Taken a turn for the worst. I need help/advice..

Not yet Mike, I still have to CONFIRM or UNCONFIRM (is that a word) everything that has been said for my and others peace of mind.

DeepDiver said:

there is a half-hearted apology from elle to toyah... yet i doubt we'll see one on RFUK.

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I don't think you have any right to declare it was half hearted. I know what I meant when I wrote it, and when I repeatedly appologised to Toyah over the phone.

Ive been following this thread from the start, keeping my mouth shut and just waiting for some sort of evidence or proof of a virus... Seems loads of people are hurt emotionaly and that is a shame... I feel sorry for the loss of beloved pets, and also for people getting ill from stress and from fingers being pointed... But i also seem to feel there are alot of excuses being made about itemised billing and stuff not coming in the mail... Could a receipt not be demanded in person at the vets, as everything is recorded?

Also, Tula Montage, will you be breeding any Snakes this coming season, or are you going to wait for results first?

I must admit though, aside from the personal onslaughts and bad friends this thread appears to have made, I have learned a great deal about quarintine, and have stepped up my game alot, this has really opened my eyes...

Sorry Elle, but how could a vet possibly not test for a virus that they suspect is present, after wanting reptile shows and trading to be suspended until the results of their tests? Why were there lesions in Windsor's brain if it was indeed a simple RI?
Unless you can prove there is no virus in your collection, how will you be able to sell your hatchlings if you do breed?

I have phoned both vet practices today to get someone, anyone to speak to me! I just have to wait for a call back now.

Janine, I do not have the answers to your questions... I don't know why they wouldn't do a viral panel if they were telling me at the time they were very concerned that it could be viral! I don't know why there were legions on his brain... I'm not qualified to answer that although it says they were extremely minor.

I may or may not be able to prove there is no virus in my collection... I will not be breeding or even thinking about selling hatchlings if I cannot disprove it. I honestly don't care if I breed or not... I don't need to breed to afford to stay in the hobby. Sure it would be nice to have a hobby that pays for its'self, but I'm not devistated at the fact I may have no hatchlings this year.

And if I do disprove there is a virus, I have plenty of outlets for hatchlings that are perfectly aware of this whole senario. I don't want to breed for money... I want to provide sound hatchlings at affordable prices to people who are just getting into the hobby. Everyone should have a lavender corn snake as their first herp LOL

I spoke to my herp vet and have requested that he sends out the autopsy report in its entirety again, Noir's lab work, itemised reciepts and a viral panel. He said there was no viral report, but they had tested for paramyxo and IBD and both were negative. It was a very quick unsatisfying conversation when I questioned him about the viral panel... I will be going down to the surgery after christmas to have this all sorted out. If he has not sent out everything I have asked for today before 3pm then I will not recieve anything until after christmas.

I would highly recommend that you ask the vet what lab had performed the viral test and ask for their phone number so you can talk directly to the lab or a vet at the lab. There have been some cases of the lab itself goofing things up, so if that is the case, you will want to hear it directly from them and not second-hand so you know exactly who's at fault. It's not unheard of for a vet to say something to a persistent client just to shut them up. Trust me on that one.

Perhaps this is the case Susan. I was utterly distraught everytime I was at that clinic, so its very possible he said some things just to appease me... But I was in every one of Lynns appointments, and they expressed extreme corncern that it was viral... They wouldn't have put Shug into critical care that day when his symptoms were minimal if that wasn't the case.

The Lab name is written on the report, and they are based in Norfolk England. I have just tried to phone and theres no answer to I will try again later. I have a code that refers to Windsor so that should make things easier.

I can start to type up the initial autopsy report this afternoon since theres so many questions being fired at me in every direction, and I simply cannot answer them... It doesn't say much though.

Ok heres the first page of the report.

Hystopathology report

Histological findings:

Lungs - There is sever and diffuse congestion. The subepethelial tissue surrounding the smooth muscle septa are infiltrated by a small number of lymphocytes, heterophils and fewer plasma cells. The interstitium of a few faveoli are infiltrated by a few heterophils and monouclear cells. Within the lumen of a few alveoli there is a small amount of proteinaceous fluid.

Liver - A moderate number of the hepatocytes are expanded by intracytoplasmic, large, clear and round vacuoies (lipid)

Intestine/kidneys - There are no significant findings.

COMMENTS - The lesions present in this case were very mild. There was evidence of a mild pneumonia but there was no evidence of proliferation of the epithelium lining the alveoli and inta-alveoli cellular exudate as it is expected to be seen with paramyxovirus infection. However, we cannot rule out this possibility at this point and screening of the sera of the other snakes present in this collection is recommended. Additional results for histopathology of the brain and bacterial cultures will follow as soon as possible. There was no evidence of viral inclusions in the sections examined thus far.

CONTINUED

Brain - There are rare heterophils present and presence of a few small lymphocytes around the blood vessels. The lesions were minimal in the brain of this snake but could be suggestive of mild inflamation. Perivascular cuffing can be seen in paramyxovirus infection. There was no convincing evidence of inclusion bodies however further investigation is recommended.

And that really is all I have to go on... Can you guys perhaps see why it is very frustrating at the moment? And perhaps why I simply cannot answer your questions in entirety... But it really does look like there is no virus present.

So that sounds like a bacterial pneumonia, not paramyxovirus, but blood test your other snakes just in case.

Liver biopsies may also be needed for the rest of the collection, from what I've read. To be honest the more I've read about paramyxovirus in snakes, the more chilling the whole thing is. An absolute nightmare, Elle.

Tula_Montage said:

There was no convincing evidence of inclusion bodies however further investigation is recommended.

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That's sort of good to hear (though I'd prefer to see no evidence of inclusion bodies to unconvincing evidence of inclusion bodies) - I assume the viral testing was the further investigation.

It'll be good to finally see a copy of the negative viral results once you get them. Weird that the vet didn't tell you about them until mid December though!

When you get all the copies through from the vets let me know and I will scan them for you - or if you'd like, get him to send them directly to my fax number and I will scan them and send them. Quicker than waiting for the post, especially at this time of year.

Thanks Toyah, when I have everything back and have looked over it myself ill make copies and post it to you if thats ok.

It is all a bit of a nightmare. I have spent hundreds of pounds, and lost so much money through pending sales. I know one or two people were annoyed at the fact this whole ordeal caused them to lose business, but so did I. And I have ruined any reputation I may have had before my first breeding season. Thats ok... It was worth it. People are far more aware of the importance of hygiene and quarantine. In fact, I saw someone on a UK forum asking how much autopsys costs as they had lost a non feeder. They wanted to make sure it was nothing more sinister. It probably isn't but it's fabulous that people are making the effort to correctly diagnose cause of death in snakes. There are so many illness and diseases in reptiles, and it's stupidly easy to spread it around.

Reptiles are indeed a disposable pet... something I have been very quilty of. Buying something and selling it on for something more expensive for selfish reasons. We all do it... The classifieds are LOADED with "need room for other reptiles" or "selling to finance royal/boa morphs". I know I will not be fooled into that game anymore. I have a small yet diverse group of healthy, well loved snakes, and I intend to keep it that way.

Windsor was a beautiful royal, who I shall never forget. Working with him and watching him gain weight and shed etc was a wonderful experience. I wish he was still here, but due to my own neglagence on some parts he is not. Perhaps (if there is a next time) I will act very differently towards any illness presented in my animals.

i have been reading this with interest. im afraid we dont ALL do it. when mine come into my home it becomes thier home too. i could never think of selling mine on im afraid.

Tula_Montage said:

Windsor was a beautiful royal, who I shall never forget. Working with him and watching him gain weight and shed etc was a wonderful experience. I wish he was still here, but due to my own neglagence on some parts he is not. Perhaps (if there is a next time) I will act very differently towards any illness presented in my animals.

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That will come with experience, you are reletively new to snakes, if i remember correctly and you'll learn as you go along

I have been keeping snakes shy of 2 years now, and I don't pretend to know it all. We all make mistakes, at everything we do. And this situation was just another of life's hard lessons. I know this will make me a more concious keeper for sure... perhaps not a better one, but certainly more aware of the risks involved when working with large amounts of animals in a small space.

It's strange how I seem to be able to keep the weird species alive and yet I have had 3 deaths since I started keeping snakes... 2 corns and 1 royal. Both baby corns had major feeding/internal issues and we are all well aware with what happened to Windsor.

Tula_Montage said:

I have been keeping snakes shy of 2 years now, and I don't pretend to know it all. We all make mistakes, at everything we do. And this situation was just another of life's hard lessons. I know this will make me a more concious keeper for sure... perhaps not a better one, but certainly more aware of the risks involved when working with large amounts of animals in a small space.

It's strange how I seem to be able to keep the weird species alive and yet I have had 3 deaths since I started keeping snakes... 2 corns and 1 royal. Both baby corns had major feeding/internal issues and we are all well aware with what happened to Windsor.

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see im the other way, ive kept for 18years and started out reletivly early with the rare stuff, funnily enough,got bored of that and fell in love with corns:rofl: yup, not normal i know, but keeping rare stuff isn't what make me tick anymore, i still see rarer stuff about but it doesn't make my heart go, like a really nice corn

You'll get there in time

See I'm the other way. Kept things 30-20 yrs ago.
Stopped for a while.
Started again.
They all make my heart miss-a-beat.
I can't really choose what floats my boat, they're all cool as individuals.
If there were lots in one place,obviously there are some I would go to first, especially if I'd never seen one in captivity.
Thats me... bought one of them and one of them and two of them.....LOL
Noticed the room is running out...
Now it's what will go with what....LOL..
MIKE

captaincaveman said:

see im the other way, ive kept for 18years and started out reletivly early with the rare stuff, funnily enough,got bored of that and fell in love with corns:rofl: yup, not normal i know, but keeping rare stuff isn't what make me tick anymore, i still see rarer stuff about but it doesn't make my heart go, like a really nice corn

You'll get there in time

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i agree. corns are my favorite, along with the royals,but corns were my first love, and am still aquiring them. and to be honest, although i like the stripes etc, i love the normals and aneries, and snows. cant beat them for variation.

Gotta love lab reports! They never can say that it ISN'T something, or even that is IS something. They always have to cover their behinds with remarks like:

"However, we cannot rule out this possibility at this point and screening of the sera of the other snakes present in this collection is recommended."

And

"There was no convincing evidence of inclusion bodies however further investigation is recommended."