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The Scaleless Corn Poll

What do you think of the Scaleless Corns

  • I like them and would like to have them

    Votes: 43 32.8%

  • I hate them and would never have them

    Votes: 50 38.2%

  • I'm undecided........so maybe??

    Votes: 38 29.0%
  • Total voters
    131
kgmax1228 said:
That is a drawing - not a photo :nope:
Click to expand...

If it's a drawing, well, it's actually a digitally stored image of a drawing, my cerebral cortex just imploded. Where can I find out what one feels like??? And why is OldSchool wearing gloves in the pics of the scaleless wonderserpent? Inquiring minds...(and all that mess)...
 
dave partington said:
If it's a drawing, well, it's actually a digitally stored image of a drawing, my cerebral cortex just imploded. Where can I find out what one feels like??? And why is OldSchool wearing gloves in the pics of the scaleless wonderserpent? Inquiring minds...(and all that mess)...
Click to expand...
Dave, that's what I'm saying. It said on the french site "Reptilis" that they feel like the softest geckos. Soft, dry, sensitive, velvety skin... ;) :eek: :spinner:
And, incidentally, will be at a show in Hamm on 12 December.
But on THAT site it does not mention emoryi at all. One is totally lead to believe that they are of corn origin only.
I have embraced the fact that I have to coexist on the planet with hybrids,...and some are even extremely not ugly,...but I would prefer the frank (pardon the pun ;) ) truth.
 
Oh man it's a shame that even though I'm Canadian I can only barely understand some french.... Anyone care to translate the article or know of a similar article in English?

The only scaleless I saw was BHB scaleless rat babies at the CRBE. I felt them and they were weird, but still to small and bony to REALLY get an idea of what a nice fat healthy scaleless would feel like. Perhaps someday...

Thanks for posting that link!
Rebecca
 
Rebecca, just copy and paste it into the altavista - babelfish thingy, and follow the directions. French to English.

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

Of course, you'll find shortly, formal french, with no colloquialisms or slang, works much better in the translator.

pgr8dnlvr said:
I felt them and they were weird, but still to small and bony to REALLY get an idea of what a nice fat healthy scaleless would feel like. Perhaps someday...
Click to expand...
You are talking about colubrids, right?
 
vetusvates said:
You are talking about colubrids, right?
Click to expand...

HAHHAHA, yup ;) A nice big fat adult corn has SOME meat to it, where tiny hatchlings just don't have the same "feel". Thanks for the hint on the article. The translation worked very well for me!

So from the article I gleaned that the creator seems to feel there is a lower fertility rate with these animals, but he is not sure if it is due to the scaleless feature or the "intergrade" feature. I certainly have not found my creamsicles having a lower fertility, if anything it is one of my MOST fertile morphs. Strange..

Also I have talked to Brian and Lori a few times about the scaleless and of course, there wasn't really anything mentioned about low fertility, I guess that was a very important question one may have wanted to ask, my bad! lol! I saw the one snakebytes episode that mentioned the scaleless were regurging a bit, but was that due to heavy feeding since Bhb would have definitely wanted to get these guys ready to go as quick as possible, or is it physical problem?

People who actually have scaleless animals seem sure that these animals are perfectly normal in every way OTHER than the lack of scales, but wow, what a hard decision for one to make. Guess I may want to wait a bit longer on this one. Maybe time will help with the decision in the future. It's sometimes very hard for one to seperate fact from oppinion on matters like these...

Rebecca
 
Article

pgr8dnlvr said:
Oh man it's a shame that even though I'm Canadian I can only barely understand some french.... Anyone care to translate the article or know of a similar article in English?

The only scaleless I saw was BHB scaleless rat babies at the CRBE. I felt them and they were weird, but still to small and bony to REALLY get an idea of what a nice fat healthy scaleless would feel like. Perhaps someday...

Thanks for posting that link!
Rebecca
Click to expand...

Here is the translated article. here are a few "gaps" and sort of wierd areas ("labial scales"), this is where pictures were in the article and they didn't copy in the paste. The meat is the article anyway. I have corresponded with the originator a few times, my French isn't very good. I was hopeful the original animals were still alive so that test trials could or were being performed to determine if the trait came from the corn or emoryi. No such luck, the originator said that both original parents were perished. So, no way to have the old "Ultramel swithcaroo" on this one huh, lol.

All Firstly, I can start this article without warm thanks to the people without that my work could have lead.

Rousselle Stéphane of the Reptilis breeding centre with that I share since long a strong passion for the Colubridés and particularly Pantherophis guttatus. Its availability, its support and his valuable advice on farming really helped me to make progress in this pojet.

Nicholas Horseman of NH reptiles / Reptiligne which has also much worked in this project, in proposing starting to BHB Enterprises (USA) for three years. This crazy bet resulted on a partnership that benefits just helped me create Colubiasnakes. Do in I it never quite reconaissant!

Brian Barczyk of BHB Enterprises which took the audacity to believe in this new phenomenon at a time where all the "investors" turn quickly to the countless royal Python or the BOA constricteur and other phases Boïdés. I really hope to meet him one day to for him Express oral my recognition.


has all those that, one way or another, have helped me in this project , including those that knew these animals in 2006 and respected my desire to privacy.

thanks to you Christophe Pogona Premium for your listening and your understanding of this course. That would have I done without thee?

thanks to you Francky , who have had to stop me reassure and encourage me.

thank you Nicolas Easy Snakes and Romain for your help and without which the video "Destination Terrario" does not exist.

thanks to you as my ptiSeb for tone helps all start that I did never oublirai


Finally, I cannot forget to thank my wife Martine which has always respected my passion for these animals funny are the snake. Without understanding, his benevolence and support, I would have had the force jamsis It all!
The wheat serpent


(Pantherophis guttatus) is today among the reptiles the more emblematic of the Terrariophilie. Size small, rugged, colourful and with a peaceful temperament, this snake took a prominent place in the heart of enthusiasts. In addition, its ease of livestock has made a pionière in the era of genetic mutation.

There is now among the many selections livestock serpent and genetic mutations (called "phases".) They are often originally the fruit of hazard, and later the result of a meticulous selection or a goal led calculation job.

As regards Patherophis guttatus, until recently, the work was either on the colors ("albinos", "anerythristic") ("hypomelanstic", etc.), either on the grounds of the dress ("motley", "striped", "diffused", etc.) In addition, It was possible to combine all these results, which has made exponential This snake nice genetics.

It is in the United States, the case that the serpent farming original country of wheat took boom (since the 1960s.) Then, the phenomenon has won Europe and many other countries, so that today ' today of farms exist everywhere. In new, American farmers have grace monopoly their long experience - they are still raising the wheat serpent since nearly fifty years!

However, much time the work of European farmers has reserved property beautiful surprises in Pantherophis guttatus, thus contributing to farming the success of this adventure around the world.

From this observation, it is easy to get account as the project Serpent of the wheat breeding hanteront landings nights with terrariophiles for many years!

The "scaleless" phenomenon





The term "scaleless" means "without skin."

A serpent without scales, is this possible? How can such immaginer disability for an animal which de facto have scales on the body a licence that he shares our planet since about 140 million years?

During this time, its scales helped move effectively in any type of environment and even in the water (which, without Member or fin) (was not self-evident.)

They are also a valuable shield against bites and other injuries parasites attacks.

Finally, what about the role of the scales in the Organization of the livery guaranteeing the camouflage in many species?

Finally, without its scales valuable, our serpent would may not be Su find its place and keep it in the evolution of the espècs!

And yet, and yet...

A poignant event.

Fascinated by animals and in particular the snake since childhood, I have discovered at the end of the years Terrariophilie four eighty. I was then no intention to reproduce my residents who were of "shots of" "heart" purchased in facility. We must also say that, at this time, for a simple amateur simply to keep in captivity to Reptiles in good health on a long-term constituted a great challenge.

My first birth came as well later in 1998, with a reproduction of Royal Pythons obtained by chance. AT this point I maintenais between other guttatus Pantherophis and Pantherophis emoryi who were still classified in the wheat serpent subspecies. (It appointed them at the time) ("Elaphe guttatus guttatus"and"turtle emoryi Elaphe".)

Of the union of two of these snakes, a "guttatus" and "emoryi" came a nesting many eggs does developed not. Remember that at this time, my animals were not at all prepared the reproduction, both in terms of the Antarctic from that of hibernation, could explain the poor result.

On the three only live eggs at the end of incubation, type babies "emoryi" competitions. It therefore remained an egg to eclore. Four days passed. Then, the evening of the fourth, throwing a quick glance at my couveuse, I live my broke egg and a strange head that exceeded.
On the time, I is prétais that little attention; it is the next day that I was going to have the surprise of my life...

When, the next morning, this famous 4 October 2002, I revins to my couveuse,. the serpent was not always out of his egg. I observai it more closely and it seemed strange, with its strange pale muzzle. I préssentais something really abnormal but it was impossible to know what It was.
It was until late afternoon, tenaillé by the impatience I craquai and decided to get out of his egg. I knew that it was not recommended to do but it was stronger than me, I could not wait.

USING a pair of scissors nail, I enlarged the crack made by the Snake, and then I fendis eggshell parcheminée on most of its length.I am rendis account something clochait: the serpent had something bizzare as if it had not completed its development. However, it was Indeed alive and ready to go out!

Infinite carefully I out of the egg and I had a first shock: its color and his reasons were unusual. It was difficult to describe. It was the yellow of purple, gray more or less clear and all this had tend to be mix. Tasks were also surprising: they are shared between them, zigzaguaient and sometimes formed lines on the flanks. But this was especially this muzzle blue sky bright éveilla my attention.The head had a bluish green hue in purple grayscale. I was crazy joy: how could we expect such colors on a simple "Gutt"?

I installai my treasure in a small plastic box type "Fauna" "box", valiant ancètre of me current boxes livestock, with paper wipes all and a small ramequin water.

An hour later, I revins see my serpent that seemed to be perfectly delivered this speech. It was very beautiful this day there and brightness my room was optimal. I decided manipulate a second time. I the gently caught in my hands and rendis of the window to places to take advantage. I had this very moment the shock of my life: this Serpent had bare skin.

Error incubation or genetic mutation?

Once my calm found, I am put in search of information about naked snake. Much of questions came me to mind. Was this Serpenteau viable? Was there other cases of naked snake in the world? Was - this due to an error incubation or well was it a particuliarité of genetic origin?And why not two combined reasons?

Curiously, I quickly enough obtins some answers. Since not still connected to the Internet at that time, I am tournais to the few books I have then. Only one of them, "Snake" some Editions Artemis talked about this phenomenon in a named chapter "Teratology", written by Gilbert Matz.

I learned is that the "scaleless" phenomenon was a genetic mutation recessive and that he had already been met in different species as Milk calligaster, Thamnophis SSP, Pantherophis lindheimeri obsoletus and .. .Pantherophis guttatus.

Subsequently, in my research on the Internet, I found a few rare photos showing naked snake belonging to some of the species above, as well as other species, but no the wheat serpent.

My research orientèrent also on American scientific reports relatively complex on this change. I learned that the first "scaleless" had been found in the natural environment. It was very limited number of species Pituophis melanoleucus individuals catenifer and Nerodia sipedon. These animals were scientific studies on their metabolism. According to what had been given to me to understand, the absence partial chips do NFS only very slightly on it, especially in material évaproration water and heat exchanges.

Thus, the absence of scales was not incompatible to their survival even if this were to make them more fragile and especially more available by the predators.

It is indeed more appropriate to speak of "lack" "of scales" rather than to lack itself. Indeed, to date,. any "scaleless" has a minimum of scales:

-the ventrales scales
-skin labiales and eye.

In addition, some scales are often present (in limited numbers, sometimes) (the report traces) mid back and at the tail.

These are also useful for the happy possésseur a Naked Snake because they are most often the only reliable with Visual link corresponding here.

* Note: "scaleless" change of skin as any What other serpent. It is very logically an exuvia without scales that we found next to the freshly mué animal. Similarly, individuals "scaleless" have a "normal" skin consists of layers external and internal. In this sense, certain fanciful statements According to which these animals suffer skin "to live" have is no sense. In a Word, "scaleless" skin is comparable to that of the Leopard Gecko whose original biotope and ease of maintenance tend to show that a reptile can have smooth skin without anything to him a disability.

One genetic future?

After my first évaporées fears, especially as regards the powered, I réalisai little by little chance I had had, as well as the potential of a such Serpent (a small male Furthermore). Filled by this discovery, and enough proud we have to say, it was unthinkable do not want to go far away.

The following year in reproducing the same parents, I had the joy of harvesting two other "babies scaleless" in conditions of reproduction better controlled. They were of different color. The female had tones dark grey and white (a little way to a "anerythristic") with the nose bluish, while the male was black and yellow-orange hues.With age, the female became orange brown with dark grey pattern, always with the muzzle bluish. The male, he became totally orange-high heat and black. As to my first specimen after by different nuances, it eventually display a pink-orange dress with a sustained black tasks.

The year 2004 was a failure, probably due to move at the beginning of season reproduction or even a bad incubation.

In 2005, I was well lucky ones with seven new babies without scales which most had a red-light dress with tasks more or less cerclées of black.

In 2006, four others saw the day.

In 2007, 15 babies colours ranging from the Ochre-yellow to red dark almost through various shades of Orange, and always with varied reasons.

And so on the following years...

These successive births in a same line, and then click lines different attest the resolutely genetic nature of this phenomenon. It would well be also a recessive gene as there are individuals "scaleless" and "hétérozygotes scaleless."

Even if my naked snake fertility rate seems amoindri compared in other phases (personal observations to confirm), it is in remains "scaleless" indivdus products within my livestock are the work of genetics, are perfect apparent health and are quite able to give progeny! If the number of eggs pondus seems lower than the wheat serpent classic, it is can be any of course the consequence of the crossing with its close cousin Pantherophis emoryi, much less prolific.

It is for me to this difficult to establish precise rules day and sustainable as the terms and conditions of operation of the "scaleless" gene because even after seven years of experience, I do not have the necessary decline.

In this regard, I can only make assumptions and conclusions based on experience in this case:

-the absence (or rather lack) scales is the result of a recessive; gene so there is a "scaleless" and the "hétérozygotes scaleless";

-babies "scaleless" have apparament not more health problems as other snake.

-This change meets at the both sexes;

-both sexes are fertile;

-This mutation is transmitted on different lines;

-This gene can be combined with other genes (the future will tell if all genes known to date can be) (combine with him);

-all my naked snake originate of accouplment "scaleless X hétéro scaleless" or even "hétéro" "scaleless hétéro scaleless X". The first "scaleless X" pontes "scaleless" took place this year. Placed in couveuse they should making in a few weeks...

-the official name from Naked Snake my livestock is "Pantherophis guttatus SP scaleless" because the sequence first is the result of the cross between guttatus and Pantherophis Pantherophis emoryi. It is therefore not of "pure" the bés snake but it does can not all fat be regarded as "pure and hard" hybrids in the image of the "jungle corn" (Pantherophis guttatus X milk) (SSP) It would be more appropriate vrissemblablement to look at them as the "ex-intergrades", of the phases "creamsicle",. "rootbeer" and other "cinamon".

However, if some "purists" want to categorize these snake and their progeny "guttisée" to the rank of hybrids, this is respect in the light of the current taxonomy which defines guttatus Pantherophis and Pantherophis emoryi in two distinct species. Let their thus this freedom.


Conclusion

Not only Naked Snake exist, but some of them are perfectly able to live and breed in captivity. With the arrival such animals in enthusiasts, the wheat serpent farming trays might well hang a new dimension because this revolutionary gene is still far from we have delivered all its secrets.

"Gamble in the immense genetics, this change also casino" surprising that fabulous is a new deal where each drawn card "certainly lead its player poker time."






















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Of juveniles of the 2009 season will soon be available at Colubiasnakes and the Reptilis breeding centre. Don't hesitate to contact us if it you interested.

This is the children! I hope that this has pleased. Some of you will find this new fabulous mutation. Others will say that it is against nature and that this should not exist. It is, it is important to respect the views of each because the Terrario is not a dictatorship where it would exist only a way to see things.

That invite the Scaleless in enthusiasts trays, it is a thing.However, this does return never in question extraordinary projects past, present and future, that represent our current the wheat snake!

A very soon!
 
I LIKE them. Everyone here is screaming hybrid- hybrid- hybrid... yes they are a hybrid- they are CREAMSICLES ... our hobby is filled with creamsicles...and let's not even touch the corn hybrid issue- alot of evidence pointing towards teh ultra gene coming from grey rats- IF that's true, well, we don't need to go there.

I think once the price comes down alot people will really get into them. It's easy fro someone to scoff at a $6K snake (isn't that the current market price from BHB?). These things eat fine...shed fine...act like any other corn (lol- or creamsicle corn).

I think they'll be popular! Only time will tell- everyone is entitled to their own opinions!
 
StrangeCargo said:
I think once the price comes down alot people will really get into them. It's easy fro someone to scoff at a $6K snake (isn't that the current market price from BHB?). These things eat fine...shed fine...act like any other corn (lol- or creamsicle corn).
Click to expand...

I worry if someone "forgot" to tell us they are hybrids, how much credence can we put into the statements that they are "no different from corns with scales?" What else has been forgotten to be passed on to the general US market? What else is commonly known over there that we don't know about yet? All of this pretty much has me convinced that their price WILL crash like a sky rocket unless none actually sell, so they can't afford to drop the price. One or the other is the future I see in my cracked crystal ball. Either way, I wouldn't invest any CASH in them today even if they were only $1000 and the US economy was booking like the end of the Reagan era!
KJ
 
granted the first isn't a corn but does it look happy to you!!!!!!!!!
it looks like it sucks to even live!!

they look cool and my husband had tatted a hairless cat before(with scales) i mean you could make a permanent pattern over otherwise ugly snakes

at the same time i agree you shouldn't mess with nature people are going to start breeding monstrosities simply to gok at, their whole life would be a joke!! who would ever not want to be taken seriously because of the way they are born
 

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Hmmm

I think they look pretty cool, but wouldnt get any.
I once entered one of my Neon Snow Corns in best looking snake contest at a show ,I thought for sure I had a good chance of winning.
No other snake had the color mine did,I was really disappointed when a two headed Cali King Snake Won 1st place.
I think the owners ended up selling that animal for BIG bucks!
Working hard at making really nice color, healthy new morphs takes alot of Time and Luck! When a freak animal with two heads gets more attention, is kinda frustrating.
As far as Hybrid I guess they are from some ratsnake family probably Blackrat? Not sure.
 
stephen said:
I think they look pretty cool, but wouldnt get any.
As far as Hybrid I guess they are from some ratsnake family probably Blackrat? Not sure.
Click to expand...

Steve,
your are right about rat snake and it's Emory. It is no different than Creamsicles, which have been in the hobby for MANY years and there are ALOT of big breeders who produce Creamsicles ;)
I for one really like them !!

There is a background write-up on the Scaleless somewhere in this thread if you are interested.

Walter,
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
I voted I like them and want one even though I have never seen a pic of one. Why? I like hybrids. Hybrids happen in the wild. I plan on breeding hybrids, and regular corns. Mine will all be marked. I will not sell an animal that I am not sure because I either forgot to mark or the mark came off.

I find it funny. People call crossing snakes hybrids and many say they are abominations, its the same with interratial people. Why are folks so into purity on everything. If it lives, is healthy, and is not in pain from its hybridization, what's the problem? Now I could see if something that is a hybrid is produced having health issues over and and over then there is a problem, but the hybrids I have heard of to date have all been healthy happy (far as we can tell) animals. :shrugs:
 
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