is really up to snuff on testing for SG. Connie and Charles also have some awesome reads about there findings. I don't have all the answers but their is a ton of info out there on this disease. I hope I don't get the spear for bringing this up.

Just seems as much as this forum cares about corns, there would be a lot more testing going on and a lot less assuming everything is good with SK.


SK are a favorite of mine. I have tons of projects containing SK. Like I said before the ones sold from us will be gazer free. I have an adult gazer male male I aquired free, a het gazer male on loan, and some yearling gazers for more testing. So if any one wants homo gazers for testing I am offering my 2012 stock free of charge to anyone interested in getting gazers to test their SK stock.

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I disagree with the statement I put in bold. While I do like and use the ACR, there is not a 100% guarantee that the information found there is 100% accurate. The information is only as truthful as the person supplying that information, and there are breeders out there that do not have the most stellar of reputations in regards to the genetics of the snakes they've sold being what they said they were. And if the genetics are correct, as in homozygous snakes, quite a few males have not been producing fertile clutches and it has been rumored that surgical sterilization might be the reason why. I trust Connie and Chuck, but I think you might need to do a little more research on the BOI.

To Quote tara:
For the record gazer is tested by only a few people and I would not put that number over 20 in U.S For the hundreds of sunkissed and sunkissed morphs produced every year... There is a very good chance that my serpenco line of sunkissed lavenders could be carriers and in fact will have to obtain gazers at some point just for the freaken respect of sunkissed breedings!

I have SK's from two sources: Walter & PJ. I plan on testing my SK's from Walter for SG once they're big enough to breed, & the ones I have from PJ come from Chuck & Connie's lines, so they've already been tested.

I also got the impression that the basis of this thread implied that very few breeders actually test their SK's. I know a number of people who work with SK's who have or will be testing their SK lines.

I think for the most part, many of the breeders here are very trustworthy, & the number of those that are not, is much smaller. I've seen pretty good self policing in the herp community, & either calling out irresponsible breeders, or making others aware of irresponsible breeders.

Many of us know who we can trust, & who we can't. We offer assistance to those who are new to the community & might not know who to avoid, & which breeders are highly recommended.

I like the topic of testing SK lines for SG, but to say that "most breeders" don't bother to test, is definitely incorrect.

Tara80 said:

I know Don has sent quite a few of his sunkisseds, if not all of them, up to Chuck and Connie for testing and some have proven positive and most not.

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That is good to know. I used Don's loaner Sunkissed to start 3 of my projects, but unfortunatly I didn't get a ID with it so there is no way to know for sure which one it was :awcrap:

I just have to test all my breeders that came from that particular SK.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

I _do_ believe registration and documentation of gazer-free individuals at ACR is important. Even for those of you who don't register all your stock, it would be helpful to register the SKs. Obviously, as Susan says, some individuals are rumored to not represent snakes truthfully (not speaking of the stargazer gene specifically) but at least it would be a starting point.

At this point the gazer gene is most likely not confined to sunkissed lines. Sunkissed has been mixed with so many morphs that the gazer gene really could be anywhere. I know when Chuck and Connie started testing that they felt that snakes (not from sunkissed lines) hatched prior to a certain year (might have been 2004?) were probably unaffected but anything after, unless you knew the snakes ancestry, was probably fair game. That is probably more true today since the gene has been spread more and more. And dont forget that the gazers came from Okeeteees so it is possible that some Okeetees are carriers and spreading the gene.

I definitely think that starting to test sunkisseds is a positive beginning but it is definitely not the end. The gazer gene will remain dormant and hidden for a long time.

Chuck has posted how many hatchlings you need to hatch to say that a snake is >98 or 99% gazer free depending on whether one parent is homo or het gazer. The numbers were not as high as you might expect so even het gazers are worth using. Someone who knows statistics could probably easily figure it out.

Reptilekyle64 said:

To Quote tara:
For the record gazer is tested by only a few people and I would not put that number over 20 in U.S For the hundreds of sunkissed and sunkissed morphs produced every year...

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I highly doubt that. There are a good number in this thread alone. I would put the number a fair bit higher than 20. I can count 4 in my area of NC alone, and that's a tiny area. Yes, there is a large number being produced, but only 20 testers in entire US? Not likely.

Susan, I agree. The ACR is only as good as the honesty used to enter data. It is however, a fairly decent reference point. People do need to register the stock somewhere and being able to trace SK lines is handy.

Yeah now we are getting into some good stuff. I love all the opinions and the real number of who is testing. Their are a ton of garage breeders pumping these thongs out meaning SK untested. I was just saying there should be a group where you are a trusted member to make sure people who say they are testing are testing.

Susan as far as ACR one of the SG males I use to test is a registered SG. He pedigree shows he originated from kathy love stock and is in fact a SG. That's where I was going with that.

I think if a group can be created like the BOI so folks know who they are buying snakes from then there could easily be a group with proof they have tested and are actually selling gazer free SK. Anything can be falsified look the did it for Obama.

If you are breeding a gazer to test a snake you need 7 eggs to show that the snake being tested has a >99% chance of not carrying the gene. If you are using a het gazer you need 17 eggs to have the >99% chance of being gazer free. Of course you will never reach the 100% definite het gazer free point and there will always be the breedings that defy the odds.

The year in which sunkisseds were started to be bred to other lines was 1999. I don't know how many morphs it was bred into or when but it all started in 99.

JoannaD said:

Chuck has posted how many hatchlings you need to hatch to say that a snake is >98 or 99% gazer free depending on whether one parent is homo or het gazer. The numbers were not as high as you might expect so even het gazers are worth using. Someone who knows statistics could probably easily figure it out.

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Here is a list that Joe Pierce got from a breeder over the pond. I believe this is pretty much the same as what Chuck came up with.


Number of eggs needed.......

Here a list for people who test for Stargazer.
If you breed with:

het Stargazer X Unknown and you don't get any Homo Stargazer, than the chance that the corn is free from Stargazer is by

1 egg 25%
2 eggs 43.75%
3 eggs 57,81%
4 eggs 68.36%
5 eggs 76.30%
6 eggs 80.20%
7 eggs 86.65%
8 eggs 89.99%
9 eggs 92.49%
10 eggs 94.37%
11 eggs 95.77%
12 eggs 96.83%
13 eggs 97.62%
14 eggs 98.22%
15 eggs 98.66%
16 eggs 98.99%
17 eggs 99.24%
18 eggs 99.43%
19 eggs 99.57%
20 eggs 99.68%

And if you breed with Homo Stargazer X Unknown

1 egg 50%
2 eggs 50%
3 eggs 62.50%
4 eggs 75%
5 eggs 84.37%
6 eggs 90.62%
7 eggs 94.53%
8 eggs 96.87%
9 eggs 98.24%
10 eggs 99.02%
11 eggs 99.46%
12 eggs 99.70%
13 eggs 99.84%
14 eggs 99.91%
15 eggs 99.95%
16 eggs 99.97%
17 eggs 99.98%
18 eggs 99.99%

I hope that you will see that test for 100% sure free from Stargazer isn't possible, but like you see we can come very close.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

How much does it cost to gentically test? I know you test out morphs by breeding but I wouldn't want to test out stargazing and create more possibly! How do you test them?

Walter the numbers for the het gazer crossing look right but they are not right for the homo gazer according to what I understand from Chuck. According to him with a homo gazer at 7 eggs the per cent is 99.2187 and with 6 eggs it is 98.4375.

Again, if I understand the formula from Chuck correctly this is how it goes.

With a gazer there is a 0.5 chance the egg gets the gazer gene. So 100(0.5^x) , where x is the number of eggs you have, gives you the percent chance that you are getting a false negative result, i.e that your snake fooled the odds and really is carrying the gene. if you then subtract that number from 100 it gives the % that your snake does not carry the gene.

So 0.5^6 X 100 = 1.5625, 100-1.5625=98.4375 or 98.4375% the snake does not carry the gene.

With 7 eggs the equation is 0.5^7=0.7813, 100-.7813=99.2187 or 99.2187% the snake is free of the gazer gene.

With a het gazer the 0.5 changes to 0.75 because 0.75 times the snake will not get the gazer gene.

With that my brain is fried and I need to go clean the kitchen! :awcrap: