Cohabbing Misfortunes.

I would like to address the subject of co-habbing so you can have more or for that matter, putting in so many cages that you are using up floor space as was mentioned. I breed snakes. I keep them in separate cages that measure 36 X 18 X 14 for the smaller species and young of larger species and I keep adult arboreals in 48 X 24 X 24 cages. Babies of any species are kept in a rack in shoebox sized containers...separately. I've never, ever co-habbed babies at any time. I need to have numbers and keep track of when they shed etc. If I have no more space, I have no more snakes...period. I will not risk the health of my snakes because I WANT. Never! I keep my snakes in naturalistic cages with plenty of space because I feel that it is important for them to have that. I was at the show today and was talking to a couple that were looking at some of my hatchinglings. They had bought a pair from a petstore some years before and were told it was okay to co-habitate them. The male eventually died because he didn't want to eat and obviously was stressed. They didn't know. Again: There are no good reasons to cohabitate. NONE except for the benefit of the human. There are many, many reasons not to.

MegF. said:

I would like to address the subject of co-habbing so you can have more or for that matter, putting in so many cages that you are using up floor space as was mentioned. I breed snakes. I keep them in separate cages that measure 36 X 18 X 14 for the smaller species and young of larger species and I keep adult arboreals in 48 X 24 X 24 cages. Babies of any species are kept in a rack in shoebox sized containers...separately. I've never, ever co-habbed babies at any time. I need to have numbers and keep track of when they shed etc. If I have no more space, I have no more snakes...period. I will not risk the health of my snakes because I WANT. Never! I keep my snakes in naturalistic cages with plenty of space because I feel that it is important for them to have that. I was at the show today and was talking to a couple that were looking at some of my hatchinglings. They had bought a pair from a petstore some years before and were told it was okay to co-habitate them. The male eventually died because he didn't want to eat and obviously was stressed. They didn't know. Again: There are no good reasons to cohabitate. NONE except for the benefit of the human. There are many, many reasons not to.

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Do you think there are benefits to housing adults in drawers in racks, compared to naturalistic vivs? How do you know the snake died of stress from being co-habbed? Maybe it was just not meant to be and would have died anyway, like some do that are housed alone... you assume he did because you are biased. It might have been the cause, but you bring it as a fact. What would you say if a snake refused to eat in one of your vivs and I'd say; I co-hab snakes and they do eat, it died because you housed it alone?

As I said multiple times, not co-habbing and not keeping them in drawers is the best way to go, obviously. But I'm pretty sure many breeders which are against co-habbing, do keep snakes in drawers. IMO that has disadvantages compared to keeping them in spacious groups too, yet they do.

Are there any good reasons to keep and breed snakes at all, except for the benefit of ourselves? Of course not, but we just draw the lines at different places.

Nope, no benefits to housing in drawers and I don't do it. How do you quarantine if you cohab? If you do quarantine new animals, then they are in separate cages and presumably a different area all together. Therefore you must have space. I've never had a non feeder in adults (except at breeding time), only babies and that's only been 3 out of hundreds. I know that people have removed snakes from cohabbing situations and had them thrive where they didn't before. I've never heard of anyone putting them together to make them thrive. I was merely stating a fact that this guy's two snakes did not do well. One did all right, the other did not. It never had a chance to see if it would do better alone or not because someone told him it was fine. Obviously something was not. Yours are doing okay but I can tell you that you are raising snakes that are indigenous to this country and I live where they are found naturally. I am telling you that I have NEVER found a cornsnake or any other species of snake together. It's not natural and it makes no sense if you look at it. Food is hard to come by. Snakes generally hunt for weeks for food before finding it. Two snakes in the same area compete for single prey items. Not a good idea. Spreading out and staying away from each other makes the chances of each finding food better. They don't hunt in packs so there's no benefit to staying together. They don't fight off predators together so there's no benefit for protection. If you choose to cohabitate...do it. I personally don't think it's in the animals' best interest. As for breeding...sure, it's for us. It's also so that I don't have to go out in the wild and further decimate the population so that YOU can have a pet cornsnake. I can breed them here and provide healthy captive babies for the next child or adult who would like to enjoy wonders of snakes. I also keep extremely rare snakes that would not be found outside their native countries if I didn't try to breed them in captivity to make them accessible. There are more reasons than just making money at it.

Yet breeding (rare) snakes to provide them to others is for the interest of people, and you also do it because you want something; protect the wild snakes. Of course it is a noble goal, yet it is your goal and it makes you feel good. Not saying that is a bad thing to do and it is a better reason to breed than just for commerce or because you feel like it, but it is not for the snakes benefit only. (I do believe people do anything they do for themselves but that is a different topic)

Of course in the wild there is no benefit for corns to get together, yet in captivity they do not have to fight off predators and they do not have to compete for food. Maybe their instincts still tell them to avoid others, but as long as they are well fed and save, they might just as well feel ok around other snakes. Why don't they desperately try to avoid each other all the time when put together? When I introduce two snakes, I hardly see any sign they really want to avoid each other. Many times the one introduced in the viv of another one gets into the hide the other one is after a short exploration of the viv. Never saw any sign of a fight going on.

Thanks for saying you actually don't know why the co-habbed snake died.

I do quarantine but in the same room. I do have single housed corns, so if I plan to buy a yearling or adult I re-home a single housed snake and put the new one in its viv. I use Herpteks, they have no gaps and I clean/feed/change their water after I have done the rest so I think that is safe enough. Of course quarantaining in another room would be perfect but I am not perfect. You are closer to being a perfect keeper, I do admit that.

I admit that some snakes thrive better when housed alone. I won't try to co-hab a single housed fussy eater though since it might have a virus after all.

What about many people saying these Dutch/German yearlings are so large? Are you able to consider the thought maybe the whole 'competition' thing might actually stimulate them to grow faster instead of stressing them out? We don't feed them more often, actually I don't feed my hatchlings every 4-5 days as many American people seem to do. Something must cause the accelarated growing.

I hadn't heard about the Dutch/German snakes being larger. I don't feed as often so mine stay smaller for longer but I've found it depends upon the morph. My locality animals were always larger than any other morphs excepting my amels and snows. It's possible that outcrossing occurs more often in Europe. Here in the US Rhodesian Ridgebacks are consistantly larger than the S. African ones mostly because we outcross so much. Makes for larger animals. Snakes don't avoid each other because they can't in a viv. There is a hide....there are two animals that need it. Perhaps competition does increase size. In the wild the one that can't compete dies so the larger stronger animals survive. That's survival of the fittest so perhaps you have something there. You don't change genetic instinct though. If your cornsnake got loose tomorrow it would survive if temperatures remained in the levels it needs. Even snakes fed f/t prey know how to hunt live. That doesn't go away. No more than raising a wolf in captivity reduces the instincts of the wolf. I just think that animals adapt to situations. Some do better than others at it and some species are hardier and able to deal with it better as well. I think in this case, we'll agree to disagree and keep the thread in the spirit of what it began as. A thread about things that have happened to people who have co-habitated.

In that case; I co-hab and nothing happened to me

Sounds like a support group! Hi, I'm Snake Around....and I'm a co-habber....but nothing happened! LOL!

Hehe you nasty

Im co-habiting too, breeder who raised my girls have a group of corns housed together, 4 years old mother of my girls, two females one year old, and 4 young ones, she have baby ball python who often curls with her oldest corn, they doesnt seems to mind about each other, eat and grow ok, my girls are housed together so far, if i see that they dont eat or it seems that they have some problem, i will separate them. In Croatia, snake dont often co-habit, all species where kept on their own, but corn snakes are often kept together, females mainly.

kells said:

Im co-habiting too, breeder who raised my girls have a group of corns housed together, 4 years old mother of my girls, two females one year old, and 4 young ones, she have baby ball python who often curls with her oldest corn, they doesnt seems to mind about each other, eat and grow ok...

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Brilliant!

SnakeAround said:

Hehe you nasty

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kells said:

Im co-habiting too, breeder who raised my girls have a group of corns housed together, 4 years old mother of my girls, two females one year old, and 4 young ones, she have baby ball python who often curls with her oldest corn, they doesnt seems to mind about each other, eat and grow ok, my girls are housed together so far, if i see that they dont eat or it seems that they have some problem, i will separate them. In Croatia, snake dont often co-habit, all species where kept on their own, but corn snakes are often kept together, females mainly.

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Well well well since this thread started nearly a year ago, SnakeAround can no longer say that nothing has happened, as she had a death that a few of us feel was a direct result of co habbing. Then she showed some pics of her set up, and the vivs shown were large enough to house ONE animal comfortably.

Kells, I just don't know what to say. The breeder you got your animals from really is not a good keeper if she is keeping that many together in a cage, unless the cage she is using is as big as a bedroom. You say you are housing a snake and a ball python together, and that they seem fine. Since corn snakes and ball pythons come from different parts of the world, and require totally different temps and humidity, keeping them together means that one or both of your snakes are not having even their BASIC needs met. They should be seperated at once, keeping them in one cage is being cruel to one or both of them. Also, you say you see no problem with the snakes you keep together. Well that is wonderful, but in nature an animal that is sick or stressed often shows no signs because a sign of weakness means instant death. And stress is a silent killer. The enviroment your snakes are forced to live in is probably shortening their lives. They will most likely die much sooner than they should.

I reread Kells post and it seems I misread that part about the corn snake and the ball python living together. It is the BREEDER she got her animals from who does that. Obviously, that "breeder" does not know very much about snakes AT ALL and anyone wanting a snake as a pet should run away from that "breeder" as fast as they can.

I just told how her keeps her snakes, i dont know why should anybody answer in sarcastic way, i think that if someone have something to say it should write , but puting a smilie just to coment it look a bit imature

I woud have to agree with Bethany.....keeping any snakes together except for breeding purposes is not healthy for them...keeping completely different species together that require different things is even worse....I can see disaster in the future....Aside from the chance of the disease spread....indiscriminate breeding over and over again will kill a female off. I always give females at least 2 years off between breedings. Occasionally I've bred two years in a row, but never more than that, and only if the female recovered well.

To be honest I don't see anything sarcastic about Starevols comment. She is right. Ball Pythons and corns require very different housing and if the "breeder" doesn't know this then I would have serious doubts about the breeder.

kells said:

I just told how her keeps her snakes, i dont know why should anybody answer in sarcastic way, i think that if someone have something to say it should write , but puting a smilie just to coment it look a bit imature

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Actually Airenlow's smilie responce was trying to be nice compared to what he was really thinking I am sure.

Yes, you told us how she keeps her snakes. NO SNAKES should EVER be kept that way. It is a horrible way to keep snakes. And she is a breeder, someone who should KNOW better!!

If she really does keep her snakes that way, she should not be keeping snakes at all, nevermind breeding them!!

She put her ball sometimes with corns, i would do something like that with my snakes, my ball is in her own terrarium, in europe, it is custom to co-habits the corns, same sex pairs or group of females in large enclousure, other species are housed on their own, but corns are often co-habiting

kells said:

She put her ball sometimes with corns, i would do something like that with my snakes, my ball is in her own terrarium, in europe, it is custom to co-habits the corns, same sex pairs or group of females in large enclousure, other species are housed on their own, but corns are often co-habiting

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It might be a custom, but it is a BAD custom.
But they are your snakes, you will do what you want.
But what you are doing is not good for them at all.
I feel really sad for them.

starsevol said:

Actually Airenlow's smilie responce was trying to be nice compared to what he was really thinking I am sure.

Yes, you told us how she keeps her snakes. NO SNAKES should EVER be kept that way. It is a horrible way to keep snakes. And she is a breeder, someone who should KNOW better!!

If she really does keep her snakes that way, she should not be keeping snakes at all, nevermind breeding them!!

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she referd about that vivarium, as a experiment, she is a friend of a friend so i didnt bought them, my girls were gift to me

kells said:

she referd about that vivarium, as a experiment, she is a friend of a friend so i didnt bought them, my girls were gift to me

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Snakes are living breathing creatures that can feel stress and pain, she does not need to be playing scientist with them!!
But like I said, they are your snakes to harm.