Another poster child for the death penalty

vetusvates said:

Not to step out of line, but I think Nova is talking about "redemption" in the loosest sense of the word. Redeeming one's self to one's particular culture's accepted norms.

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Yeah, pretty much. The idea or notion that you can overcome the things that you've done wrong. The man in the OP showed that he didn't. The two men who were killed for being 'sex offenders' because when they were teenagers they had sex with teenage girls had done nothing wrong. Two stark sides to the idea of death = justice.

The man in the OP wouldn't have killed that boy if he had been institutionalized, or recognized as a dangerous offender. Executing convicts isn't the only way to keep people safe. It's not even an effective way of keeping people safe. For what is spent on executions, a lot more could be done with that money in terms of victim support, offender therapy, and even simply crime prevention.

I'd rather the 'mistake' of institutionalizing an innocent than the 'mistake' of executing an innocent. And both keep dangerous predators away from the general populace. The only real difference is one doesn't satisfy a desire for revenge, and the other does.

Question that just occurred to me:

In your world where capital punishment is used more liberally because it is real justice and keeps innocents safe, what justice would you give the friends and family of an innocent that was executed?

Nova, I think you have the wrong idea about how often the death penalty is actually used in our country- its not exactly a common punishment. I also thinking in Canada you have no clue what it is like to live in an area where violent crimes happen frequently. Crime prevention in a society that doesn't care about consequences doesn't work-this is an American reality. I live between Baltimore and DC two of the highest crime areas in our country. Gang violence, robbery, rape, and murder are all I hear about on the news. Mexican and other Latin American gangs have also become prevalent here so OUR societies are quite different. Maybe you should take a job in the US for a year if the culture shock doesn't kill walking around alone at night will

Nova_C said:

Question that just occurred to me:

In your world where capital punishment is used more liberally because it is real justice and keeps innocents safe, what justice would you give the friends and family of an innocent that was executed?

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Statistically I think the infrequency of this is by far in the lighter pan in the scales of justice....than the families that are victims of violent crimes, including rape, murder, murder of the young, rape of the young, rape AND murder of the young, murdering and hiding of bodies in basements and attics and crawl-spaces and such, assault & robbery and murder, rape of the elderly, murder of the elderly, rape and murder of the elderly, assault and robbery and murder of the elderly, etc., etc., etc.,......

Rape and skinning and sewing the skins of women together to wear, murdering then raping then butchering the bodies of men for immediate cooking for consumption, or for freezing for cooking for consumption later........Ummm, I'm sure I'll think of some more.......perp's lining up to "redeem" themselves, that is......

wstphal said:

I'd rather see questionable situations get life without parole, in case indisputable evidence of innocence is found later.

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I agree. In this case, the family knows he was with the boy and if evidence agrees, I see no reason to keep this human garbage around. Therapy will do him no good because clearly it did no good in his first go round.

LBoz said:

Totally OT, but along the same lines.....I'm absolutely wishing and praying for the DP for the mother of the little girl in NC who was tossed out alongside the highway like a piece of trash.

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I missed that. I don't think I will go look it up.

Nova_C said:

Yeah, pretty much. The idea or notion that you can overcome the things that you've done wrong. The man in the OP showed that he didn't. The two men who were killed for being 'sex offenders' because when they were teenagers they had sex with teenage girls had done nothing wrong. Two stark sides to the idea of death = justice.

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I agree.

The man in the OP wouldn't have killed that boy if he had been institutionalized, or recognized as a dangerous offender. Executing convicts isn't the only way to keep people safe. It's not even an effective way of keeping people safe. For what is spent on executions, a lot more could be done with that money in terms of victim support, offender therapy, and even simply crime prevention.

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You're right. We have the "advocacy group" to thank for that. I honestly think they should be arrested as accessories to murder. It is on THEIR conscience that this animal was loose in our society.

I'd rather the 'mistake' of institutionalizing an innocent than the 'mistake' of executing an innocent. And both keep dangerous predators away from the general populace. The only real difference is one doesn't satisfy a desire for revenge, and the other does.

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No, there is a difference. Case in point, what about people that continue to murder and conduct criminal activities on the inside??

And if a man has had access to 10 years of prison-based "reform", and then less than a year after his release he rapes, and murders a child... what then, Nova? Do we put him back in the joint and continue our attempts at redeeming him?

Or do we finally admit the need to cull this beast from the herd?

Hypancistrus said:

I missed that. I don't think I will go look it up.

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I started a thread, Lauren. Shaniya Davis.....Fayetteville, NC.......

We can send the 5 year old's mother/crackwhore/pimp...AND...the dopedealer/childrapist/childkiller.....both to Canada for rehabbing and redemption.
Ship together, so save on shipping. In fact, I'll even ship to Nova at no charge.

Hypancistrus said:

And if a man has had access to 10 years of prison-based "reform", and then less than a year after his release he rapes, and murders a child... what then, Nova? Do we put him back in the joint and continue our attempts at redeeming him?

Or do we finally admit the need to cull this beast from the herd?

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I think we can agree that there are enough people who cannot be rehabilitated that a permanent solution needs to be found. Where we disagree is at what cost we will allow that solution.

You said on the first page:

Hypancistrus said:

If you have the power to save 120 lives at the expense of 1 (even if it is an innocent) isn't it worth it?

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Do you get to choose? Do you have the authority and the right to point at an innocent and declare to that person, their family, their friends, that they must die so others may live?

I don't believe anyone does. And that is exactly what we're talking about here, only when someone not you does it, it's murder and punishable by death.

Vet: You dodged that question with rhetoric. Mind answering it?

In post #24, that answer is my way of answering. If you can't please/satisfy/succor everyone, then you please/satisfy/succor the majority. In my answer, I put forth that there was a startlingly obvious majority (even obvious to those blind to metaphor), and a startlingly obvious minority (again, even to those unfamiliar to the literary device of metaphors).
As usual, you want to please the minority, by depriving the majority. Interesting. Very interesting. Always for the minority. The underdog. The abused. The taken advantage of. The down-trodden. The exception. Hmmmm.....very very interesting. Whether you realize it or not, Nova, you are providing me with quite the personality profile.
Which wouldn't be nearly so tantalizingly fascinating, except for the fact you so tiresomely insist on giving us no name, no age, no sex, no background, no nothing.......that would make you more human and less of a machine. Although a machine would be more logical, and in the case of multiple possible answers, would weigh them statistically from most likely to least likely. Not so doggedly and exhaustingly an advocate of the exception(s) and/or the minority.
By the way, or incidentally, the enforced anonymity itself only adds to the ease of connection of the dots in the building of a good personality profile.

NOTE : A 'scales of justice', or simply a scales, Nova, is something that, even in metaphor, one uses to weigh things. It tells you what there is less of, what there is more of, or if two things are in equal measure.

vetusvates said:

In post #24, that answer is my way of answering. If you can't please/satisfy/succor everyone, then you please/satisfy/succor the majority. In my answer, I put forth that there was a startlingly obvious majority (even obvious to those blind to metaphor), and a startlingly obvious minority (again, even to those unfamiliar to the literary device of metaphors).

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I disagree with the notion that not allowing the legal victimization of the few, or the minority as you put it, in any way deprives the majority. That is, in this case, capital punishment is not providing anything for any 'majority'.

As usual, you want to please the minority, by depriving the majority. Interesting. Very interesting. Always for the minority. The underdog. The abused. The taken advantage of. The down-trodden. The exception. Hmmmm.....very very interesting. Whether you realize it or not, Nova, you are providing me with quite the personality profile.
Which wouldn't be nearly so tantalizingly fascinating, except for the fact you so tiresomely insist on giving us no name, no age, no sex, no background, no nothing.......that would make you more human and less of a machine.

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I would have thought my age would be obvious as it's right under my avatar. My sex is male, although it's not unusual for people to guess that I'm female on forums (My theory is it has to do with my user name, Nova being feminine (And the name of the girl in Planet of the Apes!)). And I've talked about personal things on this forum before. My heart and kidney issues, my job issues, financial issues. I generally don't use forums as places to complain, nor do I use them to brag...often. (Gun threads notwithstanding). Finally, my name is Jonathan, most just call me Jon, but on forums everyone calls me Nova, even when they know my name. I guess which you would like is up to you.

I hate that I live in a world where this happens, but that can't be stopped. I hate that this person will be let out of prison, and that can be stopped. HE IS GUILTY!!! Honestly, sometimes I feel like there needs to be someone who can discretely do the job that our "judicial system" can not. This guy should not only be killed, but fed to lions or something where he too will have to slowly realize that death is coming.

Disgusting, and I have ZERO ounce of compassion for scum like this. I say they die, and if it were my America, it would be prolonged death!

Nova_C said:

I disagree with the notion that not allowing the legal victimization of the few, or the minority as you put it, in any way deprives the majority. That is, in this case, capital punishment is not providing anything for any 'majority'.

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1) CP is providing death to convicted criminals, the vast majority of whom are effing guilty. I do not in any way want to deprive them of their sentence.
2) CP provides the victims' family and friends and any stranger who happens to be paying attention, like me, with great satisfaction. I do not want deprivation to occur here either.

I would have thought my age would be obvious as it's right under my avatar. My sex is male, although it's not unusual for people to guess that I'm female on forums (My theory is it has to do with my user name, Nova being feminine (And the name of the girl in Planet of the Apes!)). And I've talked about personal things on this forum before. My heart and kidney issues, my job issues, financial issues. I generally don't use forums as places to complain, nor do I use them to brag...often. (Gun threads notwithstanding). Finally, my name is Jonathan, most just call me Jon, but on forums everyone calls me Nova, even when they know my name. I guess which you would like is up to you.

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Why thank you. I feel like I am meeting a friend. And for once, I am not being the least bit facetious. LOL. And I can't decide whether to change to Jon, or stick to the now familiar "Nova". And you,...sharing personal details...?...lordy, lordy,...I've missed that altogether. You know, for the longest I thought hmm, female. But several weeks ago, I said no, no, no. Definitely male. And I can't say precisely why.

I thought maybe you lived in Nova Scotia. I have always wanted to go to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. I'd like to visit Newfoundland, too. I love the "different".

P.S. And you are such a good sport, not taking my slobbery baiting sarcasm to heart, and pushing back in just the right way.
I think I would miss you if you ever left the forum. Most of my good friends in real life are people who I know are not a pushover, are thick-skinned, and know how and when to push back.

I live in Alberta. Calgary, to be specific. My location field here is what it is because of another forum. They have titles there like here, but most people make jokes in the titles and use the location field as an extension of the joke.

In my case, my avatar is the Coyote from Gunnerkrigg Court, literally the mythical Coyote figure, a trickster. One day the moon disappeared and the animals all asked Coyote to be the moon for them. So he did, but up in the sky he could watch all the animals and started telling everyone what they were doing. "Hey, everyone! Look and see what squirrel is doing! That's gross, Mr. Squirrel!" So they all asked him to stop being the moon.

Of course, Coyote never told the animals that it was he who stole the moon in the first place.

Anyway, when Coyote was relating this story in the comic, it started with "I was the moon, once." And Gunnerkrigg Court is leaps and bounds the best webcomic I've ever read, so I pay tribute to it by using Coyote as a piece of my online persona.

I will have to check Gunnerkrigg Court out.
Back in the 1980's, when I was in my 20's, I was young and thin and cute and much sought after. I partied a LOT. From Austin to Houston to Dallas to Memphis to Jackson to New Orleans. But that is all in the past. Sigh...Oh well. Vanity isn't everything. It is good that I was taught that at a very young age.
I am 46 and greying and not so thin and not so cute anymore. But "I was the moon once".
(LOL....that was how I identified with your tagline. Isn't that...amusing? *rolls eyes*)

Lauren, sorry for going so off-topic. Feel free to do the same on any and all of my threads whenever the notion strikes you.

vetusvates said:

Lauren, sorry for going so off-topic. Feel free to do the same on any and all of my threads whenever the notion strikes you.

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In this case, off topic makes for MUCH better reading than on-topic.

I always assumed Nova was a guy due to the movie American Pie and the character (Cassa)Nova who was also a guy. :shrugs:

vetusvates said:

Hmmmm.....very very interesting. Whether you realize it or not, Nova, you are providing me with quite the personality profile.

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Do you do personality profiling for a living? Or do you have to kill me if you answer that question :laugh: