Ugh, she regurged again*

*Using "again" lightly since most people agreed that the first regurge (Sept 8) was just poorly digested poop, as it took place a week after feeding.

If anyone has advice/input/corrections to what I'm doing, let me know!

SO: Pancake has problems again. She's a little over 2 years old now and had no problems digesting hoppers before this. She had issues back in August/September with chronic bloating and the aforementioned maybe-regurge. Vet-prescribed antibiotics and baby gas drops were given for the bloat and that went away. Her stool samples tested negative for anything lethal and the vet concluded that it was just an overgrowth of digestive bacteria.

From Sept 14 onward I went through regurge protocol, feeding her 1/4 the usual amount once a week for the first 3 weeks, then 1/2 for the next 3 weeks. She took a week off to shed, then started on headless weanlings on Nov 2.

The past several feedings went like this:

Nov 11 - successfully ate headless weanling
Nov 19 - refused headless weanling
Nov 21 - successfully ate 2 weanling heads
Nov 30 - refused headless weanling (pooped on it instead!)
Dec 2 - successfully ate a whole hopper
Dec 4 - regurged several minutes before midnight

I have noticed that every time she refused food, she would poop shortly afterwards, so that may be related to her not eating. I have also read that snakes may go off feed in the winter due to low temperatures--could that have been the case? The hopper I fed her was roughly the same size as a headless weanling, so I figured she would accept it whole, but alas. Also, the bloating is back!

Otherwise, she appears alert and responsive, though a bit lethargic due to the weather (hopefully). Her weight has stayed consistent and I've had no trouble maintaining temperatures in her viv.

She is seeing the vet on Monday evening (they were booked 'til then). I asked if they did lab tests on regurged food, but they don't. For now, I'll avoid handling her and she won't be fed again until at least Dec 13. I hope I'm doing things right, but feel free to throw in your two cents!

The temperatures shouldn't be allowed to *get* lower in the winter, that is part of properly setting up their enclosure. Measure your temps, ideally with an IR thermometer, but you have to know what your gradient is before you can determine if it needs changing. It is highly likely that this is environmental and a vet can't do anything. You have 3 feedings without a regurge, so I see no reason to suspect a pathogen, the temps are probably just off. There's no reason a young snake should have a bowel movement 9 days after a meal if temps are correct.

I am going to let the pro's say yes or no on this, I am not sure if this is the right way to go with corns, but you may want to bump up the temps 3-4 degrees, give her a bigger heat gradient.. In lizards it helps to stimulate their immune system if you still keep the cool end on 73 but a little hotter on the hot end to aid the digestion maybe? Again, that is what I'd do for a lizard that has digestion issues... I don't know if this is applicable on a snake however.. or you might just have let it drop too low so you have to just let it be on normal..

Okay, this is weird. I could have sworn I posted a reply here to Chip's input, but I don't see it!? I was wondering why there was no response afterwards!

@Chip: I was under the impression that only the areas above the mats were what mattered? The thermostats were already at 80/90 and substrate surface temps were 5 - 7 below that. I guess I'll have to bring back the heat lamp (on a thermostat) to even things out. I also forgot to mention that she had large poops 3 - 4 days after eating and the 9-day poops were really small (which is normal, right???).

@Ravenessa: I suppose I'll be nudging the temps up a bit. They have been regular all weekend so far. I'll have to be more observant from now on.

Thanks for the input, you two! I ended up cancelling the vet appointment so I wouldn't have to waste $50 to be told the same things or nothing.

As I said wait until they say yes or no to my thought.. I just started with snakes this is what would be done for lizards... the heat tend to stimulate the stomach juices, NOT sure that is applicable to snakes.. just a disclaimer!

Neekko said:

Okay, this is weird. I could have sworn I posted a reply here to Chip's input, but I don't see it!? I was wondering why there was no response afterwards!

@Chip: I was under the impression that only the areas above the mats were what mattered? The thermostats were already at 80/90 and substrate surface temps were 5 - 7 below that. I guess I'll have to bring back the heat lamp (on a thermostat) to even things out. I also forgot to mention that she had large poops 3 - 4 days after eating and the 9-day poops were really small (which is normal, right???).

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I'm not 100% clear on what is being asked. On my feeding schedule, after 9 days, any defecation would presumably be the next meal. And "The thermostats were already at 80/90," is confusing. That's a huge swing. Surely your 'stat will set to a degree, and not increments of ten? I'd endeavor to get accurate temperature readings, and adjust as needed. I'd *guess* the enclosure is too cool, but I base that only on the regurge and slow digestion. An accurate thermometer will give you a reading that will answer what to do.

Chip said:

I'm not 100% clear on what is being asked. On my feeding schedule, after 9 days, any defecation would presumably be the next meal. And "The thermostats were already at 80/90," is confusing. That's a huge swing. Surely your 'stat will set to a degree, and not increments of ten? I'd endeavor to get accurate temperature readings, and adjust as needed. I'd *guess* the enclosure is too cool, but I base that only on the regurge and slow digestion. An accurate thermometer will give you a reading that will answer what to do.

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She does her regular post-meal defecation about 3 - 4 days after feeding, but sometimes she also does a much smaller one the day before (or in this case, day of) the next feeding.

As for the temps, I meant that the thermostat is set to 80 on the cool side and 90 on the warm side. That is the temperature of the glass bottom where the probe is. The substrate temperatures (where the snake would actually lay on) stay within 73 - 75 on the cool side and 83 - 85 on the warm side (checked with a temp gun). I've set the thermostats to these levels to combat the cold weather, because if I don't, the UTHs have a difficult time reaching ideal temps. I also have a separate digital thermometer probe tied to each thermostat probe as a fall back.

Last night I did another check and noticed that the cool side (where she had spent the entire time from feeding to regurge) wasn't getting above 72, so that must have been where the problem was. I ordered a new UTH, as the current one must be weak. In the mean time I raised the thermostat for that side a bit higher and thinned the substrate layer within the hide to compensate until the replacement UTH gets here.

I panicked because this isn't her first winter (it's her 3rd), but this is the first time she's had a negative reaction like that. I'm summing it up to a weakened UTH and hopefully the new one will do a better job.

It shouldn't matter what the cool side temperature is. If she is cold, she will go to the warm side. What was the temp there?

Todd120 said:

It shouldn't matter what the cool side temperature is. If she is cold, she will go to the warm side. What was the temp there?

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The warm side has ranged from 79 to mid/upper 80s. Currently, it is at 82 and warming up.

Do you think that hide size might be a factor? The cool hide is a bit snugger than the warm hide and she is almost always in the cool hide, even at low temperatures.

You have a UTH set to 80 on the cool side? Sounds like overkill, but would be a good backup in case the main ever went out!

Move the hide she likes best to the warm side. Maybe that will coax her over there. Mine hangs out in the tightest fitting hide most of the time. He tends to burrow down to the mat for the first couple days after eating. Otherwise, he is on the cool side most of the time. It is only 72 to 74 degrees.

What type of substrate do you use?

Forgot to mention. I have a 3rd hide in our tank. It is right in the middle. It sits just off the edge of the heat mat. Temp is in the 75 to 78 range. It is his favorite. It is a tight fitting hide.

Chip said:

You have a UTH set to 80 on the cool side? Sounds like overkill, but would be a good backup in case the main ever went out!

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The cool side's thermostat is set to 80, but the actual heat averages around 73 - 77 because the UTH turns off once it reaches exactly 80 and it cools quickly.

Todd120 said:

Move the hide she likes best to the warm side. Maybe that will coax her over there. Mine hangs out in the tightest fitting hide most of the time. He tends to burrow down to the mat for the first couple days after eating. Otherwise, he is on the cool side most of the time. It is only 72 to 74 degrees.

What type of substrate do you use?

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I'll have to try that!

I use shaved aspen.

A UTH isn't necessary for the cool side, if the warm side isn't sitting at 85-87° consistently then I would blame a faulty UTH or one that is too small. What size is the viv, and what is the size of the UTH?

Even if the cool side dips dramatically, as long as the warm side is in the mid-upper 80s the snake will find his happy place.

And tight fitting hides are best. They like to feel something on their sides and back while they are in the hides. If a hide is a little large, a piece of crumpled up newspaper or paper towel in there with him will make him feel more secure.

Keep us posted, I am interested to see how this pans out.

smigon said:

A UTH isn't necessary for the cool side, if the warm side isn't sitting at 85-87° consistently then I would blame a faulty UTH or one that is too small. What size is the viv, and what is the size of the UTH?

Even if the cool side dips dramatically, as long as the warm side is in the mid-upper 80s the snake will find his happy place.

And tight fitting hides are best. They like to feel something on their sides and back while they are in the hides. If a hide is a little large, a piece of crumpled up newspaper or paper towel in there with him will make him feel more secure.

Keep us posted, I am interested to see how this pans out.

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Viv is 27 gallon and I use the medium-sized Reptitherms.

It worries me, because when there's no heat, the temperature can get as low as the 50s within the viv, so that's why I have two UTHs. I had just changed them about a month or two ago to a larger size (it might have been you or someone else on another thread who recommended going up a size when I had to resort to a heat lamp to get temperatures up), but it looks like one of them is indeed faulty. No matter how high I set it to, the temperature wouldn't get above the low 70s. I just received its replacement in the mail today, however.

Last night she moved from the cool hide to the warm and this morning has relocated to the cool side. I switched out the warm hide for something smaller today to see if that changes things.

I would say wait with feeding at least until you have stabilized the temps... not sure if that has been mentioned here but that's what I woudl do at this moment.. good luck!

Update!

She spent the last two days hunting, which I haven't really seen her do in several weeks; possibly related to the prior lack of heat? She made a little poo/urate again today (about the size of an M&M). I fed her a hopper head about 20 minutes ago. Her favorite hide is on the warm side and a piece of mailing tube serves as the new, smaller hide on the cool side. An infrared reading tells me that the temps are currently at 76 (cool) & 84 (warm) and right now she's substrate diving.

I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that she doesn't spit up that head! I'll be spending the next two or three days in suspense. :headbang:

Sounds good. It's good she is more active now. You would think that she would be fine now.